[carlisle slapper]

You can easily write guides without claiming FA's, the entire lakes bouldering guide has no record in of who did what as does the northumberland bouldering and scotland guides. 10 years ago I'd maybe have been hot on the retro claim but nowadays if i cant be arsed to write it up and someone gets there before me i dont dip my oar back in and would be genuinely be thankful if someone wrote up the areas i dont have time for. I've had a few people ask for info about what i've done around coruisk this past year and all i've been able to do is point out boulders that are good to climb on, i know i did lots of boulders there but i cant write a topo for it, explorers privelege doesn't have to be full of ego if its only ever shared with the company at the time, its going to be hard to keep totally silent without looking antisocial.

 i can fully appreciate the debate. Sort of seems like preserving the last peak dodo when everyone on here has eaten the rest of them (by using guides) I mean not documenting Eats wood might have been a decent idea hey? but then again for access sensitive venues its hard to prove what we as a community have lost if nothing is ever written up. It also tends to get branded as elitist over time, i mean i've literally had an article about me being an elitist form the old limestone cowboys topo days when access was very uncertain around griffs, badger etc. I've since helped write them up for the BMC guide and it seems like a lot more people enjoy those venues now than before.

I just find the situation odd as its bouldering at its freest for sure but ultimately if its a well travelled area then its all going to rely on a degree of self deception. Personally i'd be up for it if all of bouldering went in that direction nowadays as well where people just went out for a climb and it doesn't matter what its called or how hard it is. 90% of my own climbing is in that realm not by choice. I do tend to mentally log how tricky something is once i've done it, once that process is done the development wedge is created. so its only by keeping quiet on already clean rock with perfect landings that an area can be truly preserved in a leave no trace manner. Does that venue exist? no one should be able to answer that really or it would cease to. I guess thats my point, it feels like the artificial radio silence will gradually be eroded, i bet even this thread has shot it up peoples radar.
     
I can sit here and watch videos of people climbing there and get huge amounts more info on how to climb stuff at Grinah, much more than say a random esoteric page in the 7+8s guide. To me its videos and beta watching in front of problems that kill the magic in the sport that people are discussing here. more than writing up venues does. Its also pretty easy to video climbs compared to writing topos so that should really be a no no up there too if the vote swings that way. If it does then its a cool experiment and i'd be fascinated to see how it develops.

[Falling Down]

I read this poem a couple of hours ago. https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/43073/corsons-inlet and thought it was worth sharing in full. It’s called  Corsons Inlet by Archibald Randolph (A.R.) Ammons.

This stanza jumped out and made me think of this thread. The boldface is mine.

“the walk liberating, I was released from forms,   
from the perpendiculars,
      straight lines, blocks, boxes, binds
of thought
into the hues, shadings, rises, flowing bends and blends   
               of sight:

                         I allow myself eddies of meaning:   
yield to a direction of significance
running
like a stream through the geography of my work:   
   you can find
in my sayings
                     swerves of action
                     like the inlet’s cutting
edge:
               there are dunes of motion,
organizations of grass, white sandy paths of remembrance   
in the overall wandering of mirroring mind:

but Overall is beyond me: is the sum of these events
I cannot draw, the ledger I cannot keep, the accounting
beyond the account:

in nature there are few sharp lines: there are areas of   
primrose
       more or less dispersed;
disorderly orders of bayberry; between the rows
of dunes,
irregular swamps of reeds,
though not reeds alone, but grass, bayberry, yarrow, all ...
predominantly reeds:

I have reached no conclusions, have erected no boundaries,   
shutting out and shutting in, separating inside
          from outside: I have
          drawn no lines.

[Andy B]

So, who from the UKB collective has actually climbed there? So far, I can count Bonjoy, Grimer, JB, Cofe, Andy Popp, me, Jacqusie (?), Teaboy (?) anyone else?

 
and various others in the two videos posted earlier are current or past UKB regulars.

[andy popp]

I read this poem a couple of hours ago. https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/43073/corsons-inlet and thought it was worth sharing in full. It’s called  Corsons Inlet by Archibald Randolph (A.R.) Ammons.

This stanza jumped out and made me think of this thread. The boldface is mine.

“the walk liberating, I was released from forms,   
from the perpendiculars,
      straight lines, blocks, boxes, binds
of thought
into the hues, shadings, rises, flowing bends and blends   
               of sight:

                         I allow myself eddies of meaning:   
yield to a direction of significance
running
like a stream through the geography of my work:   
   you can find
in my sayings
                     swerves of action
                     like the inlet’s cutting
edge:
               there are dunes of motion,
organizations of grass, white sandy paths of remembrance   
in the overall wandering of mirroring mind:

but Overall is beyond me: is the sum of these events
I cannot draw, the ledger I cannot keep, the accounting
beyond the account:

in nature there are few sharp lines: there are areas of   
primrose
       more or less dispersed;
disorderly orders of bayberry; between the rows
of dunes,
irregular swamps of reeds,
though not reeds alone, but grass, bayberry, yarrow, all ...
predominantly reeds:

I have reached no conclusions, have erected no boundaries,   
shutting out and shutting in, separating inside
          from outside: I have
          drawn no lines.

Wonderful Ben, both for this thread and simply in itself. Reminds me a lot of the tone of the poems in Theodore Roethke's "North American Sequence." (No, it's not about beta).

[highrepute]

I've been but not for years. I'm in the not document camp. Although, I'm not exactly sure why and can see the other side of the arguement.

I guess I enjoyed my visit and would like to be able to go back and have a similar experience.

[mark20]

So, who from the UKB collective has actually climbed there? So far, I can count Bonjoy, Grimer, JB, Cofe, Andy Popp, me, Jacqusie (?), Teaboy (?) anyone else?

 
and various others in the two videos posted earlier are current or past UKB regulars.

I've been up there a couple of times, with (ex-)UKBers Nan, leeroy, gritlad, Franco (!), and on both occasions visiting climbers from Europe! It's a such a lovely spot, what you imagine grit crags to be, ie more like wild North Yorkshire moorland rather than battered Burbage. Hence why I like taking visiting wads there.
I agree with keeping it undocumented. It's either a mega long walk from the Woodhead, or a bit of a logistical challenge from the reserviour road (unless you are lucky enough to be able to go midweek), which definately adds to the exploratory feel. A good day up there feels more like mountaineering than bouldering.

How you keep it undocumented in the modern age though I don't know, when it's all too easy for a insta vid to pop up "great new 7B highball at Grinah" etc, which to some extent has already happened with the two linked videos  Can't exactly stop people posting about their experiences, but as carlilse slapper says, perhaps video beta takes more away from the experience than documentation does. I suspect over time it will tend towards being documented, with the odd video, photos online, emails sent, etc etc The first rule of Grinah club...

Must get back up there this year 

[Will Hunt]

Worth bearing in mind when surveying those who have actually been that the group is self-selecting. It shouldn't be a surprise that there is a preference for leaving undocumented because they are those who have been in spite of all the obstacles.

[DAVETHOMAS90]

I read this poem a couple of hours ago. https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/43073/corsons-inlet and thought it was worth sharing in full. It’s called  Corsons Inlet by Archibald Randolph (A.R.) Ammons.

This stanza jumped out and made me think of this thread. The boldface is mine.

“the walk liberating, I was released from forms,   
from the perpendiculars,
      straight lines, blocks, boxes, binds
of thought
into the hues, shadings, rises, flowing bends and blends   
               of sight:

                         I allow myself eddies of meaning:   
yield to a direction of significance
running
like a stream through the geography of my work:   
   you can find
in my sayings
                     swerves of action
                     like the inlet’s cutting
edge:
               there are dunes of motion,
organizations of grass, white sandy paths of remembrance   
in the overall wandering of mirroring mind:

but Overall is beyond me: is the sum of these events
I cannot draw, the ledger I cannot keep, the accounting
beyond the account:

in nature there are few sharp lines: there are areas of   
primrose
       more or less dispersed;
disorderly orders of bayberry; between the rows
of dunes,
irregular swamps of reeds,
though not reeds alone, but grass, bayberry, yarrow, all ...
predominantly reeds:

I have reached no conclusions, have erected no boundaries,   
shutting out and shutting in, separating inside
          from outside: I have
          drawn no lines.

Wonderful Ben, both for this thread and simply in itself. Reminds me a lot of the tone of the poems in Theodore Roethke's

Yes, that is wonderful. Amazing. Thank you Mr. Ben 

And "North American Sequence." (No, it's not about beta).  Very funny 

Edit. Of course "disorderly orders" is the dilemma here isn't it, that Bonjoy is trying to wrestle with. You've only got to thank him really, for bringing this to our attention. I've never been to Grinah. From what I'd heard, it was something similar to the Woolpacks on Kinder. The walk in doesn't sound excessive compared to other summer crags.

Or: "..grasps of disorder, widening   
scope, but enjoying the freedom.."

[Johnny Brown]

If you study a map it is about the most remote spot in the Peak. Unlike the Woolpacks the rock is good and very few walkers pass anywhere near. The walk in probably longer than any in the Peak but nothing compared to many mountain crags. I think you'd like it Dave.

[DAVETHOMAS90]

Hey JB. Hope all's good 

I think you might be right.
Well worth the walk and some soloing around.

I don't know where my comparison came from. I think I may have been talking to you a few years ago. I vaguely remember that, something about keeping the secret 

Props to BJ for documenting stuff 

[Dingdong]

This topic should be revisited. I personally don’t agree with not documenting Grinah. There are so many amazing lines there, and so much left to do that it’s a total waste for it to remain a scrittley mess.

It’s not exactly going to become the new Stanage Plantation with its 2 hour approach and having some proper documentation means people can go and know what’s there. I thought this thread felt super gatekeepy and to be honest there’s nothing stoping a group of us saying fuck that and documenting it anyways. Also there’s already a load of videos out there of the problems that have been established so what’s the point in not having stuff documented properly on UKC?

[Bonjoy]

55.5% were in favour of documentation. If and how anyone runs with that  ...

[spidermonkey09]

I think if, hypothetically, one was to go ahead and document it, the current status quo would be best respected by not giving first ascent details in any miniguide and ideally not bother with names either, or go with purely descriptive names, eg. big arete, overhanging prow, central slab, right arete etc etc.

To me that would strike a good balance between documentation and respecting its current status as a wild space away from the green tick insta bollocks that bouldering can become.

[Dingdong]

I’m gonna go ahead and write up a public guide at some point soon but I agree that no FA name convention is the way to go, having actual problem names could be useful though as there’s about 50 arêtes there so could become confusing.

[spidermonkey09]

I think it being a bit confusing is fine, thats kind of the point and what marks it out as different. As long as stuff is logically described left to right I think it would be fine. For me its a very small step from giving stuff overblown names to people adding FA details, which then leads to retroclaims and all of a sudden its a bunfight. You can also just name individual boulders and then give problems simply numbers.

[teestub]

I thought this thread felt super gatekeepy and to be honest there’s nothing stoping a group of us saying fuck that and documenting it anyways. Also there’s already a load of videos out there of the problems that have been established so what’s the point in not having stuff documented properly on UKC?

Gatekeeping would suggest trying to bar or dissuade participation. That doesn’t seem to be the case here, rather leaving one crag where a different experience of bouldering can be had.

[remus]

I’m gonna go ahead and write up a public guide at some point soon but I agree that no FA name convention is the way to go, having actual problem names could be useful though as there’s about 50 arêtes there so could become confusing.

Personally I think this would be a shame, for all the reasons previously discussed in this thread. I like a bit of documenting as much as the next person but if everything is documented I think we lose something, and the peak is about as heavily documented as climbing gets.

[Dingdong]

I thought this thread felt super gatekeepy and to be honest there’s nothing stoping a group of us saying fuck that and documenting it anyways. Also there’s already a load of videos out there of the problems that have been established so what’s the point in not having stuff documented properly on UKC?

Gatekeeping would suggest trying to bar or dissuade participation. That doesn’t seem to be the case here, rather leaving one crag where a different experience of bouldering can be had.

It depends on who’s post you read but some of them read as very gatekeepy. Also it’s a bit of a fake experience seeing as there’s already videos and information out there circulating, it’s not like you’ve randomly walked two hours in a direction and found some cool boulders, you’re going there specifically to climb. Also if you wish to have that experience you can always just not read the topo?

[Dingdong]

I’m gonna go ahead and write up a public guide at some point soon but I agree that no FA name convention is the way to go, having actual problem names could be useful though as there’s about 50 arêtes there so could become confusing.

Personally I think this would be a shame, for all the reasons previously discussed in this thread. I like a bit of documenting as much as the next person but if everything is documented I think we lose something, and the peak is about as heavily documented as climbing gets.

whilst I fully respect your opinion remus I sadly don’t agree with it. We lose nothing and gain quite a bit by documenting this incredible crag, and as has been voted by members on this thread it seems a majority would prefer some kind of documentation.

[remus]

Also it’s a bit of a fake experience seeing as there’s already videos and information out there circulating, it’s not like you’ve randomly walked two hours in a direction and found some cool boulders, you’re going there specifically to climb. Also if you wish to have that experience you can always just not read the topo?

I think it's fun to have a venue where there's not a lot of info available because it's something different to the other climbing available in the peak, so I'd like to minimise the amount of info rather than turning it in to the next pinches wall. Saying you can just not look at the topo is like saying to trad climbers "just don't clip the bolts". Once the info is available it'll change the experience.

[stone]

I think if, hypothetically, one was to go ahead and document it, the current status quo would be best respected by not giving first ascent details in any miniguide and ideally not bother with names either, or go with purely descriptive names, eg. big arete, overhanging prow, central slab, right arete etc etc.

To me that would strike a good balance between documentation and respecting its current status as a wild space away from the green tick insta bollocks that bouldering can become.

I can empathise with the wish to keep somewhere wild and untravelled. Years ago, when visiting Canada, We thought it would be great to go to Wood Buffalo NP since that was where TV programs about wildlife seemed to be set. But it is impossible for punters like us to visit. Instead we went to Jasper and Banff. Those are the complete opposite in terms of every effort having being made to be accessible to everyone (not just reluctant walkers such as my other half but also wheel chair users etc). I thought the Canadians had it right in setting things up with two accessibility extremes rather than a half-way house.

I guess I'm trying to explain why I think SpiderMonkey's half-way seems worse to me than either extreme. No one has to look at insta and get upset by that. If it is going to be on UKC, I'd favour going all out, making up fun, memorable, names for things and giving grades etc.

[Moo]

What about names but no grades and no FA details ? 

[stone]

Perhaps, put them up on UKC with photos, videos, topos etc and say people have three months to come forward and name them if they are problems that were familiar to them from the past or whatever. After then, whoever is bothering to do the documentation should feel free to invent names willy-nilly IMO.

But like I said, I can also empathise with those wanting zero documentation or mentioning of them etc.

[Droyd]

 

as has been voted by members on this thread it seems a majority

While I agree with the idea of documenting in some form, I don't think that a poll in which 'dog biscuit' received almost 10% of the votes can be used as evidence that documenting is the will of the people.

I agree with Moo/spidermonkey; if it's to be done it should be done in a way that provides the bare minimum of ego/Insta-bait. To that end avoiding Font/V grades would be good, but I see the value in providing some info on relative difficulty. Maybe a good place to resurrect B grades?

[T_B]

Stone - have you been there?

It makes me chuckle that people describe the Grinah Stones as this mythical ‘wild’ place. You walk through forestry commission plantation, then up a massive track past grouse shooting butts before crossing a patchwork of managed moorland.

I was up there again this June with my eldest son camping and it was flippin freezing. The number of days you could actually boulder up there given it’s incredibly exposed are very small in reality.

I think I voted for documentation as I’m not concerned about the environmental impact a guidebook would have. Unless you go midweek you need to cycle up the reservoirs with a pad on your back, then do the walk in.