[GazM]

OK, so I'm after a bit of advice regarding burl. I need some.

For a few years I've been banging my head against a problem in Torridon called Potential Seven. Its a short steep squeezy prow, ending with a big lunge to a glorious jug. I'd hoped it would be a fairly quick tick but I've never even done that last big move in isolation. I've seen and tried various different methods and I've got very close with a very basic lunge/jump. If I had about 5cm longer reach I reckon I'd have done it. So having ruled out the various other methods with feet/heels/toes in various places I think it's just going to be a matter of being able to lunge a tiny bit further off shitty feet under the roof.

So I'm after advice on how to improve that kind of steep, shouldery, squeezy, slappy burl. I'm pretty sure a steep board (45degrees or more) would be useful, but I don't have regular access to one of them. I do have a 35degree board, fingerboard and small 4 rung campus board. I was thinking that campusing problems on my board would be a start, but keen to hear any other ideas. General strength/conditioning stuff perhaps?

[highrepute]

I used to have a similar lack of burl.

Steep board climbing is the answer. I know 40 degrees is sufficient. it's going to get harder down at 30 degrees but possible. Can you get some awful slopey footholds on there? and set BIG moves. When you get to a wall get on the steep and roof problems.

[GazM]

Ah yeah, I've got a few of those wee wooden dome feet on my board but have been pretty bad at using them, mainly cos they were desperate! I'll try again...

[teestub]

In terms of general conditioning stuff, I think pull ups focussing on speed on the pull then a slow negative are good for generating the sort of power you want for slappy moves. No more than 5 in a set, adding weight if that gets too easy.

[scragrock]

Likewise Gaz i have always found Pot 7 to be desperate.

I have a handy hanging arete on my wall if you want to pop up a replica and work the moves

[36chambers]

If your board has a good selection of pinches, you could try climbing them without using your thumbs and with as little foot technique as possible. That's my favourite way of having a burly board szech.

[Fultonius]

...and with as little foot technique as possible.....

I've been using this approach for years, but it doesn't seem to lead to any major gainz 

[Paul B]

Steep board climbing is the answer. I know 40 degrees is sufficient. it's going to get harder down at 30 degrees but possible. Can you get some awful slopey footholds on there? and set BIG moves.

When you end up doing that, let's say on a BM board you might as well be campussing IMO.

Touches would be good:
1-4L-1-4R-1-4L-1-4R-1 etc.
and
1-4R-3R-4R-3R-4R-3R-4R then repeat for the L.

[GazM]

Thanks all. I'll get stuck into a bit of all that and report back on progress.
Alternatively, maybe I could gain those 5cm on a rack. Anyone got one?

[Paul B]

Thanks all. I'll get stuck into a bit of all that and report back on progress.
Alternatively, maybe I could gain those 5cm on a rack. Anyone got one?

Didn't Gresh say he had to do loads of stretching to get the span for Equilibrium?

https://www.neilgresham.com/climbing/selected-repeats

[cowboyhat]

Bench press, rows... etc?

And eat more protein.

[User deactivated.]

Bench press, rows... etc?

And eat more protein.

While steep board climbing would likely be better, I reckon these would be the best 2 non climbing exercises for burl. If you can bench and row 1.5 times your bodyweight then you can automatically do all the supposedly more climbing specific exercises like T's on TRX, explosive pullups or muscle ups, etc. Probably way before reaching 1.5x actually. You wouldn't be found wanting more body strength at this point.

[MischaHY]

Rebuild the board to make it adjustable angle? Could be a good solution.

On another note I've been meaning to add a bunch of bigger sloping holds to my board because I'm also poor on this sort of terrain. Is wood or resin better for this? 

[Dexter]

Another advocate for steep board climbing. Also follow the Malc guide for getting strong, it really helped me with burl

[remus]

On another note I've been meaning to add a bunch of bigger sloping holds to my board because I'm also poor on this sort of terrain. Is wood or resin better for this?

Purely anecdotal but I prefer resin because the holds feel closer to slopers you get outside. I find wood a bit too slippy so by the time you end up making a usable sloper the shape is pretty different to what I tend to find outdoors (i.e. wrist position and how you hold it is all different). No idea whether this has made me any better at actually climbing on slopers outdoors.

[SA Chris]

I've got wood (home made half domes) and resin (mostly Holdz) and i much prefer the resin, as per remus above. Lack of friction means you don't hold them like you would hold slopers outdoors.

[Johnny Brown]

Lots of pointless advocates for steep boards!

Have you got access to any burly bouldering?

[Fiend]

While steep board climbing would likely be better, I reckon these would be the best 2 non climbing exercises for burl. If you can bench and row 1.5 times your bodyweight then you can automatically do all the supposedly more climbing specific exercises like T's on TRX, explosive pullups or muscle ups, etc. Probably way before reaching 1.5x actually. You wouldn't be found wanting more body strength at this point.

I don't think that's always true, based on my own experience. Bench feels like one of my stronger lifts, and although I can only do 1xBW, I can do that pretty consistently when everything else is ailing, and seeing previous comments on here, that's more than some much stronger boulderers can do. Equally, rows always feel comfortable when elbows allow, and the climbing coach I saw underestimated my max dumbbell rows by about 30% based on the rest of my abilities. BUT the concept of ever having "burl" (including the tests you mentioned) is so far beyond me it seems almost mythological.

I suspect the issue is, mundanely and inevitably, power-to-weight ratio, as it always is. Those lifts are all very well because they're irrespective of body weight, but the climbing or muscle-up burl isn't. OTOH they're both fun exercises, and work antagonists and directly-related-to-climbing muscles respectively so well worth doing if not a miracle cure for everyone.

Lots of pointless advocates for steep boards!

Have you got access to any burly bouldering?

Good ol' JB. Gaz lives in the Highlands so he's got to rely on that 2 week gap between Rainy Season and Midge Death Season, and miraculously not having dad duties in that time.

Ayck, who are we kidding, WHAT gap between Rainy Season and Midge Death Season??

[mr chaz]

(Quote fail)

[i_a_coops]

Climbing problems on a less steep board wrong handed (ie like Oppotrocity!) will make them feel steeper and work your shoulders and pulling power more. Trying to set things that actually force mad crossovers is also a good challenge.

[mr chaz]

Lots of pointless advocates for steep boards!

Have you got access to any burly bouldering?

What, like the sort you find on a steep board? 

[Johnny Brown]

No, he said he hasn't got one. I mean actual bouldering, or at least something 3-D you can actually wrap your arms around.

You can clearly gain a certain sort of strength on steep boards but my experience has always been the expected gainz on real rock aren't so obvious. I guess as far as technique goes, power corrupts.

[GazM]

Fiend's got it I'm afraid JB.  As much as I'd love to be able to improve through real climbing I get out so rarely that I'm looking at options I can do from home while the bairns are snoring.

Thanks again everyone for the input.  I'll be on the board tonight with some freshly rearranged wooden domes for my feet.  It's fair to say most of my problems on the board tend to focus on snatchy moves with smaller holds on small but OK feet, so I'll start setting problems with big moves on bigger holds but shitter feet.

[sherlock]

Ayck, who are we kidding, WHAT gap between Rainy Season and Midge Death Season??
[/quote]
Aye, that gap has been filled by NC500 Twat season.
And Fiend, you old curmudgeon, it's been dry here since...ooooh... Saturday.

[Hoseyb]

For myself ( when fully functional) the increase in burl requires a substantial amount of work in the lower core to improve the hand-foot connection.
This is relatively simple to drill on a 35° ( or less) board by the following:
1) activate the core ; dishes, happy/angry cat, mini superman's on your knees etc.
2) select two absolutely shite footholds at the bottom of the wall. These should be so shite that you can only comfortably weight them by pasting and hanging of straight arms out from the board.
3) weight the footholds in this position, engaged the core like grim death and clawing like an alley cat,pull in with the arms so your body plank like comes into the board.
This should result in your feet pinging off.
Repeat until the point your feet ping is closer to the wall.
Closer you get, the better the hand foot connection, the more you can throw your whole body into the move

[cowboyhat]

 my experience has always been the expected gainz on real rock aren't so obvious. I guess as far as technique goes, power corrupts.

Talk me through your experience training on a board....

[Paul B]

You can clearly gain a certain sort of strength on steep boards but my experience has always been the expected gainz on real rock aren't so obvious. I guess as far as technique goes, power corrupts.

Are you perhaps only thinking of people who got the balance/focus wrong?

[Johnny Brown]

Talk me through your experience training on a board....

I've never bothered, as you know. Just as you've never bothered burning me off on short sharp squeezy prows.

I'm sure it's great for climbing that resembles a steep board. I just rarely encounter that in the Uk, but seems it's everyone's go to training aid for everyone's training needs. Hammer, nail, etc...

[User deactivated.]

While steep board climbing would likely be better, I reckon these would be the best 2 non climbing exercises for burl. If you can bench and row 1.5 times your bodyweight then you can automatically do all the supposedly more climbing specific exercises like T's on TRX, explosive pullups or muscle ups, etc. Probably way before reaching 1.5x actually. You wouldn't be found wanting more body strength at this point.

I don't think that's always true, based on my own experience. Bench feels like one of my stronger lifts, and although I can only do 1xBW, I can do that pretty consistently when everything else is ailing, and seeing previous comments on here, that's more than some much stronger boulderers can do. Equally, rows always feel comfortable when elbows allow, and the climbing coach I saw underestimated my max dumbbell rows by about 30% based on the rest of my abilities. BUT the concept of ever having "burl" (including the tests you mentioned) is so far beyond me it seems almost mythological.

I suspect the issue is, mundanely and inevitably, power-to-weight ratio, as it always is. Those lifts are all very well because they're irrespective of body weight, but the climbing or muscle-up burl isn't. OTOH they're both fun exercises, and work antagonists and directly-related-to-climbing muscles respectively so well worth doing if not a miracle cure for everyone.

I said the magic happens at 1.5x   

Anecdotally, the first time I ever tried a muscle up I did 0 reps as I got the timing wrong. A few minutes later on my 2nd try I did 6 reps and all I'd really done before was squats, bench, overhead press, rows, and deadlifts. I weighed about 90kg at the time. I don't think i've ever felt out-burled on a climb and it's always my puny fingers or suspect technique that are the weak links. N=1 but I believe being generally strong and without injury is the reason.

[Fiend]

You said "probably way before".... And that one could "automatically do muscle ups". I'm doing theorising bollox here, but say your "probably way before" means "1.25 x BW = muscle ups", then "1 x BW = 0.8 of a muscle up". No I have no idea what 0.8 of a muscle up might feel like but I do have an idea I have never been anywhere near that in the last decade. Or even half that.

Perving on your muscly tattooed videos and reading your posts, I suspect a LOT of that 90kg (at a respectable height) was muscle relevant to climbing burl (if not relevant to rat crimping, of course). And yes, as you say "being generally strong and without injury is the reason" is also the key (aka pipe dream).


Going back to the Gaz vs JB board thing.... It sounds like Gaz has got the problem pretty dialled (although watching a video it does look like JB's sort of thing as far as burl goes!!) so the technical pitfalls of board training are probably less relevant. It does look like some aspects in terms of movement and hold orientation could be replicated on a board, even if it's only a 30....

[jwi]

I would not waste precious time and resources on bench press or deadlifts or other things that has close to zero transfer to climbing.

Why not climb burly boulder problems? They are not hard to find in franchise bouldering walls? Or in many bouldering areas?

I do not apologies for this obvious advise as following this discussion it does not seem to be that obvious.

[GazM]

Thanks for the advice JWI but up here near Inverness the nearest franchise bouldering wall that might replicate this sort of thing is about 3hrs drive away! And as mentioned earlier, given life constraints I'm ideally looking for ways to improve at home rather than out at the crag, although I'll certainly be looking for similar styles of problem when I do get out.

[jwi]

fair enough, doing board problems with good hand holds and really bad feet is pretty burly.

[mr chaz]

I presume you've tried Taps Aff For POWER?

[northern yob]

Talk me through your experience training on a board....

I've never bothered, as you know. Just as you've never bothered burning me off on short sharp squeezy prows.

I'm sure it's great for climbing that resembles a steep board. I just rarely encounter that in the Uk, but seems it's everyone's go to training aid for everyone's training needs. Hammer, nail, etc...

This is great….. is that because you’ve never climbed on a short sharp  squeezy prow with crimps rather than slopers on, or maybe a short squeezy limestone prow?? Or even a granite prow together….I get exactly where you are coming from Adam but I think the evidence defo points to a combination of technique and power as being literally the way forward for all climbing, and there’s no denying that boards can play a huge part in that… I despise a board nearly as much as you but it defo helps as does getting out and getting some mileage in!

[Paul B]

I think the evidence defo points to a combination of technique and power as being literally the way forward for all climbing, and there’s no denying that boards can play a huge part in that… I despise a board nearly as much as you but it defo helps as does getting out and getting some mileage in!

Exactly this. Of the better climbers of my era I can't think of one which didn't rely on board climbing. Likewise, when considering the more recent wads. JB's approach is as blinkered as those of my generation who focussed on board climbing at the expense of all else ( ) and is equally as poor!

I'm not sure NY that you hate boards as much as JB, you do have one?

[SA Chris]

I presume you've tried Taps Aff For POWER?

In Scotland Taps Aff is automatic as soon as temperature hits positive numbers.

[Bradders]

Talk me through your experience training on a board....

I'm sure it's great for climbing that resembles a steep board. I just rarely encounter that in the Uk, but seems it's everyone's go to training aid for everyone's training needs. Hammer, nail, etc...

If you climb anywhere other than the Eastern grit edges there is absolutely loads of board style climbing in the UK! Most things in Wales, basically everything in the Lakes, everything on the North Devon / Cornwall coastline, lots around Portland, plenty in Northumberland and most of the established things in Scotland away from Torridon in fact.

[Fiend]

Thankfully there's plenty enough of the better stuff that ISN'T, though 

[petejh]

I'm sure it's great for climbing that resembles a steep board. I just rarely encounter that in the Uk, because I rarely look for it ...

Saw this and thought I'd edit it for you.
But then my mind suddenly fast-forwarded to 2045, a Thursday evening, and JB - or Xing Pung as he is then known and understands himself to be (his old anglo-saxon identity having been force-forgotten in the 'great mind terror' that all citizens underwent during the mid-2030s 'citizen enlightenment' following the 10 years of darkness after the 2026 nuclear conflict) - is still a relatively weak but good techniqueophile climber who enjoys a solitary lap on the grit one evening per month when the regional war council allow him leave from his Beta management role of training Omega-class workers for life out in the endless great turbine projects of the far north China sea. He's online expressing on a UKB metaverse climbing discussion group how 'everyone trains power these days'.
While GazM (or Xing Ping as he then knows himself to be) still enjoys steep board-style climbing on the 2hrs recreation per week he's allowed away from his state-energy-company job doing 12hr maintenance shifts refilling battery cells with 'the fluid' (they pump from the military hospitals) out in the vast battery fields that now surround all cities.
And I realised there's no point to this endless discussion as some things will just never change.