[BID]

I'd like to bring this question up again. It's been 14 years since the previous steroids thread.

I read the thread about Lexicon E11/7A before posting this, and I don't want to bring it back to the Malc/Gresh question etc.

However:

Climbing is in the olympics now. More and more people are being traditionally coached, the 'sport of climbing' becomes more mainstream every day.

Many lower income countries give huge rewards for medals at the olympics. Mo money mo problems.

SARMs can be bought legally, and are similarly effective to traditional testosterone based steroids (barring the gain in tenacity which traditional steroids give and a few other things).

Certain SARMs (thinking Ostarine) have been shown to have a tangible impact on tendon thickness, and specialise in maintenance of muscle mass on a cutting phase. All whilst not being particularly testosterone suppressive.

Steroids/SARMs don't make you heavy if you're not in a calorie surplus, they just mean you recover faster, get stronger, everything is improved.

Also the whole 'you'll get too strong and rip your tendons apart' seems to be scare mongering pseudo science at best. Similar to you'll die or go into roid rage all the time. If you're railing trenbolone by the gram, sure, if you're nice and sensible, absolutely not.

Every mature sport I can think of, running, cycling, weightlifting, swimming, Judo etc etc, is rife with PED use at the elite level. This isn't really even a secret if you have more than a superficial interest in these things.

So guys, how juicy is climbing, and how juicy will it be in 5 years. Both in terms on real rock and plastic. If the Slovenian weightlifting team got as strong as the Slovenian climbing team over a 4 year period I'd be laughing my socks off (think the Italian weightlifting team in the last 4 years).

The idea that climbing doesn't have this is crazy to me. Someone elite on the rock, Nalle, Ondra, Jimmy Webb, etc etc spend their lives chasing small edges. When I think of all other sports, those people who spend their lives chasing small edges very very often take PEDs. Why should climbing be different.

My general opinion on this is the same as when I watch Lasha Talakhadze total 492KG. Is he clean. Absolutely not. Is anyone in elite weightlifting. Absolutely not. Does the reduce how impressive it is, absolutely not.

[lagerstarfish]

I just want to feel younger

Human Gresh Hormones are probably the answers

[BID]

Ha, HGH is weirdly overrated from all of my research. Human Gresh Hormone obviously is different.

Though people who say TRT isn't a PED are mad. If your base testosterone at 25 is 500 (very normal). And TRT takes you up to the top of what a physical genetic specimen can be (800)  at the age of 40, 50 or 60, you're juicing.

Get on it Lagers :D

[lagerstarfish]

I used to work occasional shifts at the juice clinic.
Some of the older guys are very enthusiastic about what they do.

[Fiend]

Hey, those guys chase desperate slopers and minging pockets, as well as small edges....

[Wellsy]

This is an interesting topic because I am not sure if British climbing in particular will be more suspicious due to the legacy of Gaskins, or less due to the lack of history of PED use in the discipline/sport

[lagerstarfish]

Ha, HGH is weirdly overrated from all of my research. Human Gresh Hormone obviously is different.

Though people who say TRT isn't a PED are mad. If your base testosterone at 25 is 500 (very normal). And TRT takes you up to the top of what a physical genetic specimen can be (800)  at the age of 40, 50 or 60, you're juicing.

Get on it Lagers :D

Bro Science is very clear that every male my age should be taking something to restore their testosterone levels.
I just worry about the combination of grumpy-old-man syndrome combined with testosterone. I regularly feel like ripping people's heads off, I just lack the full motivation to do it - maybe it's better that way.

Edit
The real danger would be for bad drivers encountered on my cycle commute

[BID]

Ha, HGH is weirdly overrated from all of my research. Human Gresh Hormone obviously is different.

Though people who say TRT isn't a PED are mad. If your base testosterone at 25 is 500 (very normal). And TRT takes you up to the top of what a physical genetic specimen can be (800)  at the age of 40, 50 or 60, you're juicing.

Get on it Lagers :D

Bro Science is very clear that every male my age should be taking something to restore their testosterone levels.
I just worry about the combination of grumpy-old-man syndrome combined with testosterone. I regularly feel like ripping people's heads off, I just lack the full motivation to do it - maybe it's better that way.

Edit
The real danger would be for bad drivers encountered on my cycle commute

I fear the idea of you on the gritstone with boosted test.

I still have vivid memories of watching one of your beta videos 5 years ago and going, well that looks piss, bet I'm stronger than him.

Oh what a fool I was.

[lagerstarfish]

 

[Nails]

I'd be inclined to agree with BID's ideas on this. Does anyone know what the testing regime for climbing is outside of the Olympics? I was under the impression there wasn't much. It would be useful then to look at significant dips in competition performance for individuals competing in say the Olympics versus those comps where the testing is light/negligible.

[teestub]

It would be useful then to look at significant dips in competition performance for individuals competing in say the Olympics versus those comps where the testing is light/negligible.

I guess this technique might work for something like cycling, particularly time trialling, or weight lifting, but I think this skill aspect of climbing would stymie and such data comparison. Too easy for people to misread a sequence or just miss a move.

The IFSC is fully signed up to the WADA stuff, but I couldn’t find any reports on how many people were tested annually etc. https://www.ifsc-climbing.org/index.php

[Wellsy]

Being signed up to WADA and having regular testing wouldn't stop a culture of committed PED use, I think the reason climbing might not have it is just a lack of that culture in training compared to other sports.

[BID]

In an immature sport like climbing, in a country that doesn't have a deep culture of doping in professional sports, WADA will serve as a strong deterrent to cycle off with plenty of time.

As climbing matures as a sport then knowledge will grow on getting around doping.

Also you have to factor in China. For example, the Chinese weightlifting team will rock up at the event off their tits, because you don't pop China. I don't know if that extends to other Chinese competitors.

But WADA is deeply corrupt. As is the IOC.

It goes like this for me, a country that is medal hungry, not a western country generally, where the coaches may have grown up in a world and have contacts in other sports. That country has a huge doping head start, it then proliferates from there.

I personally don't care about doping in the Olympics, I'm more interested in the trickle down effect onto real rock.

[BID]

You know how its really hard to get forearm hypertrophy.

How about a 10 week heavy cycle of testosterone and dianabol. Don't train anything but finger boarding. Slight calorie surplus. Large gains in forearm size.

Then spend the next 3 months on strength realisation. And pair that with something juicy for tendon strength and density hangs for protection.

I just wonder whether its happening yet.

The fact that I can hypothise this as a non elite coach or sportsman makes me think surely it is.

[teestub]

Do you consider lack of muscle development in the forearm to be a limiting factor for elite rock climbers?

It goes like this for me, a country that is medal hungry, not a western country generally, where the coaches may have grown up in a world and have contacts in other sports. That country has a huge doping head start, it then proliferates from there.

Are you saying that this has already happened or is likely to happen?

Also China aren’t really anywhere in climbing, think they have one female lead climber (YueTong Zhang) who is half decent?

[BID]

China are nowhere but medals are medals. And I'm interested in this in the longer term.
I mentioned China is more to make a point about the nuisances involved in just saying 'they're tested'. How? When? Which country? How much notice? Are the testers stopped at the border (Iran). Is the country too politically protected to pop, China. One needs to be careful when simply asking if they're tested. Half-life of compounds is also a huge thing.

And for forearm size I've no idea. I'm just spitballing. It may be absolute bullshit of course and the limiting factor may not be forearm muscle output but neurological or tendon based.
But I'll make a guess, and I defer to my betters here, that if you took an elite climber, whos made all realistic finger strength gains, and just added 20 percent extra muscle to their forearms (some would be lost post cycle and this may take many cycles??) and then let them train for another year to use it. Interesting things would happen.

As for if the doping in countries is already happening on a systematic level, no idea. Slovenia is obviously a candidate. But I think it will be a slow thing. Not a light bulb.

I just love the topic. Steroids and elite sports really are one and the same. And climbing I'm sure has had its practitioners, but only now with Olympic medals, state sponsored doping, cash for medals etc does it get the big push. Also SARMs really is a game changer for your arbitrary 8B wad on Rock who wants to climb 8C+ but doesn't have the connections needed to go to full steroids.

[teestub]

As for if the doping in countries is already happening on a systematic level, no idea. Slovenia is obviously a candidate. But I think it will be a slow thing. Not a light bulb.

I'm going to leave all the rest aside but pick up on this.

I thought you might be thinking Slovenia when you said 'not western'. I'm assuming you're not aware of, or are ignoring, the huge climbing culture of the country? They've been successful in comps for decades and have produced excellent alpinists and sport climbers too. Although perhaps you think they were all doping! If you don't know, worth reading up on Slovenian climbing and that of the Former Yugoslavia in general.

[BID]

Ha of course, the part you picked up on is the part I teetered on even writing. Of course.

I don't know about Slovenia, I'll happily delete that part of the comment

However my main knowledge is around things like Olympic weightlifting. And when I think systematic doping I naturally think more around ex soviet states. Other countries do it of course, I've already mentioned China. Indonesia. Columbia are especially bad. And even in countries where it isn't controlled by the local governing body or coaching team or whatever, it's still prevalent, just more individually managed.

So regardless of the rich climbing history, we have a big rise of quality of the whole team over a 4 year period. Could it be good training and systems. Absolutely.

But come on, if we're going to put a bet down on a country having instated systematic doping in climbing, would your money be elsewhere? Does that mean the bet pays off. No. But they're not a bad bet.

[Adam Lincoln]

I do hope someone from Slovenian climbing team reads this. 🤣

Absolute unfounded suggestion of doping from someone in the UK with absolutely no real knowledge.

Brilliant.

[Wellsy]

I think that the interesting part for me is like... there's no discourse around the top sport climbers in comps potentially juicing.

And how many Olympic sports are like that? Very few of the athletic ones. Track and field, weights, swimming, cycling... these are all sorts where PEDs are rife and it's very well know. There is obviously variation. But elite swimmers, cyclists, sprinters being on PEDs is a known, almost assumed thing.

And once you get out the Olympics... look at the crossfit games. All juicing, every one (can't prove it but I believe it). I don't actually believe that the top climbers are on PEDs for what it's worth; I don't think there's the money or expertise to do it and pass the tests. But I think it seems possible that in the next Olympic cycle, it might be.

Slovenia having a strong climbing history is neither here nor there for me, it's their comp dominance that in other sports that would get eyes on. Thing is; is there the money in climbing for that kind of use under scrutiny right now? I don't know. But there could be in future, and BID is right, you get money for medals in a lot of places. Alberto got over $111k for his gold. I'm not saying he is juicy (at all) but for that kind of money people might be tempted, you know?

[BID]

Fine I'm silly and shouldn't have said a country. I beg forgiveness. I won't delete it because it will foul up the actual sense of the thread.

But I shall go and say my 10 Hail Gaskins to the gritstone gods. I have been unwise.

Team Slovenia. If you read this, if you're not on the juice, get on it, rule the world my strong friends!

[Wellsy]

I do hope someone from Slovenian climbing team reads this. 🤣

Absolute unfounded suggestion of doping from someone in the UK with absolutely no real knowledge.

Brilliant.

I will say this; in most Olympic sports saying "the winners are all doping" is more likely than not. BID is coming at this from an Oly Weightlifting experience, and they 100% all are.

I don't actually think Climbers are, if I had to bet. But is it possible? Could they? Would they? I dunno nobody thinks anyone would until they learn they all do. Nobody thinks anyone could until they learn how many are.

[BID]

I will say this; in most Olympic sports saying "the winners elite competitors are all doping" is more likely than not.

fixed

[webbo]

This comes across as me and my mate having been doping for years so everybody else must be.

[BID]

This comes across as me and my mate having been doping for years so everybody else must be.

Useful addition to the discussion.

Thanks.

[teestub]

So BID, Wellsy, did the Slovenians just forget to give any roids to their male comp team? 😂

And what about the Japanese, how come they aren’t number 1 in your roid radar?!

[Wellsy]

I don't think they gave any to anyone, male or female! Like I said I don't think its a thing in climbing at the moment

[BID]

Ahhh alas that I mentioned a country.   

Abort abort

Theres so much more interesting parts of this than the is 'Janja on gear part'

[webbo]

This comes across as me and my mate having been doping for years so everybody else must be.

Useful addition to the discussion.

Thanks.

Well according to you and Wellsy everyone who wins at the Olympics is doping. This might be based on your experiences of weight lifting  but it’s a bit of sweeping statement.

[BID]

This comes across as me and my mate having been doping for years so everybody else must be.

Useful addition to the discussion.

Thanks.

Well according to you and Wellsy everyone who wins at the Olympics is doping. This might be based on your experiences of weight lifting  but it’s a bit of sweeping statement.

Ok so thats more useful. I'll have a go at responding to that.

So this topic is a nightmare. Basically my experience of talking to people about this is that people think, if you get popped your a cheater and if you don't you're clean.

Then as they learn more about these things and go deeper down the rabbit hole it becomes more and more clear that what I'm saying, sweeping though it is, is true.

Now. Can I persuade you of this over a forum. No. But in this case I'm not just pissing random statements.

It took me a while to rejig my thinking once I realised this myself, and when I watch sport I don't think, I bet they're on PEDs. I know they're on PEDs and appreciate the massive amount of effort they've put in to get to as good as they are in their field.

Climbing presumably isn't there yet. Hence the thread.

[SA Chris]

I'm sure most of the top American boulderers would fail a dope test, for weed, not for 'roids. But it's legal in a lot the states they operate in now anyway.

[Adam Lincoln]

Didn’t a famous strong boulderer from the other side of the world admit to using them? I seem to remember it was a topic of convo for a while when they lived in Sheff.


 

[SamT]

Didn’t a famous strong boulderer from the other side of the world admit to using them? I seem to remember it was a topic of convo for a while when he lived in Sheff.

Pretty sure she admitted it on a recent podcast.

[Adam Lincoln]

Didn’t a famous strong boulderer from the other side of the world admit to using them? I seem to remember it was a topic of convo for a while when he lived in Sheff.

Pretty sure she admitted it on a recent podcast.

Ahh ok not got round to listening yet. Its on the list.

[webbo]

This comes across as me and my mate having been doping for years so everybody else must be.

Useful addition to the discussion.

Thanks.

Well according to you and Wellsy everyone who wins at the Olympics is doping. This might be based on your experiences of weight lifting  but it’s a bit of sweeping statement.

Ok so thats more useful. I'll have a go at responding to that.

So this topic is a nightmare. Basically my experience of talking to people about this is that people think, if you get popped your a cheater and if you don't you're clean.

Then as they learn more about these things and go deeper down the rabbit hole it becomes more and more clear that what I'm saying, sweeping though it is, is true.

Now. Can I persuade you of this over a forum. No. But in this case I'm not just pissing random statements.

It took me a while to rejig my thinking once I realised this myself, and when I watch sport I don't think, I bet they're on PEDs. I know they're on PEDs and appreciate the massive amount of effort they've put in to get to as good as they are in their field.

Climbing presumably isn't there yet. Hence the thread.

Well I watch a lot of cycle racing. I have been watching all the cross races and the road season is starting today. Cycling has been rife with PED’s from the word go. However I believe it has cleaned up its act and given the level of testing they have I believe a lot of the new generation are  clean or just inside the line of what’s allowed.
This might be naive given cyclings history but I believe it’s a lot cleaner than sports like football and tennis.
As for climbing I imagine there might a lot of young guys who have been down the gym trying to get buff been offered and used gear. Then they go to a wall and they get into climbing and continue to use.
Even if they give up the gear I’m sure I read somewhere as long they keep training their performance will be enhanced from their previous use of PED.

[abarro81]

This comes across as me and my mate having been doping for years so everybody else must be.

It comes across to me as "Chris says hi from Ceuse and I know loads of shit you don't but have no intention of writing any of it down so you'll just have to trust me on it". Which I find quite dull.

[Fultonius]

Didn’t a famous strong boulderer from the other side of the world admit to using them? I seem to remember it was a topic of convo for a while when he lived in Sheff.

Pretty sure she admitted it on a recent podcast.

Are you 100% sure on that, certainly an admission of it in her Crossfit period but I'm totally convinced it was an admission of it during climbing.

At first when you said:

strong boulderer from the other side of the world admit to using them? I seem to remember it was a topic of convo for a while when he lived in Sheff

I thought you meant to Pooch!

[User deactivated]

Janja will have been drug tested a tonne over her career so far I’d imagine. Was on the testing pool at least one year that i know of. Which means you have to provide whereabouts and you can be randomly tested at any point. Finalists and winners are also tested at events and she isn’t a stranger to either of those things.

It’d be interesting to hear off Graeme if he sees this, to find out how regular that testing is in events. I was at maybe half a dozen events when brits got tested, and that was unfortunately without winning loads of medals, I’d imagine the Slovenian team see far more tests than this.

[BID]

This comes across as me and my mate having been doping for years so everybody else must be.

Useful addition to the discussion.

Thanks.

Well according to you and Wellsy everyone who wins at the Olympics is doping. This might be based on your experiences of weight lifting  but it’s a bit of sweeping statement.

Ok so thats more useful. I'll have a go at responding to that.

So this topic is a nightmare. Basically my experience of talking to people about this is that people think, if you get popped your a cheater and if you don't you're clean.

Then as they learn more about these things and go deeper down the rabbit hole it becomes more and more clear that what I'm saying, sweeping though it is, is true.

Now. Can I persuade you of this over a forum. No. But in this case I'm not just pissing random statements.

It took me a while to rejig my thinking once I realised this myself, and when I watch sport I don't think, I bet they're on PEDs. I know they're on PEDs and appreciate the massive amount of effort they've put in to get to as good as they are in their field.

Climbing presumably isn't there yet. Hence the thread.

Well I watch a lot of cycle racing. I have been watching all the cross races and the road season is starting today. Cycling has been rife with PED’s from the word go. However I believe it has cleaned up its act and given the level of testing they have I believe a lot of the new generation are  clean or just inside the line of what’s allowed.
This might be naive given cyclings history but I believe it’s a lot cleaner than sports like football and tennis.
As for climbing I imagine there might a lot of young guys who have been down the gym trying to get buff been offered and used gear. Then they go to a wall and they get into climbing and continue to use.
Even if they give up the gear I’m sure I read somewhere as long they keep training their performance will be enhanced from their previous use of PED.

I believe it generally goes like this. Testing gets better and more consistent and less corrupt. So athletes that were once using compounds without reference to their half lives (basically going full bore), start using things which clear out fast, this is less effective and largely the reason that in weightlifting almost no one hits the 1980s numbers, they're on drugs, but less and cycled off more often.
If you are taking compounds with a 1 day half life and you can delay a tester by a day you're clean. This is one of a myriad of murky ways that exist.
Also I'm not sure WADA is less corrupt.

Now in climbing this murky knowledge isn't going to be too strong, so I do think WADA is a good deterrent. But elite coaches know elite coaches. Go to a training camp in the mountains border checks etc. Is it happening in climbing, probably not. Will it soon, in certain countries I wouldn't be at all suprised.

However your point is an important one, if you take a load of drugs for 2 years whilst you're untested, those things don't go away. You're better forever.

I'm far more interested personally in PEDs in real rock where it's untested. I'm as you can tell pretty consigned when it comes to doping when there are olympic medals available. When the prime minister of somethingStan wants medals and is actively talking to the minister of sport about it, then WADA gets stopped at the borders. I think it's unavoidable.

[gme]

No idea as to whether its being used in climbing nor have i witnessed or heard hard facts about its use in the 35+ years i have been in the sport, but i do know its getting pretty common for teenage and early 20 year old lads to be using PEDs and generally accepted as normal by them.

My youngest (18) plays rugby at a decent level and talks about kids who he plays with, both at school and some at academy level, who openly talk about being or getting on the roids. Hes been offered them loads of times, has team mates taking them and has seen kids taking them both orally and injecting. No testing at school level and very little at academy. At 17/18 i dont think its easy to put on bulk but i have seen huge kids at rugby games, and not fat either just 100kg of muscle type kids.

Its a sport of giants and if your not big enough you are not progressing so the lads do whats needed to get there. South Africa has a major problem with it at academy level and quite a few cases coming to light in Australia.

Taking protein supplements, multi vits and the likes of creatine seemed hard core 20 years ago, but now i can hardly walk around my office without seeing a tub of Whey protein on someones desk. I guess PEDs are the modern age version of my creatine. 

I wont be surprised at all if they are being used by climbers.

Would i use them if it made me climb like i did 20 years ago and i thought them safe, probably yes.

[BID]

Janja will have been drug tested a tonne over her career so far I’d imagine. Was on the testing pool at least one year that i know of. Which means you have to provide whereabouts and you can be randomly tested at any point. Finalists and winners are also tested at events and she isn’t a stranger to either of those things.

It’d be interesting to hear off Graeme if he sees this, to find out how regular that testing is in events. I was at maybe half a dozen events when brits got tested, and that was unfortunately without winning loads of medals, I’d imagine the Slovenian team see far more tests than this.

Elite sprinters are tested a lot more than any of these people but they be v juicy.

It would be interesting to know if WADA show up on anyone's doorstep unannounced and demand them to have a pee. It happens in other sports but I don't know if that's just too expensive to justify in climbing.

[sdm]

Yep, sprinters, cyclists, long distance runners etc get tested loads but doping is still a huge problem in all of them.

The doping is more subtle than in the old days but the dopers are mostly several steps ahead of the testers.

Doping is common in strength sports, endurance sports and strength endurance sports so I assume there are plenty of ways doping would give you an edge in climbing.

I've no idea how commonplace or organised doping is in elite climbing but I would be shocked if all of the competition climbers or all of the elite outdoor climbers were clean.

[webbo]

PED’s have been used in mountaineering for years. A now deceased mate was given speed as aid to get him down off an alpine summit due to him being exhausted. Also the first one day ascent of the nose was apparently helped by the use of pharmaceutical’s.

[SamT]

[

Are you 100% sure on that, certainly an admission of it in her Crossfit period but I'm totally convinced it was an admission of it during climbing.

IIRC, She said he (sic) used to recover from some injury or some such, whilst climbing, but during the crossfit years was just full bore using, along with recreational drugs and ended up in a pretty bad way (to say the least) mentally. Would have to listen to it again to be sure.

[not_an_athlete]

Didn’t a famous strong boulderer from the other side of the world admit to using them? I seem to remember it was a topic of convo for a while when he lived in Sheff.

Pretty sure she admitted it on a recent podcast.

Pretty sure it was BPC-157, which is a peptide rather than a steroid or SARM

Are you 100% sure on that, certainly an admission of it in her Crossfit period but I'm totally convinced it was an admission of it during climbing.

At first when you said:

strong boulderer from the other side of the world admit to using them? I seem to remember it was a topic of convo for a while when he lived in Sheff

I thought you meant to Pooch!

[not_an_athlete]

Pretty sure it was BPC-157, which is a peptide rather than a steroid or SARM

Managed to mess up the quote system in my last message

[mrjonathanr]

If I wanted to look anxiously at what Olympic pressures might make people do in a sport, it wouldn't be at power lifters but at a sport more similar to climbing like gymnastics. Does the OP think juicing is rife there?

[BID]

Yes. Absolutely 100 percent rife.

Its hard to adequately explain the advantages of steroids on performance. You can train more. Recover more. Much more.
Sessions and progress is much more predictable. Your tenacity is increased so you're willing to train harder when mentally and physically fatigued. You can progress on worse sleep. On higher stress.

So given that you can train more, recover faster, you rarely have a 'bad day' at training. The number of quality sessions of work that can be done is much higher.

The ability of a natural athlete to compete with that is ludicrous.
And in all of that i didn't even mention muscle strength/power development.

So the pressure to do it is that if you don't you lose. And more than that you're simply not elite. Not top 10 or 20 or 100.

And it would be the same in gymnastics. Honestly its hard to think of a sport it wouldn't help enormously. Fencing comes to mind. But recovery. Mental tenacity. Number of sessions.

So yes. All sports that are mature it is rife from everything I've digged into.

Different countries do it differently. It would be individual in the states, it would be coaching house by coaching House in some countries and it would be entirely centralised in China or Russia and various other places. And the more centralised the less one worries, about cycling off, about testing, about those things and the more potent compounds that can be used. Thats what I don't like about it, the inequality across countries. I have no real opinion on steroids themselves.

Hopefully this makes sense.

Caveat! Climbing is not a mature sport. Yet. So this isn't me casting aspersions per se. More commenting on the ways of elite sporting world for more mature sports.

[webbo]

Ok Bid what about some evidence to back your 100% rife. Yes I’m sure there is doping in all sports but what you are implying is that there systemic doping in all sports. Which would mean its supported by National federations and everyone else is on it.

[BID]

No. I didn't say systematic in all countries. Is sport England aware of doping, probably, are they anywhere near it, absolutely not.

It varies from country to country. greatly.

I was clear about that in my previous diatribe.

And I'm not going to go trawling for evidence.

This is the understanding I've built up based on spending lots and lots of hours watching and looking around at different things and thinking critically about what I believe, what adds up. And who stands to profit from the words I'm hearing/ reading.

But to be fair Webbo you don't have to believe a word I say. I'm not backing it up with evidence. I'm just a man on the Internet just like you.

I opened this thread to have a discussion on what people thought about doping in climbing.

The aim wasnt for me to try to educate UKB on doping in elite sport. I'm not the man for that. it's just gone that way. I was somewhat foolish to think it wouldn't.

[Wood FT]

Log

[BID]

My views on  how different countries do it fall broadly in line with what these lads are saying on this video.

This is Olympic weightlifting.

But any sport that is mature I would stronglt expect to act the same. The level of corruption in the word federation of that sport might be different. So some variation. But this gives a better idea than I can be message.

[BID]

Log

Agreed

[teestub]

Do you take steroids yourself BID?

[BID]

Ha. I don't. I'm fundamentally a lazy man.

And a lot of the better steroids require things like nolvadex (post cycle therapies) which is essentially a cancer drug. You need to do blood tests so you don't bollock yourself. Its all around effort.

If my best mate supplied them to me. And I could guarantee consistency and ease I may well do it. But really I'm a 7A punter. I could lose 5 pounds to gain an edge.

I consider SARMs periodically and I wouldn't rule it out. But they'll become illegal to buy at some point.

And currently there aren't many dealers in climbing gyms (that I know of). I'd have to do my conditioning in a regular gym. Effort.

To do steroids safely and well one really does have to do a looot of research. Essentially amateur chemistry. So no, I don't.