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Hard North York Moor routes compared to other ‘outcrop’ E10/11’s (Read 7652 times)

shark

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Split from “significant repeats”.

Hope the title reflects the gist of the discussion

Teaboy

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Now this has its own thread maybe we can get a list of those outcrop routes that have genuinely hard climbing free from the miasma of the E grade. A couple that haven’t been mentioned are Captain Invincible at Burbage, Toxic Bilberries at Wilton, Transform and Purgatory at back Bowden

36chambers

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He may be a tech and crimp master.
Without wanting to sound like a dick, he was at K one day this summer and could barely bolt-to-bolt Sticky Wicket or 50-for-5. Obviously he may be v specialist and much better at sandstone.

you never had a bad day at the crag?

abarro81

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I have, obviously. My point was in response to Ed's comment about making things look easy and whether that's just because he's amazing. I would read very little into Toby R or Josh I making something look piss; this kid did not seem to be a Toby or Josh in tech and crimp ability. Of course like I said he may be very disproportionately good on sandstone.

Footwork

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He may be a tech and crimp master.
Without wanting to sound like a dick, he was at K one day this summer and could barely bolt-to-bolt Sticky Wicket or 50-for-5. Obviously he may be v specialist and much better at sandstone.

To be fair to Franco I can't do sticky wicket either

remus

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Now this has its own thread maybe we can get a list of those outcrop routes that have genuinely hard climbing free from the miasma of the E grade. A couple that haven’t been mentioned are Captain Invincible at Burbage, Toxic Bilberries at Wilton, Transform and Purgatory at back Bowden

This would be a fun list I reckon! To pick a few from Franco's post that'd fit the criteria and add a few grades to the ones you suggested:

  • Hard cheese, ~8c
  • Barron greenback, I think Pete said it was around 8b?
  • Nothing Lasts, was it Ned or Dan V who suggested ~8A?
  • Captain Invincible, ~8b
  • Captain Invincible, ~8b
  • Toxic Bilberries
  • Transcendence (I assume you meant this, dont think there's a route called Transform at Bowden), ~7C+ or 8b
  • Purgatory, ~8A+

Will Hunt

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Sticky Wicket is the world's hardest sport climb unless your right arm is vastly overdeveloped for whatever reason.

Will Hunt

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There's a bit of a dilemma with Immortal (finally, a difficult route with a good name). On the one hand it would be good for people to have a rope down it and see what they think; on the other it isn't good to put traffic through fragile crimps if there's not going to be a lead at the end of it.
Are they that fragile, Franco? You must have top roped it a lot before lead. Any crumbling?

teestub

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…terrible gear, sketch moves, suspect rock.

Really selling it for would be repeaters 😂

Franco

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He may be a tech and crimp master.
Without wanting to sound like a dick, he was at K one day this summer and could barely bolt-to-bolt Sticky Wicket or 50-for-5. Obviously he may be v specialist and much better at sandstone.

To be fair to Franco I can't do sticky wicket either

I don't know what this route is, but I'm pretty sure I've never been on it. I'm not amazing at sport climbing,  but would expect to get up a 7b just about (if I've found the correct route you're talking about hahaha).

Franco

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There's a bit of a dilemma with Immortal (finally, a difficult route with a good name). On the one hand it would be good for people to have a rope down it and see what they think; on the other it isn't good to put traffic through fragile crimps if there's not going to be a lead at the end of it.
Are they that fragile, Franco? You must have top roped it a lot before lead. Any crumbling?

So to be clear, I'm being deliberately mean about the route, as I think people generally over egg the quality etc of new lines they climb and I'm comfortable enough with having climbed some really good new routes to try and conservatively appraise the quality of new routes.

The crimps are actually bomber for the amount of weight you put through them. There was no glue or anything put on these. The bit that makes it dangerous is the snappy feet. Your feet are in dishes similar to nesscliffe, but they haven't formed into proper worn dishes like nesscliffe, so things can pop a bit. Above the crux there were holds that actually moved, but I've glued these with the BMC runny glue and they are now okayish for bodyweight.

As a direct finish it is very good and the climbing is top draw. I suppose it's similar quality of line to greatness?

Franco

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Now this has its own thread maybe we can get a list of those outcrop routes that have genuinely hard climbing free from the miasma of the E grade. A couple that haven’t been mentioned are Captain Invincible at Burbage, Toxic Bilberries at Wilton, Transform and Purgatory at back Bowden

This would be a fun list I reckon! To pick a few from Franco's post that'd fit the criteria and add a few grades to the ones you suggested:

  • Hard cheese, ~8c
  • Barron greenback, I think Pete said it was around 8b?
  • Nothing Lasts, was it Ned or Dan V who suggested ~8A?
  • Captain Invincible, ~8b
  • Captain Invincible, ~8b
  • Toxic Bilberries
  • Transcendence (I assume you meant this, dont think there's a route called Transform at Bowden), ~7C+ or 8b
  • Purgatory, ~8A+

No one I've put on Nothing Lasts has thought it 8a. Varian reckoned the crux move was font 7b+ and that's varian...The only person I've seen do the crux on a rope is him actually and I've put a lot of people on it. There's not loads of difference in sport grade between nothing lasts and greatness for example I dont think (although I'm starting to talk rubbish at this point). I think these French grades are all fairly useless, as hardly anyone has been on more than a couple of these routes and some people's 8b+s seem easier than  other people's 8a+s.

abarro81

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8A means Font 8A not French 8a, if that clears up the confusion?

Re Kilnsey I wasn't talking about Franco.

Franco

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Ah right, I doubt varian would have said 8A for Nothing Lasts?

Would love to hear if ned has been on it and thought that. I'd guess slightly easier for the individual moves, but it could be. It's incredibly sketch climbing too.

abarro81

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I should clarify I have no clue what Dan or Ned have said about it.

Entirely feasible for multiple 7B+ sections/moves to add up to 8A though if you grade for the whole route (often a problem on power endurance routes where people say the hardest boulder is for example "7A", but what they really mean is anything from 6C to 7C depending on whether the grades are for single moves or a 20 move sequence). Long 8A = about 8b+ (close enough anyway) which sounds like it might fit with a broad comparison to GreatNess Wall? (Obviously with all the usual caveats about route grades making little sense, boulder grades making even less sense, style being hard to account for etc.)

Adam Lincoln

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Is Franco basing his E11 grade on all those E10's he's repeated around the country... ;)

When you did your new route in Anglesarke Andy, how many routes at that grade all over the country did you base the grade on?

According to your logbook Andy you climbed a couple of E6's in Lancashire when you graded it. Pot? Kettle? Black?

Not sure if you missed this Andy?

Wood FT

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Is Franco basing his E11 grade on all those E10's he's repeated around the country... ;)

When you did your new route in Anglesarke Andy, how many routes at that grade all over the country did you base the grade on?

According to your logbook Andy you climbed a couple of E6's in Lancashire when you graded it. Pot? Kettle? Black?

Not sure if you missed this Andy?

You made your point, Adam.

Ed booth

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“Anyway... This doesn't have to be very mysterious for those of you wondering- it's about 45 mins from the A1 next time you're heading north”
Franco, I’m keen to come and look at stuff up your way . Problem now is there are too many to check out. And most of them look to necky. Fall theory (which I thought amazing) highlighted how bouncy you are for decking out

Andy F

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Is Franco basing his E11 grade on all those E10's he's repeated around the country... ;)

When you did your new route in Anglesarke Andy, how many routes at that grade all over the country did you base the grade on?

According to your logbook Andy you climbed a couple of E6's in Lancashire when you graded it. Pot? Kettle? Black?

Not sure if you missed this Andy?

I based it on routes I'd tried in the local area, some I'd done, some I hadn't. Plus routes in other areas, plus comparing the difficulty to sport climbs in Yorkshire/Peak to get an approximation for the grade. Also having others try it before I did it gave me a clue as to the grade. You know, as wide a spectrum of opinion to get the most accurate grades, based on local and further afield grades.

In other words, the same way most people come up with a grade

Adam Lincoln

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Is Franco basing his E11 grade on all those E10's he's repeated around the country... ;)

When you did your new route in Anglesarke Andy, how many routes at that grade all over the country did you base the grade on?

According to your logbook Andy you climbed a couple of E6's in Lancashire when you graded it. Pot? Kettle? Black?

Not sure if you missed this Andy?

I based it on routes I'd tried in the local area, some I'd done, some I hadn't. Plus routes in other areas, plus comparing the difficulty to sport climbs in Yorkshire/Peak to get an approximation for the grade. Also having others try it before I did it gave me a clue as to the grade. You know, as wide a spectrum of opinion to get the most accurate grades, based on local and further afield grades.

In other words, the same way most people come up with a grade

Just like Franco then apart from he didnt have lots of people trying his routes.

Give the lad a rest….

Andy F

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Is Franco basing his E11 grade on all those E10's he's repeated around the country... ;)

When you did your new route in Anglesarke Andy, how many routes at that grade all over the country did you base the grade on?

According to your logbook Andy you climbed a couple of E6's in Lancashire when you graded it. Pot? Kettle? Black?

Not sure if you missed this Andy?

I based it on routes I'd tried in the local area, some I'd done, some I hadn't. Plus routes in other areas, plus comparing the difficulty to sport climbs in Yorkshire/Peak to get an approximation for the grade. Also having others try it before I did it gave me a clue as to the grade. You know, as wide a spectrum of opinion to get the most accurate grades, based on local and further afield grades.

In other words, the same way most people come up with a grade

Just like Franco then apart from he didnt have lots of people trying his routes.

Give the lad a rest….
Apart from all the sport experience and actually doing things more than 30 miles from where I live put up by other people, yes identical

And you're the one dragging it out Adam. Give it a break, it's boring.

Adam Lincoln

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Is Franco basing his E11 grade on all those E10's he's repeated around the country... ;)

When you did your new route in Anglesarke Andy, how many routes at that grade all over the country did you base the grade on?

According to your logbook Andy you climbed a couple of E6's in Lancashire when you graded it. Pot? Kettle? Black?

Not sure if you missed this Andy?

I based it on routes I'd tried in the local area, some I'd done, some I hadn't. Plus routes in other areas, plus comparing the difficulty to sport climbs in Yorkshire/Peak to get an approximation for the grade. Also having others try it before I did it gave me a clue as to the grade. You know, as wide a spectrum of opinion to get the most accurate grades, based on local and further afield grades.

In other words, the same way most people come up with a grade

Just like Franco then apart from he didnt have lots of people trying his routes.

Give the lad a rest….
Apart from all the sport experience and actually doing things more than 30 miles from where I live put up by other people, yes identical

And you're the one dragging it out Adam. Give it a break, it's boring.

Yeah you’re boring me now as well. You’ve had this bone with him for years. Maybe concentrate on your own life instead.

ferret

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Franco, thanks for being willing to enter the discussion, means more than discussing what routes you haven't climbed IMO.
You seem to have a lot of pads in insta photos (no criticism). Can you give us a breakdown of difficulty and when and where you can't fall. I.e. font X to hooks could fall/jump safely for X amount of this section then font X to the top (presumably with very dangerous fall).
What do you think about equilibrium as somewhat similar. Font 7c+ with a nasty fall in to the arete at the top of that section followed by an easier but thin and technical section with a bad ground fall?

webbo

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Is Franco basing his E11 grade on all those E10's he's repeated around the country... ;)

When you did your new route in Anglesarke Andy, how many routes at that grade all over the country did you base the grade on?

According to your logbook Andy you climbed a couple of E6's in Lancashire when you graded it. Pot? Kettle? Black?

Not sure if you missed this Andy?

I based it on routes I'd tried in the local area, some I'd done, some I hadn't. Plus routes in other areas, plus comparing the difficulty to sport climbs in Yorkshire/Peak to get an approximation for the grade. Also having others try it before I did it gave me a clue as to the grade. You know, as wide a spectrum of opinion to get the most accurate grades, based on local and further afield grades.

In other words, the same way most people come up with a grade

Just like Franco then apart from he didnt have lots of people trying his routes.

Give the lad a rest….
Apart from all the sport experience and actually doing things more than 30 miles from where I live put up by other people, yes identical

And you're the one dragging it out Adam. Give it a break, it's boring.

Yeah you’re boring me now as well. You’ve had this bone with him for years. Maybe concentrate on your own life instead.
I’m wondering who really has issues here.

Franco

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The fall is pretty bad off any of it. You start off a ledge on the right and do a no hands traverse along a rail. This is British 6cish (if you can grade no hands stuff) and really cool (the start to Sky burial). Michaela described the original sky burial as two amazing (and not the difficult) comp boulder problems with a no hands rest inbetween. Shame the block fell of the top crux. This start bit is highball height, but you'd take a minging bashy fall if you fell off. You then get to a very good rest at the junction with the new section of climbing.

The next 9 hand movements are almost all of the challenge of the route. If you fall off here you're screwed. The hooks are close by, but having pulled much better hooks, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't hold. I'm struggling to think of a peak equivalent to the fall, but maybe something like falling off the top of end of the affair with no gear? Or from the top crux of knocking on heavens door? I can't really picture those landings perfectly, but it's definitely really bad news. The mats are there as the ground is interspersed with rocks and I hoped they'd bounce me out, rather than limbs getting caught in the brambles, mud and rocks. Me and Tom have wondered about whether you could survive a fall, but falling is our core skill. If one of these people who was actually good at climbing fell off that, with all their muscles stopping their limbs rotating properly, I'd be amazed if they weren't in hospital with multiple broken bones or dead. There is also a subsidiary cliff below this one (that's why I had a 3rd rope with Tom jumping off the ledge). I reckoned I could probably stop before this, but if you didnt, that's another 20m drop. Death gets talked about a lot in climbing, which again is usually hyperbole, but I can't think of many things with a worse fall. 

I don't know the breakdown of that crux section. I probably havent done a boulder problem in a few years. I've done some stuff in the county like Antihydral and some of the other high font 7s on tiny crimps and it's harder than them, but they're kind of easy if you have good skin... I suppose some of the best stuff for me to use as benchmarks are the routes that I've linked on top rope. It's defo harder climbing than anything I've been on on peak grit for example (except maybe the groove, which I failed on, but then it was really hot...)

I've never been on equilibrium,  but I watched someone top rope it the other week. From a rope work perspective, it looked eminently safe for a ground up, if you slung that bottom boulder and had a running belay. Can't comment on the climbing like. Sounds hard.

Sorry. None of that is very useful. I had intended on repeating some routes before now, as i have a few dialled, but the weather didnt play ball. Hopefully Steve will go for another look. That's what we really need!

 

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