[Yossarian]

I have been thinking about a sister thread to Duncan's very excellent FLMHMF for some time. Something for slightly longer things, in more remote places or that might require the employment of expensive suspended camping equipment. I have resisted until now because it's very ADHD to start planning trips to far-flung locations to undertake complex and dangerous objectives when you can barely organise meeting someone at the wall. And also because it's right at the top of the midlife crisis divorcee climbing bingo card, alongside launching a collection of artisan-cured leather chalk bags, or trying to get Alex Honnold to join your BelayDads WhatsApp group.

So I'm currently maintaining that everything here* is purely for research purposes. Think of this then as a repository for information and media meeting the criteria above, and apologies in advance for any crossover with Duncan's thread. Various people on here have mentioned trips to Kazakhstan, and maybe we can copy those photos in...?

To get the ball rolling...



This route in India has been in the Chuffing vids for a while, and I have watched it a LOT of times. I've been to that part of India and it was great, though when they were there it rains quite a lot. It's obviously not Baffin Island, but I imagine that a hypothetical slightly hopeless 44-year-old who doesn't climb outside that often might end up having a bit of an epic on it.



This looks great in a number of ways, and was what persuaded me to start this thread. I knew there was some bigger stuff in VdiM but assumed it was crazy hard aid. V interested in this...



Really like this guy's channel, esp his recent exploits in Kazakhstan and Patagonia.



Ditto this guy - his POV stuff is great.

Interested to hear what the people on here who actually do this stuff are planning / have done along these lines...

*(I was originally going to call it Ten Crack Commandments, but there are quite enough rock fissure or apertures in general-related things out in the world already.)

[DAVETHOMAS90]

This is an excellent idea, and covers everything from Yarncliffe pinnacle to the Totem Pole.

Like it.

[Yossarian]

I was aiming this at big walls in general vs towers in particular, but I think anything you might be tempted to haul beer up could have honorary status...

[Paul B]

Tsaranoro, Madagascar, is the wildest place I've ever climbed and one that I enjoyed the most:
https://www.theprojectmagazine.com/features/2019/8/6/out-of-africa

I've come to the conclusion that whilst vertical camping seems like fun, it's actually a monumental pain in the ass and I much prefer big things that can be done in a day*. I think this mainly comes from being quite light which makes hauling a significant effort (even at 2:1). Also, whilst I've had some amazing days in the USA, a lot of it was a little tainted by all the bureaucracy and what that actually meant for the climbing; the places I enjoyed the most in the USA were those with the fewest rules (or the rules which weren't repeatedly smacking you in the face every time you tried to do something).

* - I'm willing to stretch this to include an uncomfortable night at the base/mid-height/top for the right objective.

[Yossarian]

I did think about that and in fact your article (which I bookmarked a couple of weeks ago) does a very good job of selling it. I think there is an intersection with Duncan's thread re things that you can either do in a day or leave some rope to get back up to a prev highpoint (which is what they seem to do on Shoshala) which are in quite remote places, so it feels quite exped without having to watch your mate poo into a plastic bag.

Those things in Of Choss and Lions look interesting too, though IIRC there was some issue with some of the bolts disintegrating, which looked pretty scary.

The thing in Italy that JB did with Leo and Ben Pritch with the bolts pulling out also shat me right up when I read about it...

[Johnny Brown]

Hauling ledges etc is fine if you're aid climbing, which is slow and faffy anyway. Even better if you go in a 3 or 4 and can switch tasks. I've not attempted to combine it with free climbing as a pair, but it seems like a ballache. I'd not recommend endless Italian 6mm bolt ladders unless you're planning a rope access managers' team building trip where your boss tragically dies in an unforeseen anchor failure.

Lotus Flower Tower should be very high on the list of any aging trad-dad who's wallet and idle ambitions are swelling as fast as his skills are fading. Fly via Vancouver, drop into Squamish, sample the micro-brews and warm up on The Grand. Then lots of exciting wilderness travel including epic gravel roads, floatplanes, helicopters, plus potential for grizzly bears, moose and actual fucking wolves (none of which you are likely to get close to but let's keep that on the DL). No language issues but gnarly backcountry geezers offer some cultural value. Any and all of which will be perfect fodder for those likes and subscribes before you even post pictures of the basecamp which is one of very few places guaranteed to break your feed while still offering a proper toilet. The route itself is ~18 pitches, mainly HVS-E1 with a few harder pitches (but only two 5c/6a moves you can easily frig), the granite heavily featured with no hideous crack/ thrutch pitches (ok maybe one), and when you fail to get up and down in a day a bothy bag and a space blanket will allow a tolerable bivvy at the summit or spacious half-height ledge. Fully bolted rap line mostly back down the route expedites descent and allows/ encourages backing-off at any point. Travel via Inconnu lodge has upgrade options such as heli-fishing or wilderness banquets with mostly ornamental armed bear guard, and they'll even hire you a sat phone so Kaspar Ruiz-Montano can keep the 'gram stories flowing.

If you actually want to get loads of climbing in on perfect alpine granite and a limited budget the Bugaboos are a much better bet. But fuck that, you're going big or going home right?

[Paul B]

That post is up there with Nige's on Ioan Doyle.

[T_B]

“And also because it's right at the top of the midlife crisis divorcee climbing bingo card”

You clearly move in different circles. Apart from a couple of people that I know who’ve been to Patagonia post kids/divorce, most people seem to either reach for the lycra or head to Spain bolt clipping.

If I had a month off I don’t know if I’d spend it wrecking myself on a big wall or bouldering in Patagonia. Kudos to Glowacz et al, but as Paul/JB says I’d be looking at doing as many IAD long routes as I could, utilising ‘modern tactics’ of lightweight gear to make it more pleasurable. Water is still heavy but all the gear and clothing nowadays is so much lighter.

Somewhere like the Bugaboos would be top of the list or Cali/Zion.

[Paul B]

Somewhere like the Bugaboos would be top of the list or Cali/Zion.

Where was it where heli-rescue isn't a thing anymore? Was it the Bugaboos?

[T_B]

No idea, though I’m not sure that would impact my choice of destination? Maybe it would thesedays. It’s all hypothetical when you’re considering a spring of cleaning up a few more neglected Peak lime trad routes  .

[Paul B]

No idea, though I’m not sure that would impact my choice of destination? Maybe it would these days.

Can I interest you in a dried monkey's paw?

[Johnny Brown]

Where was it where heli-rescue isn't a thing anymore? Was it the Bugaboos?

Can't find anything on google but I doubt it. It is in a part of BC with sizeable towns, lots of ski resorts and people working in the back country etc.

Don't think the Cirque had any offical rescue cover, and it doesn't look like Inconnu lodge operate their own helicopter any more so could be a dear do if you need pulling out or don't want to walk up from the lake. We got upgraded to chopper transfers for free as the floatplane was being serviced.

[Paul B]

Don't think the Cirque had any official rescue cover, and it doesn't look like Inconnu lodge operate their own helicopter any more so could be a dear do if you need pulling out or don't want to walk up from the lake. We got upgraded to chopper transfers for free as the floatplane was being serviced.

I think this was it (from memory).

[Yossarian]

“And also because it's right at the top of the midlife crisis divorcee climbing bingo card”

You clearly move in different circles. Apart from a couple of people that I know who’ve been to Patagonia post kids/divorce, most people seem to either reach for the lycra or head to Spain bolt clipping.

I should probably hash out the rest of that bingo card. I think that, if you've done plenty of adventurous stuff at a sensible age (ie 20s and 30s) then the prospect of extended trips to Spain in a luxury campervan is going to be near the top of the list.

I think that, if you live in London, the top choice would probably be hooking up with a succession of young bouldering and shibari enthusiasts via Feeld and spending your weekends sitting around by the Shoreditch boulder popping strong psychedelics.

Whilst both of those approaches have some appealing aspects, my personal preference would be to aim for some meatier objectives.

[Johnny Brown]

To add to what Tom said, my shortlist of trips I would do given a TradDad window would be:

Hulk etc High Sierra, California
Wind river, Wyoming. Coud do a decent trip in a fortnight.
Long granite routes in the Alps like Motorhead, Westgrat Salbitschijen, Grand Cap. These could be done on a long week trip or less.
Stetind or Lofoten, Norway.

Bugs or LFT is realistically a three weeker, Patagonia more like a month with a very high chance of doing fuck all but watch dreadlocked gappers drink maté.

[GrandBTard]

“And also because it's right at the top of the midlife crisis divorcee climbing bingo card”

You clearly move in different circles. Apart from a couple of people that I know who’ve been to Patagonia post kids/divorce, most people seem to either reach for the lycra or head to Spain bolt clipping.

If I had a month off I don’t know if I’d spend it wrecking myself on a big wall or bouldering in Patagonia. Kudos to Glowacz et al, but as Paul/JB says I’d be looking at doing as many IAD long routes as I could, utilising ‘modern tactics’ of lightweight gear to make it more pleasurable. Water is still heavy but all the gear and clothing nowadays is so much lighter.

Somewhere like the Bugaboos would be top of the list or Cali/Zion.

Exactly, life affirming trips help ease the passing of a stagnated marriage. Once the relationship is over then the masturbatory process of of ‘2 weeks in Spain’ may be all that is needed. The climbing equivalent of dipping ones wick.

[Wood FT]

That post is up there with Nige's on Ioan Doyle.

+1

Gunning for a divorce now

[Yossarian]

Hopefully someone can bring the knowledge about Kazakhstan, Ak-Su (Duncan mentioned this and just googled it) and some of those sorts of places.

Personally I'm quite into the idea of India - when I cycled south of Ladakh I saw a load of stuff high up that looked pretty good, and it looks like the Baspa valley (where the Shoshala film was made, which isn't that far from there) has a load of rock. There's a North Face film about it, but they seem to get a lot of crappy weather.

I'm not suggesting that sort of thing as a quick tick trip, but with a bit more time it does look like the sort of place where you could do a mixture of length stuff, and it's pretty quick to get to - flight to Delhi and then a day's drive.



I was also pretty blown away by this Jacob Cook trip to Baffin. Not so much the river antics, more the slightly tamer stuff their two mates were trying. I'd always assumed Baffin was completely full on, but this paints quite a different picture...

[Ged]

FWIW, I think Monte Qualido belongs in the FLMHMF thread. It's great and everything, but the routes we did were in a day from the valley. There's obviously harder aid stuff that'd be multi day, but if I was after a big multi day adventure, I'd go elsewhere.

[Fultonius]

I think you mean Kyrgyzstan if you're talking Ak-Su.

We're we're planning a trip there this August, but for varied reasons in the team we've ditched that and now two of us a heading to the bugaboos instead.

Perestroika Crack is the obvious classic to go for. 800 of splitter up to 7b.

[Yossarian]

FWIW, I think Monte Qualido belongs in the FLMHMF thread. It's great and everything, but the routes we did were in a day from the valley. There's obviously harder aid stuff that'd be multi day, but if I was after a big multi day adventure, I'd go elsewhere.

No, I totally agree. It was more that Mediterraneo piqued my interest as a bridge across from that thread to this, at a venue that's right at the top of my list of places to return to.

[Yossarian]

I think you mean Kyrgyzstan if you're talking Ak-Su.

We're we're planning a trip there this August, but for varied reasons in the team we've ditched that and now two of us a heading to the bugaboos instead.

Perestroika Crack is the obvious classic to go for. 800 of splitter up to 7b.

Chenquieh.

[petejh]

I should probably hash out the rest of that bingo card. I think that, if you've done plenty of adventurous stuff at a sensible age (ie 20s and 30s) then the prospect of extended trips to Spain in a luxury campervan is going to be near the top of the list.

I think that, if you live in London, the top choice would probably be hooking up with a succession of young bouldering and shibari enthusiasts via Feeld and spending your weekends sitting around by the Shoreditch boulder popping strong psychedelics.

Whilst both of those approaches have some appealing aspects, my personal preference would be to aim for some meatier objectives.

In the theme of ‘shoot for the moon, if you fail you’ll end up among the stars’ - you could always aim for hooking up with young bouldering and shibari enthusiasts who, between hanging out popping psychedelics, would love to go on adventurous big-walling trips.
If you fail you might still find yourself on All Along the Watchtower with ‘middle-aged Malcolm’.

BTW the Bugs is great and I’d love to go back to climb on Howser Tower however the more popular spires felt a bit to me like alpine cragging. Due perhaps to the popularity of the campsite on the glacier smoothed slabs across from Snowpatch Spire and the non-serious approach to many routes. It wouldn’t be top of my list of places for ‘remote-feeling walls’.

[dunnyg]

There's some stuff in Siberia that looks pretty wild, if you can deal with the bugs, which look pretty gnarly.

[galpinos]

Hauling ledges etc is fine if y........

Lotus Flower Tower should be very high on the list of any aging trad-dad who's wallet and idle ambitions are swelling as fast as his skills are fading. Fly via......

Shit the bed JB, that's the best post I've read on here in a long time! The Lotus Flower Tower had been a dream list climb for me since my youth but you have rekindled the flame! Not yet sure how I could square it away with family/job/trying not to fly though......

[galpinos]

That post is up there with Nige's on Ioan Doyle.

Link please?

[cheque]

Here.

[jwi]

Tasermuit fjord has pretty stable weather in July. Similar to Kvaløya in Troms but colder. The logistics are not too tricky from what I gather. Most people I know who have gone there have been able to climb at least one or a few routes, utilising that due to the the arctic summer nights climbing around the clock is possible and an ability to climb in light drizzle.

[Ged]

We had amazing weather in tasermuit fjord, despite the human eating mosquitoes. Logistics were fairly straightforward but its really frickin expensive. This was back in 2008,but we had MEF and BMC grants, and it still bankrupted me.

[jwi]

My mate shipped the gear by boat a few months in advance to keep down the cost. Maybe that help as he's been at least four times if not five.

[Ged]

Yeah we did the same but flights and boat transfers were a lot.

[Alex-the-Alex]

Until I read the second sentence I thought the first reference to Bugs was insects

.. and the young bouldering Shibari enthusiast are really into urban bloc and cute japanese dog breeds 

[MischaHY]

YYFY to this thread 

Must say my favourite style is ala PaulB i.e. big days smashing out the route as fast and light as possible. However in recent years I've been fascinated by the idea of a hybrid style which doesn't adopt the slow grind of traditional bigwall but does involve a night or two and lots of hard pitches. Equipment seems to be catching up this style as well with ledges like the G7 offering a much more attractive packsize/weight. Places like VdM or Gran Paradiso look ideal for it. Anyone done a bit of this and can offer some beta on things to do/take or even better route recommendations for getting into the swing of it?

[Yossarian]

YYFY to this thread 

Must say my favourite style is ala PaulB i.e. big days smashing out the route as fast and light as possible. However in recent years I've been fascinated by the idea of a hybrid style which doesn't adopt the slow grind of traditional bigwall but does involve a night or two and lots of hard pitches. Equipment seems to be catching up this style as well with ledges like the G7 offering a much more attractive packsize/weight. Places like VdM or Gran Paradiso look ideal for it. Anyone done a bit of this and can offer some beta on things to do/take or even better route recommendations for getting into the swing of it?

I think that, if there's a spectrum from what you describe to holidays tips from Silvia Vidal, I'm thinking firmly at the former end.

I guess it's basically taking an alpine approach vs taking cragging to its ultimate level. I listened to the Factor Two podcasts about Leo and Patch, etc in Yosemite the other day and there was a lot of talk about cragging on El Cap, Astroman becoming like an afternoon jaunt, etc. But I imagine for older mortals to get anywhere near that kind of causualness you'd have to be there full time. I think the purpose of this tread is related to acknowledging that, and then working on the basis that there are probably quite a lot of hardcore possibilities out there, but they would require some more time, commitment, etc...

I think the LFT is probably the archetypal example of the kind of thing I have in mind... I'd previously summed it up as a search for the Trango Tower for E4 leaders who can spare a reasonable amount of time or money (or possibly both).

[duncan]

Exclusion criteria for the original FLMH&MF were routes the BMC rock insurance wouldn't cover you for. They go here.

If you can make it back to the pizzeria at the end of the day it probably goes in that thread. If your pizza has been cooked by the expedition chef in a mud oven fuelled by dried yak dung it definitely goes here.

[i_a_coops]

The pizza scale of wall remoteness goes from 0 to 17, where 1 means you can ab off and get pizza if you decide to bail (eg Verdon), and 17 means there's no pizza on the entire continent (eg Antarctica).

The reason it got extended to 0 is that for some of the walls in Rio de Janeiro (the Corcovado wall is pretty meaty, 800m, minimum 7b obligatory and easiest free route is 8a+ I think), you can ab off and get pizza, alternatively you can top out, get a gourmet pizza at the summit while being mobbed by tourists taking selfies with you, then get a cable car back down and get all-you-can-eat pizza right outside the cable car station at the bottom.

[Duncan campbell]

The pizza scale of wall remoteness goes from 0 to 17, where 1 means you can ab off and get pizza if you decide to bail (eg Verdon), and 17 means there's no pizza on the entire continent (eg Antarctica).

The reason it got extended to 0 is that for some of the walls in Rio de Janeiro (the Corcovado wall is pretty meaty, 800m, minimum 7b obligatory and easiest free route is 8a+ I think), you can ab off and get pizza, alternatively you can top out, get a gourmet pizza at the summit while being mobbed by tourists taking selfies with you, then get a cable car back down and get all-you-can-eat pizza right outside the cable car station at the bottom.

Antarctica will defo have pizza! Probs with bits of penguin on top  but I do really like this pizza scale thing. tbh rio de janeiro sounds pretty dreamy (if the routes were a touch easier)

[i_a_coops]

The only route I did on the Corcovado was this one:

https://www.8a.nu/news/via-oitavo-passageiro-rj

Which goes at 7b/+, A0 and about E4 I think - the featured slabs and walls are bolted, the cracks aren't, and the totally blank section is a bolt ladder (quite an unusual one - the bolts are utterly enormous P bolts that look like they're for mooring ships rather than climbing, and you have to mantel each one, match hands and feet on it, stand up, and stretch/dyno clip the next one, then repeat for an entire pitch). The hardest trad pitch might not be E4 if there are no hornets nests to avoid, but probably harder than E4 if you go direct through the hornets.

There are easier 400-500m things on the Sugarloaf, including an amazing 7a/E5ish route I've forgotten the name of and a bunch of things in the French 6s. Think there's also a gnarly Pou brothers ~F8b there too.

[i_a_coops]

The problem with Rio is the humidity, I went in the middle of their winter and it was still really bad. The big gnarly sport crag there is insane, it's like Berlin sector at Ceuse but taller and made out of beautifuly golden granite with perfectly sculpted crimps. Grades start at 7c. The bouldering also looks amazing but I think night sessions are pretty crucial. You can also get a bus to the Sella dos Orgaos national park, which just about fits the criteria for this thread (think it's the hardest approach I've ever done by a mile, it took us 24h to cover 2k of extremely steep jungle, had to drink water from carnivourous plants, then ab down a freezing cold waterfall). Think it's pretty easy to get a permit to climb if you just ask at the office on the way in and let them know what route you're going for.

Trip report here

https://biviartistry.wordpress.com/2016/08/01/