[SA Chris]

Or the running equivalent of running in Z3 / “junk miles” too much.

I (mis)understood the term "junk miles" to mean just "going for a run", where there is no actual intent and just "going for a run"; no intensity training (hills, intervals pace, etc) but also not doing the necessary volume long easy mileage; a run that's too short for one, but too easy for the other.

[T_B]

No intensity or not easy enough to recover from so that you can get the most out of the next workout. Most people’s ‘easy’ runs are nothing of the sort. The caveat to all this is if you can only train (whether it be running or climbing) 2 or 3 times pw you don’t want to be making it easy for 2 of those sessions! In climbing junk miles might be the classic unstructured wall session where you do a bit of everything and finish knackered.

[Paul B]

No intensity or not easy enough to recover from so that you can get the most out of the next workout. Most people’s ‘easy’ runs are nothing of the sort.

...and we all know climbers who push the concept of 'active rest' days past the point of being nothing other than another day on.

Is active rest actually a thing?

In cycling it is. They ride on their rest days on the TdF (and I don't think that's purely to do with fulfilling sponsorship obligations).

[SA Chris]

No intensity or not easy enough to recover from so that you can get the most out of the next workout. Most people’s ‘easy’ runs are nothing of the sort.

OK, agreed then. my easy miles are usually hillwalking with the kids.

[webbo]

No intensity or not easy enough to recover from so that you can get the most out of the next workout. Most people’s ‘easy’ runs are nothing of the sort.

...and we all know climbers who push the concept of 'active rest' days past the point of being nothing other than another day on.

Is active rest actually a thing?

In cycling it is. They ride on their rest days on the TdF (and I don't think that's purely to do with fulfilling sponsorship obligations).

I think they do the rest day ride so as to avoid the post rest day slump. I.e you do 10 or so days on then have a day off. Then the next day your body doesn’t want to try hard again, it likes resting.

[steveri]

I'm your classic runner: "easy runs too hard, hard runs too easy." Recently been paying some attention to the Garmin bar charts, splitting efforts into easy, medium, hard. Mine was all in the middle and I'm trying to be better balanced now. Hard is hard though - I thought I was putting in some efforts but it's hard to impress the little machine. That said my 'predicted 5k' time is steadily dropping, with no increase in volume. Haven't raced enough to see actual 5k.

Climbing wise is likely the same, I've always done plenty of easier stuff, I like moving on rock. Trying properly hard is more the problem. For me AN Other sport isn't quite the same as proper rest day. I still need rest days alternating sports and hard efforts.

[jwi]

I think they do the rest day ride so as to avoid the post rest day slump. I.e you do 10 or so days on then have a day off. Then the next day your body doesn’t want to try hard again, it likes resting.

A friend of mine went in to a bouldering gym when walking home from uni. Three years later, years during which he had bouldered up to 8A+/B, he took his first rest day. He told me that taking rest days was a really bad idea, because the day after his rest day he could barely climb.

[Bradders]

In climbing junk miles might be the classic unstructured wall session where you do a bit of everything and finish knackered.

This is what I've always understood junk mileage to mean in climbing.

It's all about understanding the different intensity levels for each session and going after them.  For example a maximal board session needs to actually involve maximum moves; I.e. moves that might take you more than a session just to do in isolation, as opposed to the classic thing of trying a load of problems that you can likely do in a few goes; it might feel like you've worked hard but it's not actually hard enough to stimulate the gains you're after. Similarly if you were trying to do mileage, building fitness, with the same session; your rest times won't be short enough and the problems are too hard.

Regarding the original subject, I reckon session fitness is one of the more elusive factors to judge. There are so many variables!

[Bradders]

Generally speaking I reckon there is too much emphasis on intensity within the climbing training “world”. Yes some coaches and pros bang the volume/movement skills drum, but there still seems to be a perception that high intensity strength training can be some magic bullet. Without the volume of climbing to underpin it, I think eg deadhanging is massively overrated.

I reckon this is spot on too though. The best climbers get through a fairly enormous quantity of movement, with much of it at no more than c. 80% of max. I enjoyed listening to the Nugget podcast with Steve Bechtel (or Maisch?, can't remember) recently where he made this point; that the very best have this as an almost naturally imposed limit simply because there aren't very many 8B+s / 8Cs / 8C+s, but there are far more 7Cs / 8As, etc. so they naturally spend a lot of their time in that sub maximal zone. This is tricky for your more average punter where there are always quite a lot of problems at both their maximum and sub-80% level, and ego makes it difficult to spend too much time on the easier stuff, when the tantalising possibility of doing something hard hangs over them.

I certainly find it difficult anyway!

[teestub]

as opposed to the classic thing of trying a load of problems that you can likely do in a few goes; it might feel like you've worked hard but it's not actually hard enough to stimulate the gains you're after.

Conversely these essentially the sort of sessions Maisch recommends for building strength. To use the weight lifting analogy you don’t improve your max deadlift by spending session after session trying to pick up an overloaded bar!

[Bradders]

I dunno, I'd say that's too easy. If you can do the whole problem in a few goes at most then it's nowhere near 80%.

[teestub]

https://thenuggetclimbing.com/episodes/steve-maisch

This is the episode for anyone interested, board session structure from about 1:50 although the basis of the the thinking discussed around 32 mins.

[User deactivated.]

I dunno, I'd say that's too easy. If you can do the whole problem in a few goes at most then it's nowhere near 80%.

This isn't true for me on my board. The hardest things I've ever climbed are on my board and on a given day I'll either repeat them within a few tries or not at all. I think the movement on a board is so basic in comparison to rock that moves I can do fairly consistently are way higher than 80%

[Bradders]

Yeah ignore me, realised I'd completely contradicted myself earlier 

I still think trying fully limit moves that might take multiple sessions to do has value. Or at least I hope it does as it's what's in my plan atm haha

I dunno, I'd say that's too easy. If you can do the whole problem in a few goes at most then it's nowhere near 80%.

This isn't true for me on my board. The hardest things I've ever climbed are on my board and on a given day I'll either repeat them within a few tries or not at all. I think the movement on a board is so basic in comparison to rock that moves I can do fairly consistently are way higher than 80%

This doesn't make any sense to me 

[DAVETHOMAS90]

I dunno, I'd say that's too easy. If you can do the whole problem in a few goes at most then it's nowhere near 80%.

This isn't true for me on my board. The hardest things I've ever climbed are on my board and on a given day I'll either repeat them within a few tries or not at all. I think the movement on a board is so basic in comparison to rock that moves I can do fairly consistently are way higher than 80%

I think this is important.

When we talk about % in relation to a problem, it's not the % relative to success on the move/problem, it's the work required to do it. These are different of course.

On a move we've learnt well, we may be very close to our max in terms of critical strength. Our relative lack of strength is evident when we make mistakes - not when we're repeating a movement we've learnt really well.

[DAVETHOMAS90]

as opposed to the classic thing of trying a load of problems that you can likely do in a few goes; it might feel like you've worked hard but it's not actually hard enough to stimulate the gains you're after.

Conversely these essentially the sort of sessions Maisch recommends for building strength. To use the weight lifting analogy you don’t improve your max deadlift by spending session after session trying to pick up an overloaded bar!

Agree.

[Paul B]

I think they do the rest day ride so as to avoid the post rest day slump. I.e you do 10 or so days on then have a day off. Then the next day your body doesn’t want to try hard again, it likes resting.

Perhaps? However, active recovery rides are definitely a thing and my understanding was they're to promote blood flow in muscles which have damage/require nutrients.

[Wellsy]

I wonder if you would actually get more success if you wave loaded intensity on the board in the same way as you wave load for like, Bench Press or whatever.

I'm not a hundred percent sure if you would tbh. I think that because the movement is varied the intensity wouldn't work so well.

[mrjonathanr]

Perhaps? However, active recovery rides are definitely a thing and my understanding was they're to promote blood flow in muscles which have damage/require nutrients.

Since I have just strained an A2 I think I’m about to test this theory.

[Wellsy]

I think they do the rest day ride so as to avoid the post rest day slump. I.e you do 10 or so days on then have a day off. Then the next day your body doesn’t want to try hard again, it likes resting.

Perhaps? However, active recovery rides are definitely a thing and my understanding was they're to promote blood flow in muscles which have damage/require nutrients.

Does that work for strength training though? Like should I do a very light workout the day after max pullups with weight?

[teestub]

I wonder if you would actually get more success if you wave loaded intensity on the board in the same way as you wave load for like, Bench Press or whatever.

I'm not a hundred percent sure if you would tbh. I think that because the movement is varied the intensity wouldn't work so well.

Perhaps if you’re having 2 board sessions a week you could have a hard project session and an ‘in a few goes’ session, so you get that volume in one session (3-6 reps in weights) and intensity in the other session (1-3 reps). As long as the overall difficulty of the problems is about right, it shouldn’t matter about the movement or whether they are cruxy etc. as that will all even out.

Personally though I think if you’re getting an outdoor session in a week where you’re trying projects (not much chance currently!) then that probably covers the trying hard moves bit quite well.

[Paul B]

Does that work for strength training though? Like should I do a very light workout the day after max pullups with weight?

Your original question was is it a thing; in other sports, I believe yes.

I don't see why if you've done muscle damage that needs repair and blood flow is beneficial for that, why it wouldn't work? Does it matter how the damage was caused? I'm sure other methods are available (contrast baths).

Regardless, I think what's already been agreed by people who are willing to spend an extra half an hour at the wall gently hanging off a campus rung with their feet on the floor that it's unlikely to be the most important part of your training week!

[Wellsy]

Does that work for strength training though? Like should I do a very light workout the day after max pullups with weight?

Your original question was is it a thing; in other sports, I believe yes.

I don't see why if you've done muscle damage that needs repair and blood flow is beneficial for that, why it wouldn't work? Does it matter how the damage was caused? I'm sure other methods are available (contrast baths).

Regardless, I think what's already been agreed by people who are willing to spend an extra half an hour at the wall gently hanging off a campus rung with their feet on the floor that it's unlikely to be the most important part of your training week!

Well my thinking was it might work for endurance and not work for strength development. I'm going to poke around for some papers and see what I find

[SA Chris]

Bet you find papers that say it's good and bad....

[abarro81]

IIRC, the broad conclusions in the literature for anything to do with recovery were (last time I took a quick look) that it seemed like lots of things made people feel better (active rest, contrast baths, massage, compression garments etc.) but none of these significantly improved performance in subsequent tests. That may be because they're useless or may be because marginal gains are hard to measure.