UKBouldering.com

Russia/Ukraine (Read 64722 times)

Wellsy

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1405
  • Karma: +102/-8
#50 Re: Russia/Ukraine
February 24, 2022, 12:10:02 pm
I don't agree with the posts calling Ukraine a mistake. I don't think the people of Ukraine would agree with this sentiment either.

https://www.netflix.com/search?q=winter%20on%20fire&jbv=80031666

How else would they have been able to live in a democratic nation ?

I certainly don't consider them a mistake at all. I'm saying that is the view of Putin etc

Bonjoy

Offline
  • *****
  • Global Moderator
  • forum hero
  • Leafy gent
  • Posts: 9932
  • Karma: +561/-8
#51 Re: Russia/Ukraine
February 24, 2022, 12:20:55 pm


Anyway, Putin has promised some dire consequences on everyone else if they dare to interfere, so I should imagine there are some stressed teams trying to work out where he’s hidden the nukes in various Western capitals…
Doesn't seem to have phased David Davis on twitter, who has called for air support for Ukraine. I think it's notable that I saw this reported on The Guardian site first and the article now appears to have been removed.

Oldmanmatt

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • At this rate, I probably won’t last the week.
  • Posts: 7097
  • Karma: +368/-17
  • Largely broken. Obsolete spares and scrap only.
    • The Boulder Bunker climbing centre
#52 Re: Russia/Ukraine
February 24, 2022, 12:46:59 pm


Anyway, Putin has promised some dire consequences on everyone else if they dare to interfere, so I should imagine there are some stressed teams trying to work out where he’s hidden the nukes in various Western capitals…
Doesn't seem to have phased David Davis on twitter, who has called for air support for Ukraine. I think it's notable that I saw this reported on The Guardian site first and the article now appears to have been removed.
It’s still up on many sites and he’s not alone:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/davis-ellwood-nato-russia-ukraine-b2022259.html

Unlikely.

seankenny

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1007
  • Karma: +114/-11
#53 Re: Russia/Ukraine
February 24, 2022, 12:59:04 pm
I think there's more to it than naked neo-Imperialism on Putin's part tbh. If you frame it from the perspective of a nation which suffered from a catastrophic but ultimately unsuccessful invasion, which took the lives of tens of millions of citizens, perhaps having a buffer zone might seem more reasonable.


Defending the homeland has often been an excuse for imperial land-grabs.




Honestly, you might as well brand France a “mistake” (because it has one of the least cohesive histories in Europe, though it it primarily representative of a fairly typically evolution of a European country).


Germany: hold my beer…

Moo

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Is an idiot
  • Posts: 1444
  • Karma: +84/-6
#54 Re: Russia/Ukraine
February 24, 2022, 01:16:09 pm
Apologies wellsy I read you're post a bit quick there..

Oldmanmatt

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • At this rate, I probably won’t last the week.
  • Posts: 7097
  • Karma: +368/-17
  • Largely broken. Obsolete spares and scrap only.
    • The Boulder Bunker climbing centre
#55 Re: Russia/Ukraine
February 24, 2022, 01:32:12 pm


Anyway, Putin has promised some dire consequences on everyone else if they dare to interfere, so I should imagine there are some stressed teams trying to work out where he’s hidden the nukes in various Western capitals…
Doesn't seem to have phased David Davis on twitter, who has called for air support for Ukraine. I think it's notable that I saw this reported on The Guardian site first and the article now appears to have been removed.
It’s still up on many sites and he’s not alone:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/davis-ellwood-nato-russia-ukraine-b2022259.html

Unlikely.

Ah.

Just saw Boris’ statement included the line “ Our mission is clear diplomatically, politically, economically and eventually militarily. ”
So possibly Davis isn’t as far off base as I’d thought. I figured Pete was closer to the most likely, in speculation of unconventional military intervention. However, there have been several mentions of air support, from a variety of nations, so, maybe…

joel182

Offline
  • ***
  • obsessive maniac
  • Posts: 345
  • Karma: +49/-1
#56 Re: Russia/Ukraine
February 24, 2022, 01:41:22 pm
Within the little world that is climbing, the IFSC must cancel the upcoming competition in Moscow. It is unconscionable to continue with cultural events that legitimise Putin's regime.

I am not the first to suggest this, Eddie Fowke said it much better in a post earlier today.

Wellsy

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1405
  • Karma: +102/-8
#57 Re: Russia/Ukraine
February 24, 2022, 02:24:57 pm
Apologies wellsy I read you're post a bit quick there..

No worries :)

Oldmanmatt

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • At this rate, I probably won’t last the week.
  • Posts: 7097
  • Karma: +368/-17
  • Largely broken. Obsolete spares and scrap only.
    • The Boulder Bunker climbing centre
#58 Re: Russia/Ukraine
February 24, 2022, 02:30:39 pm
I feel T&P are being fed quite a lot of info, right now and might be worth a follow. It’s also possible that Russia is not having it all it’s own way. UCAVs are still relatively new and this might be their first outing during a full scale invasion scenario, having already been prominent in Syria and Yemen. Definitely an “equaliser” for small militaries/countries.

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CaXN5PDuiRJ/?utm_medium=copy_link

Moo

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Is an idiot
  • Posts: 1444
  • Karma: +84/-6
#59 Re: Russia/Ukraine
February 24, 2022, 02:39:13 pm
There’s a guy on YouTube called adam something who’s posting regular updates. Not sure how true it all is though.


andy popp

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 5525
  • Karma: +347/-5
#60 Re: Re: Politics 2020
February 24, 2022, 06:31:30 pm
And a lot of the US was brought up thinking of "those darned Soviets / Russkis"  as being the big bad enemy, so won't take much to reignite that.

Not so much any more. Trump, lavishly praising Putin in speeches in the last few days, helped by Tucker Carlson and others in the "conservative" media-sphere, has so utterly corrupted Republican politics than loyalty to Russia and Putin is now a necessary mark of loyalty to Trump. President Zelensky is simply the weasel who wouldn't do Trump's bidding. As to elected Republican politicians, literally their own framing of this is as a means for partisan attacks on Biden. They have zero sense of greater American interests.

teestub

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 2574
  • Karma: +166/-4
  • Cyber Wanker
#61 Re: Russia/Ukraine
February 24, 2022, 08:02:49 pm
What’s the deal with Chernobyl? I had assumed there must be an active power station there next to the ‘80’s clusterfuck, but it doesn’t appear so?

webbo

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 5028
  • Karma: +141/-13
#62 Re: Russia/Ukraine
February 24, 2022, 08:06:25 pm
What’s the deal with Chernobyl? I had assumed there must be an active power station there next to the ‘80’s clusterfuck, but it doesn’t appear so?
Lots of uranium for more bombs. :-\

James Malloch

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1686
  • Karma: +62/-1
#63 Re: Russia/Ukraine
February 24, 2022, 08:14:00 pm
Also, what happens if Russia “takes” Ukraine and puts in a pro-Russian government?

Obviously the west wouldn’t recognise it. But then what? More sanctions?

Snoops

Offline
  • ***
  • obsessive maniac
  • Posts: 496
  • Karma: +20/-0
#64 Re: Russia/Ukraine
February 24, 2022, 08:55:14 pm
It’s 1938/39 all over again, and really depressing how the EU won’t even stop them having SWIFT access, the one sanction that would bite….reason it would hurt their own economy too….
I’d be furious if I was in Ukraine about to lose my democracy

Snoops

Offline
  • ***
  • obsessive maniac
  • Posts: 496
  • Karma: +20/-0
#65 Re: Russia/Ukraine
February 24, 2022, 08:58:26 pm
Also, what happens if Russia “takes” Ukraine and puts in a pro-Russian government?

Obviously the west wouldn’t recognise it. But then what? More sanctions?

Pretty sure it’s not ‘if’

jwi

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 4219
  • Karma: +331/-1
    • On Steep Ground
#66 Re: Russia/Ukraine
February 24, 2022, 09:49:16 pm
The only good news is that the war is still going on and that the Blitz krieg failed. For people who want to read up on the subject in English, I recommend to search for the writings of an old university friend of my oh, Michel Kofman (for example yesterday in The Economist).

Oldmanmatt

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • At this rate, I probably won’t last the week.
  • Posts: 7097
  • Karma: +368/-17
  • Largely broken. Obsolete spares and scrap only.
    • The Boulder Bunker climbing centre
#67 Re: Russia/Ukraine
February 24, 2022, 09:50:27 pm
What’s the deal with Chernobyl? I had assumed there must be an active power station there next to the ‘80’s clusterfuck, but it doesn’t appear so?
Lots of uranium for more bombs. :-\
The exclusion zone is a long, protected corridor, deep into Ukraine; where they cannot be fired upon, since that would stir up radioactive soil etc.

teestub

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 2574
  • Karma: +166/-4
  • Cyber Wanker
#68 Re: Russia/Ukraine
February 25, 2022, 07:01:27 am
 Cheers Matt, this from the Graun this morning:

Quote
Chernobyl and the north
A Ukrainian presidential adviser said Ukraine had lost control of the Chernobyl nuclear site in the north, where fighting raged after Russian troops crossed the border from Belarus. The adviser said authorities did not know the current condition of the facilities at the site of the world’s worst nuclear disaster.

Ukraine’s interior ministry warned that if artillery fire was to hit waste stored after the 1986 disaster, it could lead to “radioactive nuclear dust” being spread “over the territory of Ukraine, Belarus and the countries of the EU”.

The Chernobyl exclusion zone lies directly in the path of what western experts believe is the principal invasion route from Belarus to the west of Kyiv, where Ukraine’s presidential palace and key buildings are located.

SA Chris

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 29221
  • Karma: +630/-11
    • http://groups.msn.com/ChrisClix
#69 Re: Re: Politics 2020
February 25, 2022, 08:39:35 am
And a lot of the US was brought up thinking of "those darned Soviets / Russkis"  as being the big bad enemy, so won't take much to reignite that.

Not so much any more. Trump, lavishly praising Putin in speeches in the last few days, helped by Tucker Carlson and others in the "conservative" media-sphere, has so utterly corrupted Republican politics than loyalty to Russia and Putin is now a necessary mark of loyalty to Trump. President Zelensky is simply the weasel who wouldn't do Trump's bidding. As to elected Republican politicians, literally their own framing of this is as a means for partisan attacks on Biden. They have zero sense of greater American interests.

OK, thanks, guess my views on the state of affairs is a bit outdated!

James Malloch

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1686
  • Karma: +62/-1
#70 Re: Russia/Ukraine
February 25, 2022, 09:48:45 am
It’s 1938/39 all over again, and really depressing how the EU won’t even stop them having SWIFT access, the one sanction that would bite….reason it would hurt their own economy too….
I’d be furious if I was in Ukraine about to lose my democracy

My knowledge on this kind of thing is pretty embarrassing. Is Ukraine the equivalent of Czechoslovakia back in 38/39? I.e. Whilst condemning the current invasion, we’re not going to war over it. Almost like the appeasement policy in 38/39?

And it will take the invasion of another, NATO, country (like Hitler invading Poland) before the West is drawn into war?

Wellsy

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1405
  • Karma: +102/-8
#71 Re: Russia/Ukraine
February 25, 2022, 09:56:41 am
NATO going to war in Ukraine isn't really an option. It would mean war between NATO and Russia. That's in nobody's interest, not even the Ukrainians, who I presume would not like to see nukes flying overhead

What should have happened is that in 2014 we got them under the NATO umbrella. That would have agitated Moscow but what can they do about it? Not much.

spidermonkey09

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 2814
  • Karma: +159/-4
#72 Re: Russia/Ukraine
February 25, 2022, 10:06:00 am
NATO going to war in Ukraine isn't really an option. It would mean war between NATO and Russia. That's in nobody's interest, not even the Ukrainians, who I presume would not like to see nukes flying overhead

What should have happened is that in 2014 we got them under the NATO umbrella. That would have agitated Moscow but what can they do about it? Not much.

Easier said than done! Countries aren't allowed to join NATO if they're considered unstable in any way or involved in domestic conflicts, and I think there are sound reasons for this. It requires unanimous approval from all the existing states as well. Ukraine is in the second tier of 'membership' though, along with Sweden and I think Finland.

I agree that we should have SWIFT sanctions though. Sounds like the US & UK were keen, but Germany, Italy, Hungary not. Yet.


My knowledge on this kind of thing is pretty embarrassing. Is Ukraine the equivalent of Czechoslovakia back in 38/39? I.e. Whilst condemning the current invasion, we’re not going to war over it. Almost like the appeasement policy in 38/39?

And it will take the invasion of another, NATO, country (like Hitler invading Poland) before the West is drawn into war?

I think the problem with the word 'appeasement' is it carries such huge emotional baggage that it isn't that helpful. The key difference between now and 1939 is the proliferation of nuclear weapons I think. With those around, 'appeasement'/diplomacy is always the response to any threat of war with a nuclear power or NATO member.

Thats correct. If Putin was to invade a NATO nation, they could invoke article 5 which would compel every other NATO member to come to their aid. https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_110496.htm




Bonjoy

Offline
  • *****
  • Global Moderator
  • forum hero
  • Leafy gent
  • Posts: 9932
  • Karma: +561/-8
#73 Re: Russia/Ukraine
February 25, 2022, 10:11:57 am
The massive difference to 38/39 is that nuclear weapons exist. Any hot war with Russia has a very real chance of ending human civilisation, if not all human life on the planet. Putin has already made a barely veiled promise to use nukes. Thus far he’s made good on his threats, even when it’s clearly self-defeating madness to do so. Should we gamble all human life on an assumption he’s bluffing, or the faith that events won’t snowball in a way that history shows they usually do? Ultimately this is the Achilles heel of nuclear deterrence. If one side is mad enough to use them then ultimately the other side has to either capitulate or be complicit in the end of the world. 

James Malloch

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1686
  • Karma: +62/-1
#74 Re: Russia/Ukraine
February 25, 2022, 10:32:03 am
Thanks for the responses - makes sense. What a completely shit situation.

 

SimplePortal 2.3.7 © 2008-2024, SimplePortal