[BID]

I'd like to bring this question up again. It's been 14 years since the previous steroids thread.

I read the thread about Lexicon E11/7A before posting this, and I don't want to bring it back to the Malc/Gresh question etc.

However:

Climbing is in the olympics now. More and more people are being traditionally coached, the 'sport of climbing' becomes more mainstream every day.

Many lower income countries give huge rewards for medals at the olympics. Mo money mo problems.

SARMs can be bought legally, and are similarly effective to traditional testosterone based steroids (barring the gain in tenacity which traditional steroids give and a few other things).

Certain SARMs (thinking Ostarine) have been shown to have a tangible impact on tendon thickness, and specialise in maintenance of muscle mass on a cutting phase. All whilst not being particularly testosterone suppressive.

Steroids/SARMs don't make you heavy if you're not in a calorie surplus, they just mean you recover faster, get stronger, everything is improved.

Also the whole 'you'll get too strong and rip your tendons apart' seems to be scare mongering pseudo science at best. Similar to you'll die or go into roid rage all the time. If you're railing trenbolone by the gram, sure, if you're nice and sensible, absolutely not.

Every mature sport I can think of, running, cycling, weightlifting, swimming, Judo etc etc, is rife with PED use at the elite level. This isn't really even a secret if you have more than a superficial interest in these things.

So guys, how juicy is climbing, and how juicy will it be in 5 years. Both in terms on real rock and plastic. If the Slovenian weightlifting team got as strong as the Slovenian climbing team over a 4 year period I'd be laughing my socks off (think the Italian weightlifting team in the last 4 years).

The idea that climbing doesn't have this is crazy to me. Someone elite on the rock, Nalle, Ondra, Jimmy Webb, etc etc spend their lives chasing small edges. When I think of all other sports, those people who spend their lives chasing small edges very very often take PEDs. Why should climbing be different.

My general opinion on this is the same as when I watch Lasha Talakhadze total 492KG. Is he clean. Absolutely not. Is anyone in elite weightlifting. Absolutely not. Does the reduce how impressive it is, absolutely not.

[lagerstarfish]

I just want to feel younger

Human Gresh Hormones are probably the answers

[BID]

Ha, HGH is weirdly overrated from all of my research. Human Gresh Hormone obviously is different.

Though people who say TRT isn't a PED are mad. If your base testosterone at 25 is 500 (very normal). And TRT takes you up to the top of what a physical genetic specimen can be (800)  at the age of 40, 50 or 60, you're juicing.

Get on it Lagers :D

[lagerstarfish]

I used to work occasional shifts at the juice clinic.
Some of the older guys are very enthusiastic about what they do.

[Fiend]

Hey, those guys chase desperate slopers and minging pockets, as well as small edges....

[Wellsy]

This is an interesting topic because I am not sure if British climbing in particular will be more suspicious due to the legacy of Gaskins, or less due to the lack of history of PED use in the discipline/sport

[lagerstarfish]

Ha, HGH is weirdly overrated from all of my research. Human Gresh Hormone obviously is different.

Though people who say TRT isn't a PED are mad. If your base testosterone at 25 is 500 (very normal). And TRT takes you up to the top of what a physical genetic specimen can be (800)  at the age of 40, 50 or 60, you're juicing.

Get on it Lagers :D

Bro Science is very clear that every male my age should be taking something to restore their testosterone levels.
I just worry about the combination of grumpy-old-man syndrome combined with testosterone. I regularly feel like ripping people's heads off, I just lack the full motivation to do it - maybe it's better that way.

Edit
The real danger would be for bad drivers encountered on my cycle commute

[BID]

Ha, HGH is weirdly overrated from all of my research. Human Gresh Hormone obviously is different.

Though people who say TRT isn't a PED are mad. If your base testosterone at 25 is 500 (very normal). And TRT takes you up to the top of what a physical genetic specimen can be (800)  at the age of 40, 50 or 60, you're juicing.

Get on it Lagers :D

Bro Science is very clear that every male my age should be taking something to restore their testosterone levels.
I just worry about the combination of grumpy-old-man syndrome combined with testosterone. I regularly feel like ripping people's heads off, I just lack the full motivation to do it - maybe it's better that way.

Edit
The real danger would be for bad drivers encountered on my cycle commute

I fear the idea of you on the gritstone with boosted test.

I still have vivid memories of watching one of your beta videos 5 years ago and going, well that looks piss, bet I'm stronger than him.

Oh what a fool I was.

[lagerstarfish]

 

[Nails]

I'd be inclined to agree with BID's ideas on this. Does anyone know what the testing regime for climbing is outside of the Olympics? I was under the impression there wasn't much. It would be useful then to look at significant dips in competition performance for individuals competing in say the Olympics versus those comps where the testing is light/negligible.

[teestub]

It would be useful then to look at significant dips in competition performance for individuals competing in say the Olympics versus those comps where the testing is light/negligible.

I guess this technique might work for something like cycling, particularly time trialling, or weight lifting, but I think this skill aspect of climbing would stymie and such data comparison. Too easy for people to misread a sequence or just miss a move.

The IFSC is fully signed up to the WADA stuff, but I couldn’t find any reports on how many people were tested annually etc. https://www.ifsc-climbing.org/index.php

[Wellsy]

Being signed up to WADA and having regular testing wouldn't stop a culture of committed PED use, I think the reason climbing might not have it is just a lack of that culture in training compared to other sports.

[BID]

In an immature sport like climbing, in a country that doesn't have a deep culture of doping in professional sports, WADA will serve as a strong deterrent to cycle off with plenty of time.

As climbing matures as a sport then knowledge will grow on getting around doping.

Also you have to factor in China. For example, the Chinese weightlifting team will rock up at the event off their tits, because you don't pop China. I don't know if that extends to other Chinese competitors.

But WADA is deeply corrupt. As is the IOC.

It goes like this for me, a country that is medal hungry, not a western country generally, where the coaches may have grown up in a world and have contacts in other sports. That country has a huge doping head start, it then proliferates from there.

I personally don't care about doping in the Olympics, I'm more interested in the trickle down effect onto real rock.

[BID]

You know how its really hard to get forearm hypertrophy.

How about a 10 week heavy cycle of testosterone and dianabol. Don't train anything but finger boarding. Slight calorie surplus. Large gains in forearm size.

Then spend the next 3 months on strength realisation. And pair that with something juicy for tendon strength and density hangs for protection.

I just wonder whether its happening yet.

The fact that I can hypothise this as a non elite coach or sportsman makes me think surely it is.

[teestub]

Do you consider lack of muscle development in the forearm to be a limiting factor for elite rock climbers?

It goes like this for me, a country that is medal hungry, not a western country generally, where the coaches may have grown up in a world and have contacts in other sports. That country has a huge doping head start, it then proliferates from there.

Are you saying that this has already happened or is likely to happen?

Also China aren’t really anywhere in climbing, think they have one female lead climber (YueTong Zhang) who is half decent?

[BID]

China are nowhere but medals are medals. And I'm interested in this in the longer term.
I mentioned China is more to make a point about the nuisances involved in just saying 'they're tested'. How? When? Which country? How much notice? Are the testers stopped at the border (Iran). Is the country too politically protected to pop, China. One needs to be careful when simply asking if they're tested. Half-life of compounds is also a huge thing.

And for forearm size I've no idea. I'm just spitballing. It may be absolute bullshit of course and the limiting factor may not be forearm muscle output but neurological or tendon based.
But I'll make a guess, and I defer to my betters here, that if you took an elite climber, whos made all realistic finger strength gains, and just added 20 percent extra muscle to their forearms (some would be lost post cycle and this may take many cycles??) and then let them train for another year to use it. Interesting things would happen.

As for if the doping in countries is already happening on a systematic level, no idea. Slovenia is obviously a candidate. But I think it will be a slow thing. Not a light bulb.

I just love the topic. Steroids and elite sports really are one and the same. And climbing I'm sure has had its practitioners, but only now with Olympic medals, state sponsored doping, cash for medals etc does it get the big push. Also SARMs really is a game changer for your arbitrary 8B wad on Rock who wants to climb 8C+ but doesn't have the connections needed to go to full steroids.

[teestub]

As for if the doping in countries is already happening on a systematic level, no idea. Slovenia is obviously a candidate. But I think it will be a slow thing. Not a light bulb.

I'm going to leave all the rest aside but pick up on this.

I thought you might be thinking Slovenia when you said 'not western'. I'm assuming you're not aware of, or are ignoring, the huge climbing culture of the country? They've been successful in comps for decades and have produced excellent alpinists and sport climbers too. Although perhaps you think they were all doping! If you don't know, worth reading up on Slovenian climbing and that of the Former Yugoslavia in general.

[BID]

Ha of course, the part you picked up on is the part I teetered on even writing. Of course.

I don't know about Slovenia, I'll happily delete that part of the comment

However my main knowledge is around things like Olympic weightlifting. And when I think systematic doping I naturally think more around ex soviet states. Other countries do it of course, I've already mentioned China. Indonesia. Columbia are especially bad. And even in countries where it isn't controlled by the local governing body or coaching team or whatever, it's still prevalent, just more individually managed.

So regardless of the rich climbing history, we have a big rise of quality of the whole team over a 4 year period. Could it be good training and systems. Absolutely.

But come on, if we're going to put a bet down on a country having instated systematic doping in climbing, would your money be elsewhere? Does that mean the bet pays off. No. But they're not a bad bet.

[Adam Lincoln]

I do hope someone from Slovenian climbing team reads this. 🤣

Absolute unfounded suggestion of doping from someone in the UK with absolutely no real knowledge.

Brilliant.

[Wellsy]

I think that the interesting part for me is like... there's no discourse around the top sport climbers in comps potentially juicing.

And how many Olympic sports are like that? Very few of the athletic ones. Track and field, weights, swimming, cycling... these are all sorts where PEDs are rife and it's very well know. There is obviously variation. But elite swimmers, cyclists, sprinters being on PEDs is a known, almost assumed thing.

And once you get out the Olympics... look at the crossfit games. All juicing, every one (can't prove it but I believe it). I don't actually believe that the top climbers are on PEDs for what it's worth; I don't think there's the money or expertise to do it and pass the tests. But I think it seems possible that in the next Olympic cycle, it might be.

Slovenia having a strong climbing history is neither here nor there for me, it's their comp dominance that in other sports that would get eyes on. Thing is; is there the money in climbing for that kind of use under scrutiny right now? I don't know. But there could be in future, and BID is right, you get money for medals in a lot of places. Alberto got over $111k for his gold. I'm not saying he is juicy (at all) but for that kind of money people might be tempted, you know?

[BID]

Fine I'm silly and shouldn't have said a country. I beg forgiveness. I won't delete it because it will foul up the actual sense of the thread.

But I shall go and say my 10 Hail Gaskins to the gritstone gods. I have been unwise.

Team Slovenia. If you read this, if you're not on the juice, get on it, rule the world my strong friends!

[Wellsy]

I do hope someone from Slovenian climbing team reads this. 🤣

Absolute unfounded suggestion of doping from someone in the UK with absolutely no real knowledge.

Brilliant.

I will say this; in most Olympic sports saying "the winners are all doping" is more likely than not. BID is coming at this from an Oly Weightlifting experience, and they 100% all are.

I don't actually think Climbers are, if I had to bet. But is it possible? Could they? Would they? I dunno nobody thinks anyone would until they learn they all do. Nobody thinks anyone could until they learn how many are.

[BID]

I will say this; in most Olympic sports saying "the winners elite competitors are all doping" is more likely than not.

fixed

[webbo]

This comes across as me and my mate having been doping for years so everybody else must be.

[BID]

This comes across as me and my mate having been doping for years so everybody else must be.

Useful addition to the discussion.

Thanks.