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Topic split - gap between onsight and redpoint performance (Read 6835 times)

Bradders

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The point is surely that the data you're gathering is essentially junk for the reasons you've identified. Who knows what a grade a problem inside actually is when its in a range, which themselves bear absolutely no resemblence to outdoor climbing? Grading regimes differ hugely from wall to wall, even more so on lead walls where. Even if you think it does count, I'm sceptical how much use the information actually is. It would be useful if you were using it to solely track indoor performance, but its of limited utility crossing over to outdoor climbing. Just like my ability to tech up 7A grit slabs bears absolutely no relevance to my ability to climb inside.

I don't think I personally can discern anything useful from my climbing inside other than 'I'm going ok on the board' or 'I feel like shit on the board.' This *might* mean I can track my performance based on that feeling alone but board grades are such arrant nonsense that attempting to codify them into a usable performance tracker is pointless for me. I don't see why this would be different for plastic boulders or indoor lead routes.

I think the underlying point, that people might have weird-looking outdoor pyramids backed by significant indoor volume, remains though. The fact that cataloging that indoor volume is hard is kinda beside the point (unless your point is that it's hard to record indoor climbs in a meaningful way, which I don't think anyone is arguing about).

I made my original comment that indoors doesn't count thinking about the fact that climbing is a tactical/mental and skill based sport as much as it is a physical one. Indoor climbing bears so little resemblance to rock climbing in 2/3 of those areas that I think including indoor routes would massively obfuscate things. Stu's experience of being burnt off by Barrows in Greece rings true here. As does seeing so many London based gym-honed climbers completely flailing on grades they'd piss on plastic.

That said you can absolutely track indoor training and I have done in the past. I think Steve Bechtel talks about it in his Logical Progression book; there's even a formula you can use to work out your "session density" and "difficulty ratio", with the inputs being problem difficulty and the number of moves! The idea being that you gradually progress your session density and difficulty and avoid big spikes which would be injurious.

Of course, doing all that quickly gets into the weeds and I really don't think it's helpful at all.

teestub

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Fair dos! I honestly have zero idea what grade stuff on a board actually is, perhaps because I don't have your experience of steep bouldering. I can get a sense of when I'm going well but there are too many variables to know whether its because I'm actually getting better or not I find; my performance is much more up and down on a board than on other styles. Other things I find make a big difference to me on the board are when and what I've eaten that day, frequency of fingerboarding that week, and how I've slept. I don't record my sleep and diet though; maybe thats my missing puzzle piece?!

These factors must also impact your outdoor performance too I would assume? There will always be localised peaks and troughs in training performance, but a training block measured over a few months will show improvements in the areas youíve been training.

On the sleep side, Iíll always remember Stallionís brother Drew telling me that the duration and quality of sleep he had (he did record it) was the best predictor out of anything for his climbing performance.

Bonjoy

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If only we could go back in a time machine to when grades were devised and make them all alphabetic. It's so ridiculous how slavishly people chase the next big round number. Nothing illustrates this better than a V10 being simultaneously a glorious shining prize in the USA/Australia, and the ultimate unloved runt child in Europe at 7C+.

Fultonius

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If only we could go back in a time machine to when grades were devised and make them all alphabetic. It's so ridiculous how slavishly people chase the next big round number. Nothing illustrates this better than a V10 being simultaneously a glorious shining prize in the USA/Australia, and the ultimate unloved runt child in Europe at 7C+.

I take it 30 in route grades is quite a milestone in Aus?

Bonjoy

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Yep. It's also a big thing in Oz being able to climb your age-grade. I spluttered out at 31. Not sure if anyone has made it past 36.

Fiend

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If only we could go back in a time machine to when grades were devised and make them all alphabetic. It's so ridiculous how slavishly people chase the next big round number. Nothing illustrates this better than a V10 being simultaneously a glorious shining prize in the USA/Australia, and the ultimate unloved runt child in Europe at 7C+.
:2thumbsup: perfect. Or abstract symbols. Would go well with the Grinah Stones guide being written entirely in poetry.

abarro81

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On the sleep side, Iíll always remember Stallionís brother Drew telling me that the duration and quality of sleep he had (he did record it) was the best predictor out of anything for his climbing performance.

Not quite the same, but my best gains and performances are - as you'd expect - usually inversely proportional to the volume of work and level of stress at that time and in the preceding few months

mrjonathanr

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If only we could go back in a time machine to when grades were devised and make them all alphabetic. It's so ridiculous how slavishly people chase the next big round number. Nothing illustrates this better than a V10 being simultaneously a glorious shining prize in the USA/Australia, and the ultimate unloved runt child in Europe at 7C+.
:2thumbsup: perfect. Or abstract symbols. Would go well with the Grinah Stones guide being written entirely in poetry.

You could task Johnny with inventing a system graded entirely in far-fetched metaphors, with anything under E5 / 7A+ being in the appproach section of the crag notes.

petejh

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Given the subjective nature of the grading scale I need to see a Bayesian analysis before commenting.

I thought you'd probably say something like this.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2022, 06:50:51 pm by petejh »

petejh

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If only we could go back in a time machine to when grades were devised and make them all alphabetic. It's so ridiculous how slavishly people chase the next big round number. Nothing illustrates this better than a V10 being simultaneously a glorious shining prize in the USA/Australia, and the ultimate unloved runt child in Europe at 7C+.

By happy coincidence there are 25 grades from 5+ to 9c+, leaving one letter spare for 10a., or 'grade Z' as it would be known.

Routes below 5+ would get the Dawes walk-in metaphor.

(edit, fucked that up!)

« Last Edit: January 28, 2022, 07:11:24 pm by petejh »

Fiend

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Given the subjective nature of the grading scale I need to see a Bayesian analysis before commenting.
Wimp!! Surely those graphs capture the true essence of climbing in a way that Golden Hour soloing on Stanage's quiet buttresses never could....


You could task Johnny with inventing a system graded entirely in far-fetched metaphors, with anything under E5 / 7A+ being in the appproach section of the crag notes.
By happy coincidence there are 25 grades from 5+ to 9c+, leaving one letter spare for 10a., or 'grade Z' as it would be known.
Routes below 5+ would get the Dawes walk-in metaphor.
:agree: :goodidea:


P.S. I know it's all a bit, errr, off-topic now, but I was going to reply with "tales from one letter grade down the food chain"....
Me:

OS: F7a
RP: F7b+/c
So 3-4 grades.

(Very, very rarely scrape up a F7a+, in direct correlation to the one F7c+ I've very rarely scraped up).

I think I'm mentally much more suitable to redpointing (good tactics, good beta analysis / refinement, much better with commitment into known "risk" situations) which means there could be more of a gap, but also physically much less suitable  to redpointing (power-to-weight, and power-to-weight, maybe a bit of endurance-to-weight). Which makes it average out at the official 3-4 grades  :whatever:

petejh

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Me:

OS: Grade H
RP: Grade K / L
So 3-4 grades.

(Very, very rarely scrape up a grade I, in direct correlation to the one grade M I've very rarely scraped up).

FTFY

There are some good vert tecky grade L's and M's on LPT that you'd rinse on RP.


Fiend

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 :2thumbsup:

Don't vert and techy řs and Ʒs at LPT involve peeling your skin back on rat crimps that feel like boning down on cheesegrater holes??

Fultonius

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(Very, very rarely scrape up a F7a+, in direct correlation to the one F7c+ I've very rarely scraped up).


Are you personally doing a "Will Hunt" on my one and only 8 graded route? I hazard to say you don't have enough experience at the level, and a lot of people who have done many 7c+/8as and above are happy enough for the grade to stay "as is". I really should put some time into some other 8a - hoping to try Axiom this spring.

andy moles

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:2thumbsup:

Don't vert and techy řs and Ʒs at LPT involve peeling your skin back on rat crimps that feel like boning down on cheesegrater holes??

This accords with my experience of all things vert at LPT. Horrible  :yes:

petejh

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:2thumbsup:

Don't vert and techy řs and Ʒs at LPT involve peeling your skin back on rat crimps that feel like boning down on cheesegrater holes??

Only the good ones.

Fiend

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Are you personally doing a "Will Hunt" on my one and only 8 graded route?
Wash your fucking mouth out!!

Sorry, it wasn't my intention anyway, just my gut feeling, and it's all irrelevant given that the point is "the proportion of routes a step above my typical max level that I've somehow outwitted is similar for both onsight and redpoint". Also irrelevant because no-one really cares less about these milestone grades, of course  :-\

 

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