[Dingdong]

Plan is to write up and update as much stuff that’s been done, give boulders name and a grade but no FA information. Keep it an open forum so if people want to rename their FAs they can step up and request it.

[stone]

I think I walked past them years ago but I've never bouldered there. I don't personally care about them being kept relatively inaccessible. I'm just saying that I can see where people who want that are coming from. I guess it is a bit like how I don't like  dogs nor off-road motorbikes but I want people who do like those to be accommodated to a fair extent.

[Bradders]

Sure this point was made before, but it already is documented.

As in, the venue's existence, where it is, how to get to it, what it's like, etc. are all thoroughly detailed in the BMC RAD and on UKC:

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/modules/rad/view.aspx?id=3163

Whilst it also features with a similar write up in the Over the Moors guidebook.

So to address the "gatekeeping" accusation, the venue is both as well publicised (in non-social media channels) as any other and, once they're aware of it if people want to go there, there is absolutely nothing stopping them. In fact, you have loads of information to go on to get you there. There are even now a few tantalising social media posts, but the less of those the better.

But for some reason people still don't go very much. Obviously a big part of that is the location, but the other problem then is surely one of ego. As in, people don't want to go without knowing there is problem X at grade Y on which they can demonstrate their climbing prowess. And I think the exclusion of that approach is worth preserving, if only at this one place. Especially when you consider that by all accounts, it's a big venue with something for literally all abilities.

Carlos - I remember previous discussions on here under your old username where you were encouraged to consider your approach to sharing on social media, and to putting up FAs. I note you've now deleted your Instagram account, and recently said you're happier without it. Perhaps, before you unilaterally decide to trample over years of established tradition against the wishes of a large slice of the community, you could consider whether the same thought process might be applied here.

this thread felt super gatekeepy and to be honest there’s nothing stoping a group of us saying fuck that and documenting it anyways.

So what you mean by "this should be revisited" is really, "I think you're all wrong and I'm going to do it anyway because I'm right, you're wrong and there's nothing you can do about it".

And honestly, if that's your attitude I think you're worse and more selfish than any gatekeeper.

[Dingdong]

Sure this point was made before, but it already is documented.

As in, the venue's existence, where it is, how to get to it, what it's like, etc. are all thoroughly detailed in the BMC RAD and on UKC:

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/modules/rad/view.aspx?id=3163

Whilst it also features with a similar write up in the Over the Moors guidebook.

So to address the "gatekeeping" accusation, the venue is both as well publicised (in non-social media channels) as any other and, once they're aware of it if people want to go there, there is absolutely nothing stopping them. In fact, you have loads of information to go on to get you there. There are even now a few tantalising social media posts, but the less of those the better.

But for some reason people still don't go very much. Obviously a big part of that is the location, but the other problem then is surely one of ego. As in, people don't want to go without knowing there is problem X at grade Y on which they can demonstrate their climbing prowess. And I think the exclusion of that approach is worth preserving, if only at this one place. Especially when you consider that by all accounts, it's a big venue with something for literally all abilities.

Carlos - I remember previous discussions on here under your old username where you were encouraged to consider your approach to sharing on social media, and to putting up FAs. I note you've now deleted your Instagram account, and recently said you're happier without it. Perhaps, before you unilaterally decide to trample over years of established tradition against the wishes of a large slice of the community, you could consider whether the same thought process might be applied here.

this thread felt super gatekeepy and to be honest there’s nothing stoping a group of us saying fuck that and documenting it anyways.

So what you mean by "this should be revisited" is really, "I think you're all wrong and I'm going to do it anyway because I'm right, you're wrong and there's nothing you can do about it".

And honestly, if that's your attitude I think you're worse and more selfish than any gatekeeper.

A large slice of the community being 30 people? 

I just think it’s outdated, we’ll never agree and that’s fine too Nick. But in my opinion it should be documented, and I know a lot of other people also agree!

Also not sure why you’re bringing up my past when it has no bearing on this. I’m not looking to share anything on social media, I just want people to have access to information regarding what’s there? Thanks for the dig though!

[Stabbsy]

whilst I fully respect your opinion remus I sadly don’t agree with it. We lose nothing and gain quite a bit by documenting this incredible crag, and as has been voted by members on this thread it seems a majority would prefer some kind of documentation.

Couple of assumptions in the above that I don't agree with. First, you're assuming that all the people who voted for partial documentation agree with your proposed version of partial documentation - we've already seen what having a referendum without properly defining the end points can lead to. Second, you're assuming that this forum is representative of the wider climbing community - why do we get to decide?

If it does end up being documented, then I'm with Droyd on resurrecting the B grade (the John Gill version, not the ill-fated Peak Bouldering Rockfax one).

[Dingdong]

Could just go with easy, medium, hard, very hard?

[stone]

There seems to me a lot of contradiction in how people welcomed the "best of 2023" thread on here and yet want to stamp out "insta green tick bollox" etc.

Due to some bizarre IT screw up on my part I can't view instagram. But isn't it just publicly enthusing and sharing about climbing etc just as with the "best of 2023" thread on here? Perhaps it is engineered to be more addictive and some people feel they are best rid of it because of that. That makes sense but I think it for everyone to make their own minds up about how or if they use it.

All communication about climbing causes people to visit new places and climb differently from how they otherwise would have done. It just makes them aware of new possibilities. They are still free to stick with their old ways and places if they so choose.

[northern yob]

Fuck, sometimes I despair…. Yes I’m old yes I’m miserable and yes I’m most definitely a dinosaur. I’m not even going to bother justifying my position, other people have done that further up thread. I’ve never even been, but places and experiences like it should be preserved imho, genuinely why do people feel the need to document everything.??

[remus]

Could just go with easy, medium, hard, very hard?

Might want to add ''very hard severe' on the end if we need a bit more room, then if that doesn't give enough separation we could add 'Extreme', and in the unlikely event that doesn't work we could break that down further in to Extreme 1, Extreme 2, etc.

[Bradders]

A large slice of the community being 30 people? 

I just think it’s outdated, we’ll never agree and that’s fine too Nick. But in my opinion it should be documented, and I know a lot of other people also agree!

Just because you don't agree doesn't give you the right to go ahead and do it anyway. Can you not see how that's really shit for everyone who holds a different perspective?

Also not sure why you’re bringing up my past when it has no bearing on this. I’m not looking to share anything on social media, I just want people to have access to information regarding what’s there? Thanks for the dig though!

I think it's highly relevant. In both cases, you're approaching an aspect of climbing in a certain way and others are thoughtfully suggesting that there is a better, more fulfilling, more satisfying way of doing it.

Could just go with easy, medium, hard, very hard?

As I said before, the venue is already thoroughly documented in terms of access, location, getting there, etc. Surely then on arrival any climber with half a brain and a little experience will be able to tell for themselves what will be easy, medium, hard or very hard. So why have it written down? It serves literally no purpose.

[Dingdong]

Fuck, sometimes I despair…. Yes I’m old yes I’m miserable and yes I’m most definitely a dinosaur. I’m not even going to bother justifying my position, other people have done that further up thread. I’ve never even been, but places and experiences like it should be preserved imho, genuinely why do people feel the need to document everything.??

Grinah is already extensively documented including names of all the boulders and areas of the crag, unfinished projects with their perceived difficulty, it’s just not public?

[spidermonkey09]

Just because you don't agree doesn't give you the right to go ahead and do it anyway. Can you not see how that's really shit for everyone who holds a different perspective?

I don't care either way and this is already shaping up to be an elite thread, but the obvious retort to this is who gave the original instigators of the policy the 'right' to insist on it being undocumented? Surely that policy is shit for people who hold a different perspective?

[Dingdong]

A large slice of the community being 30 people? 

I just think it’s outdated, we’ll never agree and that’s fine too Nick. But in my opinion it should be documented, and I know a lot of other people also agree!

Just because you don't agree doesn't give you the right to go ahead and do it anyway. Can you not see how that's really shit for everyone who holds a different perspective?

Also not sure why you’re bringing up my past when it has no bearing on this. I’m not looking to share anything on social media, I just want people to have access to information regarding what’s there? Thanks for the dig though!

I think it's highly relevant. In both cases, you're approaching an aspect of climbing in a certain way and others are thoughtfully suggesting that there is a better, more fulfilling, more satisfying way of doing it.

Could just go with easy, medium, hard, very hard?

As I said before, the venue is already thoroughly documented in terms of access, location, getting there, etc. Surely then on arrival any climber with half a brain and a little experience will be able to tell for themselves what will be easy, medium, hard or very hard. So why have it written down? It serves literally no purpose.

This is you basically saying your approach is right and mine isn’t though, how is that any different? We just hold opposing perspectives but it doesn’t mean either is right or wrong?

This isn’t like discussions around retro bolting trad, or doing things in a weird style, this is a more metaphysical discussion surrounding ethics of documenting which if like you say, grinah is already very well documented and like I said, the boulders themselves are well documented, then is really a moot point other than keeping that information as obscure as possible.

[User deactivated.]

I suspect the main appeal to Grinnah is turning up and just climbing what looks good with no knowledge of how hard it is. So if it's to be written up, I think grading or even having easy, medium, hard descriptions is unnecessary. The guide should simply be a source of inspiration for people to make the trip up, showing lots of nice inspiring photos of the boulders and people climbing on them, descriptions of where the lines go and any essential info. I don't think naming them is an issue (i'd probably favour vague names as proposed by SM but I have no strong feelings on this) but it seems critical that describing the difficulty should be avoided.

Personally, I can't be arsed to go up there at the moment as there's a million cool things I want to climb already, but if I saw a photo of someone climbing an amazing highball arete, i'd be much more tempted and part of the excitement would be finding out whether it's 6A or 9A by trying it.

[Bradders]

Just because you don't agree doesn't give you the right to go ahead and do it anyway. Can you not see how that's really shit for everyone who holds a different perspective?

I don't care either way and this is already shaping up to be an elite thread, but the obvious retort to this is who gave the original instigators of the policy the 'right' to insist on it being undocumented? Surely that policy is shit for people who hold a different perspective?

I suspect the difference there is it won't have been any one person, it'll have built over a period of time where someone went, didn't write anything up. Then someone else went and did the same. And so it goes, building over time with each new visitor until it becomes the norm. Because each of those visitors discovered and recognised the incredible unique value in having just one place like it.

[northern yob]

A large slice of the community being 30 people? 

I just think it’s outdated, we’ll never agree and that’s fine too Nick. But in my opinion it should be documented, and I know a lot of other people also agree!

Just because you don't agree doesn't give you the right to go ahead and do it anyway. Can you not see how that's really shit for everyone who holds a different perspective?

Also not sure why you’re bringing up my past when it has no bearing on this. I’m not looking to share anything on social media, I just want people to have access to information regarding what’s there? Thanks for the dig though!

I think it's highly relevant. In both cases, you're approaching an aspect of climbing in a certain way and others are thoughtfully suggesting that there is a better, more fulfilling, more satisfying way of doing it.

Could just go with easy, medium, hard, very hard?

As I said before, the venue is already thoroughly documented in terms of access, location, getting there, etc. Surely then on arrival any climber with half a brain and a little experience will be able to tell for themselves what will be easy, medium, hard or very hard. So why have it written down? It serves literally no purpose.

This is you basically saying your approach is right and mine isn’t though, how is that any different? We just hold opposing perspectives but it doesn’t mean either is right or wrong?

This isn’t like discussions around retro bolting trad, or doing things in a weird style, this is a more metaphysical discussion surrounding ethics of documenting which if like you say, grinah is already very well documented and like I said, the boulders themselves are well documented, then is really a moot point other than keeping that information as obscure as possible.

Because keeping it obscure preserves a little bit of something some people find special, it preserves an experience some people like, and it’s one of the few extensive, good places where this is the case. It’s a finite resource and it can be really rewarding, I suspect the reason varian isn’t releasing topo after topo of whatever he’s been upto in the kielder area for the last few years is to preserve his special experience’s for other people to enjoy. Can’t some places be left as they are? If it’s all collated in one place it will end up in a guidebook…. Could rockfax resist? For me and many others that would be a bit sad. Does literally everything have to be easy? There are no gatekeepers if you wanna find it all out it’s there, it just takes a bit of finding. Does it have to be at the top of a Google search??

[Bradders]

This is you basically saying your approach is right and mine isn’t though, how is that any different? We just hold opposing perspectives but it doesn’t mean either is right or wrong?

I wouldn't have chosen not to document it if I'd been the first to go up there. That isn't my approach. But given others have established it here, and as I say that's been a developed consensus over a long period of time, all I'm saying is once you unilaterally let the genie out of the bottle, you can't put it back in, so you should think very carefully about what will actually be gained by further documentation, and crucially what will be lost.

And if all you're gaining is a load of things getting named, retro-claimed and renamed, I think it's a pretty poor return.

[T_B]

I suspect the main appeal to Grinnah is turning up and just climbing what looks good with no knowledge of how hard it is.

This is the argument but why not extend this to every crag?

People really need to go to Grinah and they might find they take a different view. It’s not an edge or a nicely laid out boulder field. It’s a right old jumble. Maybe it appeals if you’ve got a big team and a full day for a once in a decade visit, but if a couple of you head up there it’s actually quite difficult to identify the best things to climb on.

[Droyd]

There seems to me a lot of contradiction in how people welcomed the "best of 2023" thread on here and yet want to stamp out "insta green tick bollox" etc.

To my mind the difference between the UKB 'best of year' threads and Instagram is that the former rewards depth and nuance and honesty, and the latter surface-level engagement and big numbers. This is because the UKB posts that 'do well' (the ones that I enjoy reading and others do too, based on replies and so on) are the ones that present not just 'achievements' but the context around them, whereas the way Instagram is set up actively discourages the inclusion of text with posts and makes follow-up discussion quite confusing (comment threads don't seem to work very well, character limits prevent in-depth discussion). This leads to the 'Problem name + grade + green-tick emoji' formula being dominant, which means less depth and nuance and honesty and more mindless consumption. In my mind there's a clear link between this commodification of problems and poor behaviour such as climbing on wet rock and not paying attention to access issues, all of which has a negative impact on climbing (and would completely ruin what people see as being special about Grinah).

However obviously I would think all of this because what I do is right and good and what other people do is bad and terrible. I think it's an interesting discussion to have as I'm sure I'm being a massive hypocrite in many ways, but this probably isn't the thread for it.

[User deactivated.]

If any of your mates put a green tick on Insta just comment the following: "Green tick wanker. Embarrassing". I've managed to stop a few of my mates from doing it so far 

[Andy B]

What Bradders said.

[Dingdong]

This is you basically saying your approach is right and mine isn’t though, how is that any different? We just hold opposing perspectives but it doesn’t mean either is right or wrong?

I wouldn't have chosen not to document it if I'd been the first to go up there. That isn't my approach. But given others have established it here, and as I say that's been a developed consensus over a long period of time, all I'm saying is once you unilaterally let the genie out of the bottle, you can't put it back in, so you should think very carefully about what will actually be gained by further documentation, and crucially what will be lost.

And if all you're gaining is a load of things getting named, retro-claimed and renamed, I think it's a pretty poor return.

Really weird take, just because something is tradition doesn’t mean it’s correct or worth upholding. Sometimes the opposite is needed, again these are all personal ethical standpoints.

[Aussiegav]

Completely off topic.
But. It’s a great start 2024 where a massive thread is about bouldering / climbing on a climbing forum. 

Hope 2024 stays this way.
Less of the divisive non climbing threads please. 

[Bradders]

This is you basically saying your approach is right and mine isn’t though, how is that any different? We just hold opposing perspectives but it doesn’t mean either is right or wrong?

I wouldn't have chosen not to document it if I'd been the first to go up there. That isn't my approach. But given others have established it here, and as I say that's been a developed consensus over a long period of time, all I'm saying is once you unilaterally let the genie out of the bottle, you can't put it back in, so you should think very carefully about what will actually be gained by further documentation, and crucially what will be lost.

And if all you're gaining is a load of things getting named, retro-claimed and renamed, I think it's a pretty poor return.

Really weird take, just because something is tradition doesn’t mean it’s correct or worth upholding. Sometimes the opposite is needed, again these are all personal ethical standpoints.

Read my post again, that's not what I said.

I didn't say just because it's tradition it should remain as is. I said given the tradition is now firmly established, you need to carefully consider what is being gained and what is being lost by breaking it.

And, again, the loss here is very significant in my and clearly many others view.

[Will Hunt]

Here's my hypothesis.

There's a lot of very cool climbing up there. Objectively good shit. Highball aretes on moorland's finest scrittle. People love to go and climb there because it's like Barden Fell, the gold standard of quality rock climbing.

But the crag has a dark and terrible secret. You all know what it is but you dare not speak it, you dare not utter it. You cast your eyes down and shift your weight from foot to foot. A secret unspoken can be ignored, it can be disbelieved, so let it remain unsaid.

Let me now, once and for all, unleash this eldritch horror shrieking upon the quailing masses of Sheffield. Let my words bring a new terror to The Works and the Broadfield and the School Room; hear me now, Peakies, and despair!







The climbs are easy.

Yes, that's right. Almost all of the climbing at Grinah Stones is between Font 4 and Font 6C+.

Now, with this dreadful knowledge weighing leaden in your breast, which of you will walk the two hours of unpathed moor to climb there? That's right, none of you. Because who ever looked through a guidebook and went to a crag with nothing difficult to do? Nobody from Sheffield, that's for sure.

My hypothesis: Grinah Stones has not been documented because doing so would suck all the enjoyment out of the crag. Undocumented, you can tell your mates that you went to Grinah and did some great climbs; documented, you'd have to say that you walked two hours to climb some Font 6s and thus suffer permanent excommunication. It's that simple.