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Hard North York Moor routes compared to other ‘outcrop’ E10/11’s (Read 7641 times)

edshakey

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3 days after Franco's post/grading of Immortal E11, it looks to have been repeated. Logged on UKC, would guess Tom Pearce? Anyone know?

Unless Steve Mac has finally come round to his promise of getting over to the Moors soon, and started logging on UKC!

Adam Lincoln

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Its probably a phantom logger as it says it was done today. Its 09.48 so would have been an early start and doubt connies were good that early.

edshakey

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I did think that, but given it's by a private logger, it seemed plausible. Didn't notice the date though, certainly doubt it was done this morning, and logged immediately!

Shame :(

teestub

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Must have missed the write up of this. Franco given up on H grades then?

edshakey

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Must have missed the write up of this. Franco given up on H grades then?

Seems so, at least for this one.

https://www.planetmountain.com/en/news/climbing/franco-cookson-immortal-maidens-bluff-uk.html

Here's an article, not on insta but I'm guessing most of the article comes from a post on there.

Adam Lincoln

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I did think that, but given it's by a private logger, it seemed plausible. Didn't notice the date though, certainly doubt it was done this morning, and logged immediately!

Shame :(

Deleted now surprise surprise!

Andy F

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Is Franco basing his E11 grade on all those E10's he's repeated around the country... ;)

Bradders

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Not saying you're wrong about your implication there Andy, but to flip it round surely all the stuff Franco has done in the North York Moors also needs to get some attention from the wealth of people who'd surely be capable?

Only way we'll find out for sure whether these things are accurate is if others go and repeat them.

Adam Lincoln

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Is Franco basing his E11 grade on all those E10's he's repeated around the country... ;)

Don't start on all that again Andy. It comes across as bitter and very boring.


edshakey

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I did think that, but given it's by a private logger, it seemed plausible. Didn't notice the date though, certainly doubt it was done this morning, and logged immediately!

Shame :(

Deleted now surprise surprise!

 :'(

Will Hunt

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Not saying you're wrong about your implication there Andy, but to flip it round surely all the stuff Franco has done in the North York Moors also needs to get some attention from the wealth of people who'd surely be capable?

Only way we'll find out for sure whether these things are accurate is if others go and repeat them.

Some of his stuff has had attention. Tom Randall thought Myxomop was the real deal and didn't repeat; Dan Varian has decked off Nothing Lasts and hasn't been back (I believe. Happy to be corrected).

Andy F

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I'm not saying Franco hasn't climbed many hard things on the Moors, he clearly has. Those that have had repeats have all kept the grades, haven't they?
He's clearly a talented lad, exceptionally bold and capable of pulling hard moves in very insecure situations, very praiseworthy.

Adam Lincoln

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Not saying you're wrong about your implication there Andy, but to flip it round surely all the stuff Franco has done in the North York Moors also needs to get some attention from the wealth of people who'd surely be capable?

Only way we'll find out for sure whether these things are accurate is if others go and repeat them.

Some of his stuff has had attention. Tom Randall thought Myxomop was the real deal and didn't repeat; Dan Varian has decked off Nothing Lasts and hasn't been back (I believe. Happy to be corrected).

Thats what I have heard also Will. Good enough for me. Andy just has a long running disbelief of the grades of Franco's stuff which get very old and boring years later.

Adam Lincoln

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Is Franco basing his E11 grade on all those E10's he's repeated around the country... ;)

When you did your new route in Anglesarke Andy, how many routes at that grade all over the country did you base the grade on?

According to your logbook Andy you climbed a couple of E6's in Lancashire when you graded it. Pot? Kettle? Black?

teestub

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https://www.planetmountain.com/en/news/climbing/franco-cookson-immortal-maidens-bluff-uk.html

Here's an article, not on insta but I'm guessing most of the article comes from a post on there.

Quote
According to Cookson, the result is a line that is "as physically hard as any of the safe outcrop E10 Trad routes in the UK, but with obvious far bigger consequences if you fail." 

Must have also missed Franco’s trip to Pembrokeshire to repeat Choronzon, etc too!

Ged

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I couldn't give a toss either way, and I may be wrong, but I always take "outcrop routes" to mean stuff on sandstone and gritsone crags. So for that, I guess read shorter lived difficulties, but often tenuous and bolder, rather than long, hard and sustained as on big sea cliffs and mountain crags.

So I guess the question is,what are all of the safe outcrop e10's in the country, and which ones is Franco basing his grade against? Off the top of my head, equilibrium, parthian without the flake, hard cheese,

Steve R

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Tom Randall thought Myxomop was the real deal and didn't repeat

Not sure that interpretation is quite right...  I think Randall had tried it a bit before Franco did it.  Franco then did it very quickly I think.  Doubt Randall ever went back to try and repeat it.  The rock quality isn't that great on this but it's solid where it matters.  I've worked it a bit and I'd say it breaks down as a highball 7C to a decent hold then into a very highball 7A.  The landing is good but it is pretty high and the nature of the moves mean you could fall off unexpectedly and therefore out of control.  It's good, keen for another look in Spring.

teestub

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I couldn't give a toss either way, and I may be wrong, but I always take "outcrop routes" to mean stuff on sandstone and gritsone crags. So for that, I guess read shorter lived difficulties, but often tenuous and bolder, rather than long, hard and sustained as on big sea cliffs and mountain crags.

So I guess the question is,what are all of the safe outcrop e10's in the country, and which ones is Franco basing his grade against? Off the top of my head, equilibrium, parthian without the flake, hard cheese,

OK so nothing on volcanic or metamorphic rock, or nothing next to the sea? I always read outcrop as ‘not multipitch’ but wft would I know about trad climbing, I’m a boulderer 😄


Equilibrium is deffo not safe, Blind Vision at Froggatt starts with an 8A+ boulder, not sure how safe The Groove is, but looks tricky.

Ged

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Like I say, I might be wrong. Certainly refers to stuff on the shorter side. I'm sure theres plenty in lakes and Wales that would qualify as an outcrop route, but I wouldn't include stuff like chorozon. Such a different style.

I was being tongue in cheek when I referred to equilibrium etc as being safe, I'm very intrigued to know what they are!

colin8ll

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Quote
So I guess the question is,what are all of the safe outcrop e10's in the country

Robbie Phillips' new route What We Do In The Shadows would count as a safe E10 outcrop climb. However it was probably climbed after Franco climbed and graded his route so it's unlikely he was influenced by it.

Ged

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Hold fast? Dave Macs other e10's? I'm actually struggling to think of many more. Out of curiosity, does anyone know which ones Franco is comparing to?

andy popp

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Greatness Wall is E10 and, I suppose, "safe" after a fashion.

Ed booth

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I know Franco has tried Greatness Wall a few times but Immortal doesn’t look like as hard moves . On GW the crux is probs thin vert font 8a.
Hard to compare though because It’s difficult to judge the difficulty of the immortal crux , but it looks more positive crimps but a weird insecure sequence that looks necky for a solo.
Also , there is footage of Tom Pearce doing the immortal crux sequence on his Insta and he makes it look pretty steady. Again, not that that is anything really to go by. He may be a tech and crimp master.

Franco

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Hello,

I don't really want to compare Immortal overall to any individual established hard lines, as I've not done any of them and that would be bad crack. I think we can compare the climbing on them though.

As a general list of outcrop (I.e. not mountain or sea cliff) routes in the UK where the climbing is physically hard:

Die by the Drop (didn't get through the hard move)
Hold Fast, Hold True
Nothing Lasts
Sign of the Devil
Lexicon (suppose that's mountain, but doesnt feel that mountainy)
Hard cheese (not tried this)
Barron greenback (not tried this)
Gerty berwick  (didn't get to the hard move)
Widdop wall (not tried this)
Dynamics of change
Doctor Doolittle
Sleepy hollow

Obviously some of those are slightly easier or harder graded than E10, but my basic point was that I kinda know what none super dangerous E10 feels like, now I've probably been on as many as anyone else. Generally I can lob a rope down them and figure out the climbing in a couple of sessions. I do need to pull my finger out and actually climb some of them, as I appreciate my grading is kinda house of cards stuff, and that's a priority this year.

It is for this reason that I've been hounding everyone I know to come and have a look at Immortal since April, as I really don't know how hard the crux is and if we figured that out, the Trad grade would be easyish to extrapolate. It's pretty much as bold as you can get on an outcrop cliff - terrible gear, sketch moves, suspect rock. It's the kind of thing that would be E7 if it was tech 6a. ​But, in the end it was getting towards the end of the year and it felt stupid to have not graded it. 

The climbing compares most to greatness or sleepy hollow I suppose, with all 3 being vertish sandstonish and quite standout hard for a trad route, but that's what I wanted a second opinion on.

It's kind of disappointing people don't seem keen to come and look at stuff unless they think it's going to be an easy tick. I've heard loads of rumours about people having gone to have a look at Nothing Lasts, but then they don't publicly say anything, which is sad for the development of consensi.

Re the video: I chatted to Tom recently about Immortal and I think I'm right in saying he's still to fully do the hard moves on Immortal without help from the rope. I think the video he uploaded was to show it was possible for a short person to reach between the holds. I'm sure he will do it eventually like, he's talented and very determined (and still only 16!). I agree it looks easy in that video.

Anyway... This doesn't have to be very mysterious for those of you wondering- it's about 45 mins from the A1 next time you're heading north and has a 5 min flat walk in. Stake at the top. It's really not the logistical challenge of Nothing Lasts. If you like crimping, I'm sure many of you could at least have a guess at a boulder grade, even if you're not psyched for the lead. The maths of it is probably pretty simple- f7B ~E10, f7C ~ E11 , f8A ~ E12 , f8B ~ E13. Unless the hooks turn out to be okay, or rip entirely.
 
Oh, and the guy posting on the climbing wall thread wants to get a desiccant dehumidifier (assuming his garage is fairly air tight). Get a good one and they're amazing.

Edit to say: MYXOMOP (pronounced muck-a-moor [sorry about that route name]) is really not hard in the grand scheme of things. I find it curious that people continue to mention this route in the context of justifying E11s - I graded it H8. It is a lovely feature I suppose. Crazy that no ones repeated it. Howay Steve!
« Last Edit: December 28, 2021, 11:09:00 am by Franco »

abarro81

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He may be a tech and crimp master.
Without wanting to sound like a dick, he was at K one day this summer and could barely bolt-to-bolt Sticky Wicket or 50-for-5. Obviously he may be v specialist and much better at sandstone.

 

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