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Steroids/SARMs/PEDS - IFSC, Olympics, Real Rock Wads, etc (Read 5650 times)

teestub

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So BID, Wellsy, did the Slovenians just forget to give any roids to their male comp team? 😂

And what about the Japanese, how come they arenít number 1 in your roid radar?!

Wellsy

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I don't think they gave any to anyone, male or female! Like I said I don't think its a thing in climbing at the moment

BID

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Ahhh alas that I mentioned a country.   :badidea:

Abort abort :)

Theres so much more interesting parts of this than the is 'Janja on gear part' :)

webbo

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This comes across as me and my mate having been doping for years so everybody else must be.

Useful addition to the discussion.

Thanks.
Well according to you and Wellsy everyone who wins at the Olympics is doping. This might be based on your experiences of weight lifting  but itís a bit of sweeping statement.

BID

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This comes across as me and my mate having been doping for years so everybody else must be.

Useful addition to the discussion.

Thanks.
Well according to you and Wellsy everyone who wins at the Olympics is doping. This might be based on your experiences of weight lifting  but itís a bit of sweeping statement.

Ok so thats more useful. I'll have a go at responding to that.

So this topic is a nightmare. Basically my experience of talking to people about this is that people think, if you get popped your a cheater and if you don't you're clean.

Then as they learn more about these things and go deeper down the rabbit hole it becomes more and more clear that what I'm saying, sweeping though it is, is true.

Now. Can I persuade you of this over a forum. No. But in this case I'm not just pissing random statements.

It took me a while to rejig my thinking once I realised this myself, and when I watch sport I don't think, I bet they're on PEDs. I know they're on PEDs and appreciate the massive amount of effort they've put in to get to as good as they are in their field.

Climbing presumably isn't there yet. Hence the thread.

SA Chris

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I'm sure most of the top American boulderers would fail a dope test, for weed, not for 'roids. But it's legal in a lot the states they operate in now anyway.

Adam Lincoln

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Didnít a famous strong boulderer from the other side of the world admit to using them? I seem to remember it was a topic of convo for a while when they lived in Sheff.


 
« Last Edit: January 26, 2022, 09:46:41 am by Adam Lincoln »

SamT

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Didnít a famous strong boulderer from the other side of the world admit to using them? I seem to remember it was a topic of convo for a while when he lived in Sheff.

Pretty sure she admitted it on a recent podcast.

Adam Lincoln

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Didnít a famous strong boulderer from the other side of the world admit to using them? I seem to remember it was a topic of convo for a while when he lived in Sheff.

Pretty sure she admitted it on a recent podcast.

Ahh ok not got round to listening yet. Its on the list.

webbo

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This comes across as me and my mate having been doping for years so everybody else must be.

Useful addition to the discussion.

Thanks.
Well according to you and Wellsy everyone who wins at the Olympics is doping. This might be based on your experiences of weight lifting  but itís a bit of sweeping statement.

Ok so thats more useful. I'll have a go at responding to that.

So this topic is a nightmare. Basically my experience of talking to people about this is that people think, if you get popped your a cheater and if you don't you're clean.

Then as they learn more about these things and go deeper down the rabbit hole it becomes more and more clear that what I'm saying, sweeping though it is, is true.

Now. Can I persuade you of this over a forum. No. But in this case I'm not just pissing random statements.

It took me a while to rejig my thinking once I realised this myself, and when I watch sport I don't think, I bet they're on PEDs. I know they're on PEDs and appreciate the massive amount of effort they've put in to get to as good as they are in their field.

Climbing presumably isn't there yet. Hence the thread.
Well I watch a lot of cycle racing. I have been watching all the cross races and the road season is starting today. Cycling has been rife with PEDís from the word go. However I believe it has cleaned up its act and given the level of testing they have I believe a lot of the new generation are  clean or just inside the line of whatís allowed.
This might be naive given cyclings history but I believe itís a lot cleaner than sports like football and tennis.
As for climbing I imagine there might a lot of young guys who have been down the gym trying to get buff been offered and used gear. Then they go to a wall and they get into climbing and continue to use.
Even if they give up the gear Iím sure I read somewhere as long they keep training their performance will be enhanced from their previous use of PED.

abarro81

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This comes across as me and my mate having been doping for years so everybody else must be.

It comes across to me as "Chris says hi from Ceuse and I know loads of shit you don't but have no intention of writing any of it down so you'll just have to trust me on it". Which I find quite dull.

Fultonius

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Didnít a famous strong boulderer from the other side of the world admit to using them? I seem to remember it was a topic of convo for a while when he lived in Sheff.

Pretty sure she admitted it on a recent podcast.

Are you 100% sure on that, certainly an admission of it in her Crossfit period but I'm totally convinced it was an admission of it during climbing.

At first when you said:

Quote
strong boulderer from the other side of the world admit to using them? I seem to remember it was a topic of convo for a while when he lived in Sheff
I thought you meant to Pooch!

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Janja will have been drug tested a tonne over her career so far Iíd imagine. Was on the testing pool at least one year that i know of. Which means you have to provide whereabouts and you can be randomly tested at any point. Finalists and winners are also tested at events and she isnít a stranger to either of those things.

Itíd be interesting to hear off Graeme if he sees this, to find out how regular that testing is in events. I was at maybe half a dozen events when brits got tested, and that was unfortunately without winning loads of medals, Iíd imagine the Slovenian team see far more tests than this.

BID

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This comes across as me and my mate having been doping for years so everybody else must be.

Useful addition to the discussion.

Thanks.
Well according to you and Wellsy everyone who wins at the Olympics is doping. This might be based on your experiences of weight lifting  but itís a bit of sweeping statement.

Ok so thats more useful. I'll have a go at responding to that.

So this topic is a nightmare. Basically my experience of talking to people about this is that people think, if you get popped your a cheater and if you don't you're clean.

Then as they learn more about these things and go deeper down the rabbit hole it becomes more and more clear that what I'm saying, sweeping though it is, is true.

Now. Can I persuade you of this over a forum. No. But in this case I'm not just pissing random statements.

It took me a while to rejig my thinking once I realised this myself, and when I watch sport I don't think, I bet they're on PEDs. I know they're on PEDs and appreciate the massive amount of effort they've put in to get to as good as they are in their field.

Climbing presumably isn't there yet. Hence the thread.
Well I watch a lot of cycle racing. I have been watching all the cross races and the road season is starting today. Cycling has been rife with PEDís from the word go. However I believe it has cleaned up its act and given the level of testing they have I believe a lot of the new generation are  clean or just inside the line of whatís allowed.
This might be naive given cyclings history but I believe itís a lot cleaner than sports like football and tennis.
As for climbing I imagine there might a lot of young guys who have been down the gym trying to get buff been offered and used gear. Then they go to a wall and they get into climbing and continue to use.
Even if they give up the gear Iím sure I read somewhere as long they keep training their performance will be enhanced from their previous use of PED.

I believe it generally goes like this. Testing gets better and more consistent and less corrupt. So athletes that were once using compounds without reference to their half lives (basically going full bore), start using things which clear out fast, this is less effective and largely the reason that in weightlifting almost no one hits the 1980s numbers, they're on drugs, but less and cycled off more often.
If you are taking compounds with a 1 day half life and you can delay a tester by a day you're clean. This is one of a myriad of murky ways that exist.
Also I'm not sure WADA is less corrupt.

Now in climbing this murky knowledge isn't going to be too strong, so I do think WADA is a good deterrent. But elite coaches know elite coaches. Go to a training camp in the mountains border checks etc. Is it happening in climbing, probably not. Will it soon, in certain countries I wouldn't be at all suprised.

However your point is an important one, if you take a load of drugs for 2 years whilst you're untested, those things don't go away. You're better forever.

I'm far more interested personally in PEDs in real rock where it's untested. I'm as you can tell pretty consigned when it comes to doping when there are olympic medals available. When the prime minister of somethingStan wants medals and is actively talking to the minister of sport about it, then WADA gets stopped at the borders. I think it's unavoidable.

gme

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No idea as to whether its being used in climbing nor have i witnessed or heard hard facts about its use in the 35+ years i have been in the sport, but i do know its getting pretty common for teenage and early 20 year old lads to be using PEDs and generally accepted as normal by them.

My youngest (18) plays rugby at a decent level and talks about kids who he plays with, both at school and some at academy level, who openly talk about being or getting on the roids. Hes been offered them loads of times, has team mates taking them and has seen kids taking them both orally and injecting. No testing at school level and very little at academy. At 17/18 i dont think its easy to put on bulk but i have seen huge kids at rugby games, and not fat either just 100kg of muscle type kids.

Its a sport of giants and if your not big enough you are not progressing so the lads do whats needed to get there. South Africa has a major problem with it at academy level and quite a few cases coming to light in Australia.

Taking protein supplements, multi vits and the likes of creatine seemed hard core 20 years ago, but now i can hardly walk around my office without seeing a tub of Whey protein on someones desk. I guess PEDs are the modern age version of my creatine. 

I wont be surprised at all if they are being used by climbers.

Would i use them if it made me climb like i did 20 years ago and i thought them safe, probably yes.


BID

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Janja will have been drug tested a tonne over her career so far Iíd imagine. Was on the testing pool at least one year that i know of. Which means you have to provide whereabouts and you can be randomly tested at any point. Finalists and winners are also tested at events and she isnít a stranger to either of those things.

Itíd be interesting to hear off Graeme if he sees this, to find out how regular that testing is in events. I was at maybe half a dozen events when brits got tested, and that was unfortunately without winning loads of medals, Iíd imagine the Slovenian team see far more tests than this.

Elite sprinters are tested a lot more than any of these people but they be v juicy.

It would be interesting to know if WADA show up on anyone's doorstep unannounced and demand them to have a pee. It happens in other sports but I don't know if that's just too expensive to justify in climbing.


sdm

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Yep, sprinters, cyclists, long distance runners etc get tested loads but doping is still a huge problem in all of them.

The doping is more subtle than in the old days but the dopers are mostly several steps ahead of the testers.

Doping is common in strength sports, endurance sports and strength endurance sports so I assume there are plenty of ways doping would give you an edge in climbing.

I've no idea how commonplace or organised doping is in elite climbing but I would be shocked if all of the competition climbers or all of the elite outdoor climbers were clean.

webbo

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PEDís have been used in mountaineering for years. A now deceased mate was given speed as aid to get him down off an alpine summit due to him being exhausted. Also the first one day ascent of the nose was apparently helped by the use of pharmaceuticalís.

SamT

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[

Are you 100% sure on that, certainly an admission of it in her Crossfit period but I'm totally convinced it was an admission of it during climbing.


IIRC, She said he (sic) used to recover from some injury or some such, whilst climbing, but during the crossfit years was just full bore using, along with recreational drugs and ended up in a pretty bad way (to say the least) mentally. Would have to listen to it again to be sure.

not_an_athlete

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Didnít a famous strong boulderer from the other side of the world admit to using them? I seem to remember it was a topic of convo for a while when he lived in Sheff.

Pretty sure she admitted it on a recent podcast.

Pretty sure it was BPC-157, which is a peptide rather than a steroid or SARM

Are you 100% sure on that, certainly an admission of it in her Crossfit period but I'm totally convinced it was an admission of it during climbing.

At first when you said:

Quote
strong boulderer from the other side of the world admit to using them? I seem to remember it was a topic of convo for a while when he lived in Sheff
I thought you meant to Pooch!

not_an_athlete

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Pretty sure it was BPC-157, which is a peptide rather than a steroid or SARM

Managed to mess up the quote system in my last message

mrjonathanr

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If I wanted to look anxiously at what Olympic pressures might make people do in a sport, it wouldn't be at power lifters but at a sport more similar to climbing like gymnastics. Does the OP think juicing is rife there?


BID

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Yes. Absolutely 100 percent rife.

Its hard to adequately explain the advantages of steroids on performance. You can train more. Recover more. Much more.
Sessions and progress is much more predictable. Your tenacity is increased so you're willing to train harder when mentally and physically fatigued. You can progress on worse sleep. On higher stress.

So given that you can train more, recover faster, you rarely have a 'bad day' at training. The number of quality sessions of work that can be done is much higher.

The ability of a natural athlete to compete with that is ludicrous.
And in all of that i didn't even mention muscle strength/power development.

So the pressure to do it is that if you don't you lose. And more than that you're simply not elite. Not top 10 or 20 or 100.

And it would be the same in gymnastics. Honestly its hard to think of a sport it wouldn't help enormously. Fencing comes to mind. But recovery. Mental tenacity. Number of sessions.

So yes. All sports that are mature it is rife from everything I've digged into.

Different countries do it differently. It would be individual in the states, it would be coaching house by coaching House in some countries and it would be entirely centralised in China or Russia and various other places. And the more centralised the less one worries, about cycling off, about testing, about those things and the more potent compounds that can be used. Thats what I don't like about it, the inequality across countries. I have no real opinion on steroids themselves.

Hopefully this makes sense.

Caveat! Climbing is not a mature sport. Yet. So this isn't me casting aspersions per se. More commenting on the ways of elite sporting world for more mature sports.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2022, 09:05:41 pm by BID »

webbo

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Ok Bid what about some evidence to back your 100% rife. Yes Iím sure there is doping in all sports but what you are implying is that there systemic doping in all sports. Which would mean its supported by National federations and everyone else is on it.

BID

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No. I didn't say systematic in all countries. Is sport England aware of doping, probably, are they anywhere near it, absolutely not.

It varies from country to country. greatly.

I was clear about that in my previous diatribe.

And I'm not going to go trawling for evidence.

This is the understanding I've built up based on spending lots and lots of hours watching and looking around at different things and thinking critically about what I believe, what adds up. And who stands to profit from the words I'm hearing/ reading.

But to be fair Webbo you don't have to believe a word I say. I'm not backing it up with evidence. I'm just a man on the Internet just like you.

I opened this thread to have a discussion on what people thought about doping in climbing.

The aim wasnt for me to try to educate UKB on doping in elite sport. I'm not the man for that. it's just gone that way. I was somewhat foolish to think it wouldn't.

 

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