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Sport quickdraws (Read 6335 times)

James Malloch

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Sport quickdraws
January 13, 2022, 11:19:18 am
I’m thinking of getting some new quickdraws as we’ve only got 15 “nice” sport draws which won’t be enough for two of us on our trip.

Looking back, I got my current petzl draws 10 years ago from Adam Lincoln (replaced all the tapes 4/5 years back - can‘t believe how long it‘s been!), so it might be worth thinking about retiring them and well.

Anyway, is there much to think about with sport draws? I guess personal preference, but also from a quality perspective.

Looking around there’s a lot of choice and a big price range. E.g.:

Petzl Spirit Express: £15 / draw
DMM Alpha Sport: £19 /draw
DMM Shadow: £17 / draw
Wild Country Session: £10 / draw
Edelrid: £10 / draw

I guess a lot of it just comes down to personal preference - I’ve liked using the spirits, and also my friends DMM alphas. There will be some weight consideration for onsighting too, though I‘d rather get some which will last and maybe take some lighter trad-style draws as well.

I‘d be interested to know how/when you decide to retire gear too. I’ve been using my draws for 10 years now, and I guess they got a decent (probably more that I‘ve done in the last 10 years) amount of use from Adam too.

All thoughts are welcomed.

spidermonkey09

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#1 Re: Sport quickdraws
January 13, 2022, 11:38:46 am
If the quickdraws aren't worn or sharp then they're fine in my book, but obviously everyone differs. Even if they are sharp I'd just change that biner out for a new one.


Duncan campbell

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#2 Re: Sport quickdraws
January 13, 2022, 11:45:54 am
Regarding how long to use your kit for, metal gear if in good nick has an "infinite" life span. Obviously if ifs worn loads or corroded then be worth retiring but dont just retire metal kit on age alone. Plastic kit has something like 10 years from manufacture if not used but 5 from once its first used. Though this is all just IRATA stuff and I'm no kit inspection expert!

I don't actually own any snazzy sport draws (Mine are just beefy wiregates of varying brands with fat tapes) but I think I prefer Shadows to Alphas as they have the same gate that makes clipping easier but the basket is shallower so its easier to get them out of bolts when stripping. Maybe there is a reason alphas have a deep basket but that is just what I have noticed from using the wiregate versions.

spidermonkey09

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#3 Re: Sport quickdraws
January 13, 2022, 11:56:23 am

I don't actually own any snazzy sport draws (Mine are just beefy wiregates of varying brands with fat tapes) but I think I prefer Shadows to Alphas as they have the same gate that makes clipping easier but the basket is shallower so its easier to get them out of bolts when stripping. Maybe there is a reason alphas have a deep basket but that is just what I have noticed from using the wiregate versions.

I don't really rate the Alphas ether, find them really awkward to get into expansion bolts sometimes when onsighting. Plus everyone has them in the UK so its fairly likely they'll get nicked/inadvertently end up in someone elses bag...

cheque

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#4 Re: Sport quickdraws
January 13, 2022, 12:09:03 pm
easier to get them out of bolts when stripping.

Mine are a mix of Mammut… (searches Google Images) …Bionics and DMM Shadows.

The Shadows are fine and while the Mammut ones work great for clipping the rope, their hooky shape frequently makes them a pain in the arse to get out of bolts on overhanging routes and into bolts with a clip stick- worse than Alphas. They almost need separate horizontal and vertical motions to get them on or off bolts which you don’t notice when putting them in on lead but in other situations it becomes frustrating.

I wouldn’t recommend lightweight trad crabs (I’m thinking yer DMM Phantom type) for sport unless they’re going to be a special set you only use for onsight burns as they’re just not designed to stand up to being repeatedly used on expansion bolt-type hangers and their thin radius is bad for ropes when you’re dogging/ whipping/ lowering on them all the time.

remus

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#5 Re: Sport quickdraws
January 13, 2022, 12:21:28 pm
Personally I just go for these cheapo simond ones https://www.decathlon.co.uk/p/climbing-and-mountaineering-quickdraw-rocky-m-11-cm-polished/_/R-p-304930?mc=8524931

They've got a nice fat tape, a notchless nose and are pretty good value. They seem pretty durable in the 5+ years I've had them, though I did manage to kill one when the spring holding the gate came loose (probably related to trying to flick it in to a bolt from below for 5 mins!)

The more expensive ones don't seem worth the upgrade imo. If I was gonna splash some cash I'd get some of these as they should last ~forever https://www.edelrid.de/en/sports/quickdraws/bulletproof-set.html

CrimpyMcCrimpface

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#6 Re: Sport quickdraws
January 13, 2022, 02:27:46 pm
I really rate my Petzl Dijins Axes for sport draws. Always found them very easy to clip when redpoiniting in a panic and I think this is due to the bent back and wide opening. I also have some straight back DMMs, Shadows I think, which are my comparison. The webbing is not as wide as the spirit, so you can't grab them as indiscriminately when dogging routes. But for me the ease of clipping compensates. Clean nose so easy to strip route. Quite a few good deals around from £11.9/draw too.

IanP

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#7 Re: Sport quickdraws
January 13, 2022, 03:12:38 pm
Personally I just go for these cheapo simond ones https://www.decathlon.co.uk/p/climbing-and-mountaineering-quickdraw-rocky-m-11-cm-polished/_/R-p-304930?mc=8524931

They've got a nice fat tape, a notchless nose and are pretty good value. They seem pretty durable in the 5+ years I've had them, though I did manage to kill one when the spring holding the gate came loose (probably related to trying to flick it in to a bolt from below for 5 mins!)

The more expensive ones don't seem worth the upgrade imo. If I was gonna splash some cash I'd get some of these as they should last ~forever https://www.edelrid.de/en/sports/quickdraws/bulletproof-set.html

Mirrors my thoughts, I've ​never  bought expensive draws - for sport climbing fat tape and notchless nose on clipping biner pretty much meets all my requirements.  Also prefer medium length draws for majority of my rack (16-18cm).

Rock and Run have a few options at less than £12 for individual draws and not much more than £10 a draw for multipacks e.g.

https://rockrun.com/collections/quickdraws/products/black-diamond-hotforge-hybrid-quickpack

Andy F

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#8 Re: Sport quickdraws
January 13, 2022, 04:27:08 pm
Another vote for the DMM Shadow. I find them to be a great sport quickdraw. Easy to clip, grab and strip. Slightly more expensive than some but they seem pretty bombproof.

shark

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#9 Re: Sport quickdraws
January 13, 2022, 04:56:38 pm
If I was gonna splash some cash I'd get some of these as they should last ~forever https://www.edelrid.de/en/sports/quickdraws/bulletproof-set.html

That’s bizarre. The steel
insert should be for upper crab as that gets worn far more.

Obviously DMM Alphas - support our lovely sponsor

remus

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#10 Re: Sport quickdraws
January 13, 2022, 05:45:37 pm
If I was gonna splash some cash I'd get some of these as they should last ~forever https://www.edelrid.de/en/sports/quickdraws/bulletproof-set.html

That’s bizarre. The steel insert should be for upper crab as that gets worn far more.

In my experience the upper karabiner gets nicked but I've not known it to affect the usability of the draw, whereas a heavily used draw will get a big (and sharp!) groove worn in the bottom carabiner. If I remember there's been several accidents where these sharp draws have damaged or even cut ropes. More common in places with fixed draws, in particular the lowest draw on the route.

ed. This was the one I was thinking of https://www.ukclimbing.com/news/2012/10/mario_luginbuhl_dead_in_tragic_accident-67521 plus a few more examples here https://nkbv.nl/files/Kenniscentrum/Materiaal/November_2012_NL_Press_Release_xlation_worn_carabiners.pdf

Helge

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#11 Re: Sport quickdraws
January 13, 2022, 06:02:47 pm
The Climbing Technology Lime Set NY Pro draws aren't really different from Petzl Spirits, the rubber fixing works better and they can be found for 10-14 Euro per draw. I'm happy with them.

RobK

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#12 Re: Sport quickdraws
January 13, 2022, 06:18:09 pm
More common in places with fixed draws, in particular the lowest draw on the route.

Along these lines, a tip I picked up about making your draws last longer, is to have some cheaper draws to put in the first bolt and the chains. These generally take more wear than any others and lessen the impact on your 'nice' draws.

Fwiw, alpha fan here.

shark

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#13 Re: Sport quickdraws
January 13, 2022, 08:26:32 pm
In my experience the upper karabiner gets nicked but I've not known it to affect the usability of the draw, whereas a heavily used draw will get a big (and sharp!) groove worn in the bottom carabiner.

The nicks on the top carabiner get big enough for me to discard them before the rope wear on the bottom carabiner does. Traditional bolt hangers are the worst for wearing out krabs.

Duma

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#14 Re: Sport quickdraws
January 13, 2022, 08:32:14 pm
Agree with Simon, also easy to inadvertently get one the wrong way round and ruin a rope. Never seen an issue with wear at the rope end except on perma draws.

Ged

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#15 Re: Sport quickdraws
January 14, 2022, 06:46:53 am
If I was gonna splash some cash I'd get some of these as they should last ~forever https://www.edelrid.de/en/sports/quickdraws/bulletproof-set.html

That’s bizarre. The steel insert should be for upper crab as that gets worn far more.

In my experience the upper karabiner gets nicked but I've not known it to affect the usability of the draw, whereas a heavily used draw will get a big (and sharp!) groove worn in the bottom carabiner. If I remember there's been several accidents where these sharp draws have damaged or even cut ropes. More common in places with fixed draws, in particular the lowest draw on the route.

ed. This was the one I was thinking of https://www.ukclimbing.com/news/2012/10/mario_luginbuhl_dead_in_tragic_accident-67521 plus a few more examples here https://nkbv.nl/files/Kenniscentrum/Materiaal/November_2012_NL_Press_Release_xlation_worn_carabiners.pdf

Smith Rock is covered in fixed draws. I fell off near the top trying to onsight darkness at noon, and heard a weird sound. Looked up to see my rope had been circumcised. About 10 feet of core showing. Lowered off in a hurry. Went back up with my draws and inspected the in situ ones, most clipping biners had a razor edge. I took the sharp ones off and got a right earful from a local, despite me showing him my rope, and the article about the person who died in Switzerland. Didn't trust fixed biners after that.

In summary, definitely steel biner on the rope end!

NaoB

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#16 Re: Sport quickdraws
January 14, 2022, 07:16:35 am
Go for sturdy tapes, not really short or skinny ones. I'd agree with choosing 16-18cm tapes ideally. If you are likely to be using a clipstick, get draws with a ridged biner on the bolt end.

Muenchener

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#17 Re: Sport quickdraws
January 14, 2022, 08:43:56 am
Go for sturdy tapes

This definitely. There are plenty of good carabiners, but Spirit tapes are the best in the business by far for comfy grabbing. My rack is a mix of actual Spirits and Djinns on Spirit tapes.

DMMs are lovely too, but *much* more expensive than Petzl over here in EU-land. And already were before Brexit iirc.

shark

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#18 Re: Sport quickdraws
January 14, 2022, 08:50:56 am
Smith Rock is covered in fixed draws. I fell off near the top trying to onsight darkness at noon, and heard a weird sound. Looked up to see my rope had been circumcised. About 10 feet of core showing. Lowered off in a hurry. Went back up with my draws and inspected the in situ ones, most clipping biners had a razor edge. I took the sharp ones off and got a right earful from a local, despite me showing him my rope, and the article about the person who died in Switzerland. Didn't trust fixed biners after that.

In summary, definitely steel biner on the rope end!

As this is a thread about buying draws for personal use my comments about the steel draws are in relation to my personal use not for fixed draws. My personal experience is the top krab wears out first but maybe that’s because of the way I use them.

As for fixed draws they are a shit idea per se (for a host of reasons covered in another thread)whether steel or otherwise and even if a situ draw had a steel retainer it would only be postponing the inevitable. 
« Last Edit: January 14, 2022, 11:05:56 am by shark »

jwi

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#19 Re: Sport quickdraws
January 14, 2022, 10:54:08 am
I have to throw away my own biners with some regularity when they have become rope-knifes. I never had a top biner getting worn out before a rope end biner. I guess this depends on how much sand there is where you climb, how thin the rope is, and other factors as well.

The old style carabiners, before they were made out of I shaped bars, last forever. I have some Camp biners I bought in 1992 that are still in good nick, but newer biners never last more than a few years for me.

YMMV

I agree that perma draws is the worst idea in sport climbing.

Duncan campbell

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#20 Re: Sport quickdraws
January 14, 2022, 03:55:59 pm


As this is a thread about buying draws for personal use my comments about the steel draws are in relation to my personal use not for fixed draws. My personal experience is the top krab wears out first but maybe that’s because of the way I use them.



what do you think this is in particular? Not enough massive whippers??

Steve R

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#21 Re: Sport quickdraws
January 14, 2022, 04:22:00 pm
I have to throw away my own biners with some regularity when they have become rope-knifes.

Do you find this happens under 'normal' use? Fully get how a biner can become razor sharp when in situ, typically low or off to the side and never/rarely fallen on but struggling to see how they would get sharpened by normal sport climbing use. Worn, yes but sharp? The draw would be getting placed facing both ways and rested/fallen on both sides so would have thought the wear would tend to even out both sides of the gate?

shark

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#22 Re: Sport quickdraws
January 14, 2022, 04:36:54 pm
what do you think this is in particular? Not enough massive whippers??

Funny you should ask as I’ve been thinking about it. When dogging to put draws in I quite often clip directly into a bolt and lever up directly to get height using any draw that was to hand. As Jonas says wear didn’t seem such an issue with older style krabs but my spirits got knackered quite quickly. Think I’ll use an old style krab for those sort of shenanigans from now on.

Duncan Disorderly

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#23 Re: Sport quickdraws
January 14, 2022, 05:00:07 pm
I'm down with the cheap and cheerful brigade...

Got a couple of packs of these in the last year or so for not a lot of cheddar and can't fault them https://rockrun.com/collections/quickdraws/products/black-diamond-hotwire-quickpack

Also re-slung my oooooooold WC hotwires with Petzl tape for absolutely peanuts so now look like a right noob rocking up at the crag with shiny gear an shit  ;)


James Malloch

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#24 Re: Sport quickdraws
January 17, 2022, 10:13:16 am
Many thanks for all of the advice and recommendations. Seems to be a few trends in the responses and I think I’ll go down the DMM route - namely the Phantoms. Seems like they are quite popular, and favoured more than the Alphas in a lot of instances.

Nice to support a UK manufacture too. Will go for their 18cm tapes as they are the most used on my Spirits. I’ve got 5 longer draws too which we can share between us.

Good to hear about the krabs too. I’d happily use my current draws today and think the metalware is fine. So with the newer slings I’ll stick with them. It was only realising how old they were which gave me any doubt at all.

Really appreciate the help!

 

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