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Training different energy systems (Read 15497 times)

petejh

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#75 Re: Training different energy systems
January 27, 2022, 06:10:09 pm
My experiences of training and periodising in a very structured way have been mixed. I tried it for the first time to try to climb my first 8b and it worked a treat - I did a 16 week block over one winter/spring of nothing except indoor training following a plan, and hit a peak and did the Oak in around 10 visits with it feeling easy on the day.

I thought I'd do the same the next year and do Mecca as my first 8b+, grade chasing mode fully on. Like the first time, I sacrificed a winter/early spring of loads of other climbing possibilities and invested 16 weeks into a block of training, thinking I'd feel in great shape when I exited the other side of it. But it never happened, and it ended up turning into a terrible couple of years climbing-wise which I look back on and feel were wasted and that the effort I'd invested wasn't worth the reward of getting to hang out at the tor 2-3 times a week working what was in the big picture a 2-star route, in sub-par connies for 1 out of 3 visits. After a second winter of training and then coming out and failing again, I lost motivation with it all. That was all purely my choice of course - I could have planned the training to peak for a trip to somewhere nice instead!

Mecca held some allure for its PE style and history as it does for many other climbers but in hindsight it was a poor choice. I should have stayed closer to home to make the process more bearable, or lowered the grade aspiration and gone on holiday and used the fitness somewhere brilliant.   

That second experience put me off sacrificing time to training and I haven't tried training in long blocks since then. I think I went too far the other way and have coasted along way below my potential best for the last 4-5 years. One thing that focussing on training defo taught me was my weaknesses - typical strong fingers and decent power but shit aerobic fitness sums it up. So whenever I let myself get lazy it's fairly easy and quick to improve my level by training my aerobic weakness for a few weeks. Without those wasted months indoors I might not have developed as keen an awareness.

This thread's like an alcoholics thread.   
« Last Edit: January 27, 2022, 06:18:36 pm by petejh »

DAVETHOMAS90

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#76 Re: Training different energy systems
February 02, 2022, 06:56:16 am
^^that is what i would suggest.

I thought i was working on power endurance as the rests were so short but i am probably wrong, certainly was brilliant when needing to power through sport cruxes  when pumped

Sounds like a very effective way to build a pump Devonshire; I am glad it worked for you. I don't see how it can be anaerobic capacity because the rests are short; they would need to be fairly long, to deal with the lactate produced and reboot the anaerobic system. To me it sounds like you were digging deep into aerobic systems and boosting your capacity to work with lactate levels. Very important, but not anaerobic.

I'm being super lazy here mrJR, but went off to the boulder tonight, thinking about this thread.

My thoughts, and answer to your post here, echoes Pete's post.

I think the mistake people make - if I can put it that way, is that it's assumed that the energy system you're reliant on at the point of failure, is what you need to train and develop to perform better.

The principle of working your base line aerobic system, is that you can rely on this far more, before having to dip into anaerobic systems.

Thinking about your first post, the words that stood out for me were "when gripped".

I've found that, on good, slightly harder trad routes, having better aerobic capacity allowed me to feel far less stressed/tense, and I could maintain better breathing too. In short, I felt under less pressure.

As an experiment tonight, I started with x 4 single circuits of 16 moves, with quite short rest in between. Working like this, it's surprising how well you can recover between reps without achieving much appreciable training effect on your aerobic system.

After a slightly longer rest, I then did two sets of 2 x 16 moves - double length reps - with slightly longer rest between.
I'm not very fit at the moment, and it shows. However, this anaerobic capacity isn't something that would normally be the deciding factor on harder trad.
Four x single reps to finish.

One of my go to sessions involved traversing at Rubicon (maybe 6b+) between poor rests, recovering enough to do a 7 move problem (~6C) up/down before traversing back to a poor rest. I found it really targeted my capacity for recovery between slightly harder sections.

I also found that it helped me judge how well I was recovering.



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#77 Re: Training different energy systems
February 06, 2022, 07:30:19 pm
Decided after 10 days in Amsterdam with 4 good indoor bouldering sessions, maybe it was time for a re-test of max hangs plus some of the CF test.

Max hangs have gone up a little to 26.9kg so my total has gone up to 105kg from 101kg (1kg extra added & 3kg extra BW since last test, 1kg less using strict HC vs chisel).

Just did my 50% repeaters to failure, but kind of *failed* the protocol instead of muscle failure - I dialled in 25 reps to my timer and ran out of reps!  After a mad dash to reset (so maybe 8 secs rest) I pushed out another 3 reps. I suspect 28 would have been my failure point without the extra rest, 27 worst case. I'll put it down as 27 for now.

Update: 60%: 18 reps. Brutal.

Busy resting up now and will do the next test later. I'll finish off tomorrow I think...
« Last Edit: February 06, 2022, 07:48:42 pm by Fultonius »

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#78 Re: Training different energy systems
February 06, 2022, 07:49:03 pm

I think the mistake people make - if I can put it that way, is that it's assumed that the energy system you're reliant on at the point of failure, is what you need to train and develop to perform better.

The principle of working your base line aerobic system, is that you can rely on this far more, before having to dip into anaerobic systems.

Thinking about your first post, the words that stood out for me were "when gripped".

I've found that, on good, slightly harder trad routes, having better aerobic capacity allowed me to feel far less stressed/tense, and I could maintain better breathing too. In short, I felt under less pressure.
....

I'm not very fit at the moment, and it shows. However, this anaerobic capacity isn't something that would normally be the deciding factor on harder trad.

Hi Dave, thanks for your reply. I do understand the primacy of the aerobic system and your point about it creating the threshold for the glycolytic system kicking in, no argument there. Obviously, you have a lot of direct experience, so your contribution is very welcome. My point is that not fading when there are a lot of moves which feel difficult is supported by the glycolytic system, which needs to be trained over a longer period than pure aerobic capacity. I want both; just anaerobic is the trickier to train, hence the thread.

DAVETHOMAS90

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#79 Re: Training different energy systems
February 06, 2022, 11:49:32 pm
The slightly longer - i.e. double circuits of 15-30 moves seem to hit it quite well. It can be pretty hard/stressful.
However, although we're talking about different energy systems, they aren't independent, as I think a lot of people assume, and oxygen is required for ATP production during more intense efforts as well. Our ability to work purely anaerobically is really short.

The key is how far/well supported we can be by the aerobic, before having to dip into the anaerobic.

What tends to happen, is that due to lower than ideal aerobic capacity, we're dipping into the anaerobic battery far more/sooner than we want. Trad routes have to be pretty darned hard before we're faced with sequences that are hard enough to require a full on anaerobic tussle.*

In other words, when we're failing anaerobically, it's more often than not because the contribution from the aerobic system isn't as good as it could be.

*I can't think of one ;)


« Last Edit: February 07, 2022, 12:17:59 am by DAVETHOMAS90 »

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#80 Re: Training different energy systems
February 07, 2022, 05:57:01 am
Great article here:

https://www.trainheroic.com/blog/energy-systems-what-every-coach-really-needs-to-know/

What I was describing above, with the system I was using in sessions at Rubicon, reflects what this author is describing as higher intensity training of the oxidative process.

I was forcing myself to recover in a stressful situation (a poor shake) and I felt I could sense my body actually working hard to process lactate and oxygen - enough to be able to do the next 10 moves up/down more anaerobically. Recovering between traverses and up/down in poor shake out positions was pretty intense, but seemed to work.

The circuits I was doing the other night (32 moves) had less scope for recovery on the concrete, and keeping rests slightly shorter had a similar but less intense effect.

I think it's a case of designing the balance between high intensity work and recovery.

Interesting to think about ..

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#81 Re: Training different energy systems
February 07, 2022, 06:39:58 pm
Thanks for that Dave, good summary. If you want a more in-depth look at those systems, the links in my first posts may interest you.

You talk about training your aerobic system at Rubicon. Sounds like a great routine, may have to try that later in the spring. Yes, I completely agree, energy production  effectively sits on the aerobic system, its effectiveness underpins everything. Poor aerobic capacity means poor anaerobic capacity after the first blast because it’s needed for recovery (conversion of lactate> back to pyruvate & NAD+) so the glycolytic system can recover and go again.

Quote from:  Dave’s link
Further, the more you train your glycolytic system, the better you’re able to buffer these {hydrogen} ions and the faster you can recover between sets of moderate to high intensity training.

. Recovering from it actually requires work from all three energy systems. Specifically, glycolytic training develops not only the operation of each individual system, but also the capability to transition efficiently between them. The primary methods to train your glycolytic system are through repeated high effort activities with less than full recovery between efforts.

That, in a nutshell, is why I want to train my anaerobic capacity
ie to cope with bouts of moves I find hard, recover and keep going. Recovery of the glycolytic system is highly dependent on the aerobic system but a) takes longer to train and b) I am confident I know how to train this effectively already (though always open to ideas/advice).

A last thought. Short of one move wonders like The Ace, when we think of being strong it’s invariably linking several hard moves together. And that’s powered anaerobically, hence my interest  :)
« Last Edit: February 07, 2022, 06:46:12 pm by mrjonathanr »

DAVETHOMAS90

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#82 Re: Training different energy systems
February 07, 2022, 07:08:01 pm
I think you're looking at them too independently  ;)

It's not what you're lacking anaerobically that's letting you down.

In other words, the split between anaerobic/without oxygen to aerobic/with oxygen isn't how it works.
What I was training at Rubicon, was the buffering effectively.

In the context of your OP, there's the question of bouts of moves you "find hard" - and what you mean by that, and why.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2022, 07:18:17 pm by DAVETHOMAS90 »

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#83 Re: Training different energy systems
February 07, 2022, 07:22:05 pm
No, that’s overall middle aged sluggishness!  :lol:

Seriously though, I don’t think I am looking at them too independently Dave, very aware that function is overlapping but components can be usefully trained independently in stints. FWIW my goal is to be fit in June/July/August and just embrace the improbability of getting out much earlier in the year, so training in a more considered fashion for a change.

 I do think effective training doesn’t just replicate the final goal however, at least not in the early stages of the year. So from Easter, increasingly fitness oriented, from May more replicating the patterns of routes. We’ll have to get out  ;)


DAVETHOMAS90

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#84 Re: Training different energy systems
February 07, 2022, 07:45:51 pm

My end goal is getting on the sharp end of some difficult (for me) trad and knowing there's something in reserve when I'm gripped..   


I don't think that working on what you're calling your anaerobic capacity, in that scenario is what's going to help you best.

I think of it as being a bit like a limited amount of fill-in battery capacity in a hybrid car. Unfortunately, on it's own, it's a really small reserve, and I understand what you're saying about "therefore I want to have more of it available when I need it". However, we're using all energy systems all the time, and on anything remotely stressful, we're dipping into what we refer to as our anaerobic reserves to fill in - ie anaerobic glycolysis

Keeping more of it available for when you need it is more about using less of it until you get there, than having more of it, when you do.

Working more on aerobic glycolysis is where I think you can get the most benefit.

Sorry, I was going to give you a call ;)

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« Last Edit: February 07, 2022, 08:13:59 pm by mrjonathanr »

mrjonathanr

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#86 Re: Training different energy systems
February 07, 2022, 08:22:22 pm

Keeping more of it available for when you need it is more about using less of it until you get there, than having more of it, when you do.

I'm going 'cakeist' on this one  ;)

DAVETHOMAS90

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#87 Re: Training different energy systems
February 07, 2022, 08:59:22 pm
Yes, I've seen one of those -  the video from the Khan accademy.

Circuits of ~30 moves, where the climbing is hard enough to be working "anaerobically", with shorter rests in between is what I've been doing - so that it places greater demands on recovery, and being able to "go again" when still pumped, is how I'd describe it.

I've found that shorter circuits won't put sufficient demands on recovery.

What I was trying to emphasise was the demands on recovery. I think "anaerobic capacity" is a misleading term.
Our capacity to keep working when pumped, isn't analogous to having a bigger (anaerobic) battery.

The topping up of "battery fuel" in an F1 car relies on an oxidative process - in the burning of fuel - and it's the topping up process that we're training - so that the car can go again on the next lap.

Interesting we both used very similar analogies just now.
I think the description of what I was doing at Rubicon may give a different sense of what I meant by "recovery".

In other words, when interval training, it's not the "going again" part that the word interval refers to (and where gains are made), but the recovery phase.

(From my armchair in front of my PC). Cake is a very good idea!

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#88 Re: Training different energy systems
February 07, 2022, 10:52:32 pm

(From my armchair in front of my PC). Cake is a very good idea!

Of course, the substrate for anaerobic respiration is glucose :)

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#89 Re: Training different energy systems
February 07, 2022, 11:13:37 pm
FWIW MrJR - and I know you'll deny/disagree with this, I put you into the category of those people I know who are naturally far stronger than they think.

That can also lead to being more injury prone - being still able to pull damned hard when otherwise out of condition.

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#90 Re: Training different energy systems
February 08, 2022, 05:32:24 am
I definitely felt I'd not eaten enough cakes tonight, but was a bit too trashed from the FBoard yesterday.. and too much sitting around.

Where I was coming from:

"Lactate is always being produced, but when the aerobic energy system is functioning at a high level relative to the anaerobic demands, lactate is quickly oxidised back to pyruvate with can then be used to fuel further anaerobic metabolism.

This is where it can get a little confusing, but to keep it simple let's just say that the moderate levels of energy produced by the anaerobic lactic system can be supported by the aerobic energy system. An athlete who doesn’t have a well developed aerobic system will not be able to maximise the energy production power of the anaerobic lactic system, and they will not be able to recover between rounds of lactic intervals as quickly as those athletes who do have high levels of aerobic fitness."

https://www.thesustainabletrainingmethod.com/tstm-blog/2018/9/6/energy-systems-part-3anaerobic-lactic-glycolytic

Good to think about further  ;)


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#91 Re: Training different energy systems
February 08, 2022, 08:36:58 am
I love threads like these - as a very time poor climbing dad I am always looking for the most efficient ways to train even if I sometimes struggle to adopt them.

As motivation: can anyone who has adopted energy systems training over multiple seasons explain how it helped progression? Mischa gave a great example of a sort of 'magic bullet' approach, but how has this worked for people over a number of years? Did you get a boost to your onsight/redpoint grade immediately and then each year building on the past efforts, or did it take a bit of time to work out how to make it work for you? Did it rely on having a clear peaking period where you were able to climb loads or can you make it work as a weekend warrior?

I think the only reason there is a magic bullet for me is because I totally misindentified my weaknesses and trained the opposite for a two year period meaning I was superbly aerobically developed but far weaker muscularly/anaerobically. Generally these differences will be more subtle. I ended up in the bizarre situation that I felt I could hang around in a static position and shake out on most holds for absolutely ages, but couldn't do the moves from those holds. I'd also developed a weird habit of trying to shake out after every hard move which meant I climbed slowly. I eventually dealt with this by simply forcing myself to climb faster which then ultimately exposed the fact that I couldn't do the moves even if I arrived at them feeling really fresh.

I was also very strong in an open crimp which helped with resting on smaller holds but much much weaker in a half/full crimp which meant I could often hang onto holds easily but moving off them felt much harder.

All in all a very weird place to be in and I look forward to it being somewhat resolved.

Off topic but something else I did this winter was put the scale away and stop worrying about how much I weigh. Bizarrely this resulted in the first noticeable shift in body composition in years. I suspect I weigh more though. Presumably from all the strength training? It's nice not bothering about it though ;D

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#92 Re: Training different energy systems
February 08, 2022, 09:35:47 am
Off topic but something else I did this winter was put the scale away and stop worrying about how much I weigh. Bizarrely this resulted in the first noticeable shift in body composition in years. I suspect I weigh more though. Presumably from all the strength training? It's nice not bothering about it though ;D

Cycling has totally changed my perception of nutrition but I had to learn the hard way, under fuelling and having a grim time getting home (I'd also managed to knock my network off on my mobile so my attempt to call a lift failed). I wonder how many climbers really damage their progress by not fuelling sufficiently/correctly? Looking back at my own climbing (especially big days on long routes) I've definitely got this wrong.

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#93 Re: Training different energy systems
February 08, 2022, 09:56:48 am
Off topic but something else I did this winter was put the scale away and stop worrying about how much I weigh. Bizarrely this resulted in the first noticeable shift in body composition in years. I suspect I weigh more though. Presumably from all the strength training? It's nice not bothering about it though ;D

Cycling has totally changed my perception of nutrition but I had to learn the hard way, under fuelling and having a grim time getting home (I'd also managed to knock my network off on my mobile so my attempt to call a lift failed). I wonder how many climbers really damage their progress by not fuelling sufficiently/correctly? Looking back at my own climbing (especially big days on long routes) I've definitely got this wrong.

I've had a few big days out where I've undercooked it and had to climb the last 5-6 pitches of a route whilst totally weak/cold/starving... Very grim. And then the walk off!

Didn't want to turn this into a nutrition thread but it's a good point that ancap/power sessions go a lot better in the company of ample carbs.

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#94 Re: Training different energy systems
February 08, 2022, 01:13:48 pm

Didn't want to turn this into a nutrition thread but it's a good point that ancap/power sessions go a lot better in the company of ample carbs.

Without glycogen to lyse there is no glycolysis.

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#95 Re: Training different energy systems
February 08, 2022, 01:22:38 pm
Cycling has totally changed my perception of nutrition but I had to learn the hard way, under fuelling and having a grim time getting home (I'd also managed to knock my network off on my mobile so my attempt to call a lift failed). I wonder how many climbers really damage their progress by not fuelling sufficiently/correctly? Looking back at my own climbing (especially big days on long routes) I've definitely got this wrong.

I've had a couple of bad experiences running too, one involving me running home on a Friday night after work having barely fuelled  all day feeling totally burst about 5 km into the 20 or so and having to find a corner shop and grab a bottle of Lucozade and a packet of chocolate chip cookies, and demolishing them  before i felt well enough to carry on running. I always carry emergency food when running now, anything 10km or more.

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#96 Re: Training different energy systems
February 08, 2022, 05:20:27 pm
I've got quite a well adapted fat system and can go a long way on limited food. However, one thing I read earlier this year maybe helped explain one thing...

I didn't know glycogen couldn't be "shuttled". As far as my limited understanding, once it's gone form a muscle it needs replenished but this can't be supplied from other muscles.

So, doing 10-14km of hilly work I would do fine with no added food/energy drinks etc. But whenever going further, my poor wee weak hip flexors must have been fully out of fuel and really struggling to keep up from burning fat alone, hence the weakness and subsequent IT pain. (I noticed that any run where my hip flexors felt ok, I didn't get IT pain, and it always went in that order, so put it down to a lack of hip flexor endurance.

In the RoS I ate a shedload and, despite being 8km and 1000m more than I'd done before, hips and knees were fine.

This is also very relevant for climbing, as your wee forearms are limited in what they can store.

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#97 Re: Training different energy systems
February 08, 2022, 05:28:24 pm
I've got quite a well adapted fat system and can go a long way on limited food. However, one thing I read earlier this year maybe helped explain one thing...

I didn't know glycogen couldn't be "shuttled". As far as my limited understanding, once it's gone form a muscle it needs replenished but this can't be supplied from other muscles.

The 100g or so stored in the liver is available.

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#98 Re: Training different energy systems
February 09, 2022, 09:52:07 am

Cycling has totally changed my perception of nutrition but I had to learn the hard way, under fuelling and having a grim time getting home (I'd also managed to knock my network off on my mobile so my attempt to call a lift failed). I wonder how many climbers really damage their progress by not fuelling sufficiently/correctly? Looking back at my own climbing (especially big days on long routes) I've definitely got this wrong.

I've had a few big days out where I've undercooked it and had to climb the last 5-6 pitches of a route whilst totally weak/cold/starving... Very grim. And then the walk off!

Didn't want to turn this into a nutrition thread but it's a good point that ancap/power sessions go a lot better in the company of ample carbs.

I always found it very hard to fuel for really long routes. Up to the 6-9 hour mark I am usually fine, at which point my muscle glycogen tends to run out and I am a useless dead weight on the team. (I very much doubt I am under-fueling on a day-to-day basis.) Carbo-loading is often impractical in the mountains as who knows what day the weather will be good enough? I used to do long routes with a mate who did a lot of cross country skiing (the winter season up north is about 6 months) and he did a lot better with the same amount of snacking on route.

What we sometimes forget is that the main energy system used in climbing is aerobic metabolism in the legs. (Shown here https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17602238/ even if the authors themselves did not seem to understand what their experiments  really indicate). I think we forget as this is energy system is never challenged on a normal day of climbing, except possibly for climbers so unfit that the approach to Céüse is close to the lactic threshold. (In which case they are almost out of stored glycogen by the time they are at the base of the crag.) For long days with approaches and lots of climbing, climbers who have better developed fat combustion for easy aerobic work are just going to last a lot longer. While my mate was doing hours of laps on the ski track for hours on end I was messing around on short indoor boulders. No big mystery why he was lasting a lot longer.

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#99 Re: Training different energy systems
February 09, 2022, 05:14:06 pm
Because he had bigger legs?  :-\

 

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