[abarro81]

The majority of people who know of grinah and have gone will have previous information about the already established lines from googling and seeing the many videos that exist or asking about

There's a big difference between having a full guide with descriptions, names, grades, topo etc. and having to dig for a video here or a bit of info there.
Back when I went to to Tom et je ris it involved watching a shitty 20min video of Durif shot from miles away and emailing people I didn't know to find out how to approach. We still got lost (it was actually in a guide, the guide was just shit!). I'm glad it was like that, it all felt a little different and more worthwhile, even if I wouldn't want that to be the default situation for crags.

[steveri]

So you have never looked at where it is, or any videos or pictures?

I'll probably just get an Uber, or look at the OS map.

[Fultonius]

Maybe the solution is that any topo made requires the solving of some complex puzzle to be able to access? And twenty five questions all asking:

Are you sure you want access to this?

You will not be able to reverse this decision...

Are you still sure?

Do you accept that you are destroying a bit of what makes climbing great by downloading this?

Etc.

And maybe involve some kind of sacrifice? (ritual or otherwise).

And then, some kind of rule that any videos you upload have some kind of watermark, shaming you for sharing? Or maybe there's a private youtube channel, with access only for patreons who donate to some kind of good cause....

[El Mocho]

I went to Grinah in the early 2000's, I think before JB went (I remember him going later and raving about it). This was def pre pdf guide or youtube vids. I had heard off someone it was good, so there was a bit of elitism/gatekeeperism to it. I looked at the os map and went on my own, just me and my dog (and an impossible view). I took a rope with me, no pads and did a few rope solos and boulders. It didn't make a massive impression on me. I enjoyed it and sure had fun but I've been lucky enough to experience exploration in climbing in even more wild and remote locations. I may well have preferred it with more info and a bunch of 7,8's and proj to go at.

In general I think climbing benefits from documentation, esp when it comes to fa info. I love reading the fa list in guides where you get little stories about the fas, nuggets of info in to the character's and scenes of the time, and I think this is something a bit missing with bouldering. Bradders mentioned Ben's Groove sitter in his best of list, how many people know the story of the fa? It's not super amazing or funny but adds something to the time and people and problem.

I do think though there is a place for something different, somewhere you can get a more unique experience. I think more people would go and have a good time if there was a readily available topo (as likely would I), and this may be elitist of me to think it, but there are 100s of crags in the Peak/yorks with topos and vids and grades and fas so why not keep one place for people who want something different? In the 20+ years since my only visit I've not had a strong desire to go back, in the past I've got my adventure ticks in other ways. Having been unable to visit exotic/remote locations for a couple of years it's starting to become more attractive to me, with a pad this time and maybe some other people. I had no idea there was a topo and wouldn't have gone looking for one.

I'm not, personally, hugely bothered either way and my experience of the place is 20 years out of date. Times and approaches change and it could be I'm an old fart in my thinking about it. + there are youtube vids and apparently a pdf to those in the know.

[Bradders]

Bradders mentioned Ben's Groove sitter in his best of list, how many people know the story of the fa? It's not super amazing or funny but adds something to the time and people and problem.

This is a good analogy for where I'm coming from.

I heard the story of the Ben's Groove Sitter FA verbally from someone. I genuinely can't even remember who I heard it from tbh. I'll not repeat it here, because the version of it that I know is probably totally wrong! Or at least half wrong. However, if anything, to me that increases its magic, its potency. Having something known, but not known, is a fantastic, mystical thing.

It's the same with Grinah. We all know it's there. And how to get to it. People have been raving about it for years. There are a handful of videos and pictures, but that's it. It leaves space for the imagination, allows you to dream. A guide completely changes that and I think it's really quite sad that people are so keen to stamp it out, when they really don't have to.

[petejh]

A cool approach for places like Grinah would be to have a written topo, kept in a little weatherproof box which is left at the stones. No photos. Requiring a commitment to the walk to see the topo to do the boulders in said topo.

That satisfies both desires - for documentation and for a bit of mystique.

But we can’t have nice things. 🙁

Really I think the people who want it all online fall into JB’s characterisation, which I think is bang on - it’s so much about ego.

Not documenting makes little sense; but neither does climbing yet it manages to be pretty cool despite the lack of reason.

[36chambers]

sod Grinah Stones, what's the craic with the Ben's sitter FA? Did Steve push someone off just as they were about to top out?

[El Mocho]

sod Grinah Stones, what's the craic with the Ben's sitter FA? Did Steve push someone off just as they were about to top out?

My memory has been proven by others to be pretty patchy. I think JB was around so may confirm/correct my recollections...

We (The Leeds crew) were at Caley one day, doing our normal of cruising around doing 30-40 problems and then bits of soloing etc that we seemed to think was what bouldering consisted of. Myles and Patta were up from Sheffield and were trying the proj sitter to Ben's. Both were doing ok but Myles was looking best on it. His hands were moving so fast on the slaps that from then on we called him 'fast hands Gibson' using the same creative nick name process that led to Harry being called 9 toez, Nick being called Shakin' Nick etc. I think JB has some photos but even using his camera skills Myles' hands are a blur. Myles was wearing very snazzy tartan trousers. Neither did it and they went back to Shef. In the meantime we didn't bother to get on it as we were all lazy fucks.

A few days later Patter and Myles are talking about coming back up to try it again. Myles doesn't own a car. Patter refuses to give him a lift and drives up without him. Patter conquers the project, the guilt of dropping Myles is worth it for the primo fa.

Turns out our dark horse hero Stevey D had made the fa a few days before the Sheffielders first session and just hadn't told anyone...

Just to reconfirm this is all based on my dodgy memory and gossip regarding the non lift. Patta, Myles and Steve are all lovely blokes.

[Johnny Brown]

My memory is that it was a Sunday, and it wasn’t really a project on anyone’s radar until that day. Patta came back on the Tuesday and some days later Steve put the claim in for the Monday. It seemed like karma had come for Richie but also remarkably fortuitous timing for Steve. And we weren’t being lazy, none of us could touch it at first. When I did it, probably the winter after, it definitely felt like the hardest thing I’d done up to then, a notch harder than stuff like Brad Pit or Lager lager, really intricate.

Back on topic, I don’t think anyone is suggesting FA history isn’t in the main a brilliant thing and a great part of climbing. Just that at this one venue it might be interesting to do something different.

[Bradders]

What I'd heard was that the first and second ascent were both done on the same day, without either climber actually seeing the other there. Seemed too good to be true, but in my head it is.

[Tom de Gay]

El Mocho, JB – that's my recollection of events too. I don't recall Myles's tartan but I do recall him casually demonstrating that if you're sufficiently strong, toe hooks on Zoo York are just cosmetic. Later saw Tim Clifford flash the groove into the stand, then step off because it was too high. 'twas a time of legends, when dark horses stalked the land…

[36chambers]

cheers everyone I do enjoy hearing about this stuff

What I'd heard was that the first and second ascent were both done on the same day, without either climber actually seeing the other there. Seemed too good to be true, but in my head it is.

thinking about it, I think I might have heard this version before.

[Bradders]

El Mocho, JB – that's my recollection of events too. I don't recall Myles's tartan but I do recall him casually demonstrating that if you're sufficiently strong, toe hooks on Zoo York are just cosmetic. Later saw Tim Clifford flash the groove into the stand, then step off because it was too high. 'twas a time of legends, when dark horses stalked the land…

Reminds me of this old video of Matt Birch doing the sit. Just an incredible display of climbing ability.

https://joshuatreebouldering.wordpress.com/2012/07/27/caley-roadside-with-matt-birch/

Also, I'd always wondered whether it had been flashed. Not even Aidan Roberts managed it!

[ashtond6]

Who is going to send the topo then?

I’d love to go but haven’t yet because there is no info available. It’s gatekeeperism without a doubt.

It’s never going to be worn out because of its location, so why do other people care how adventurous and exploratory my private day up there is that is nothing to do with them?

[Dingdong]

El Mocho, JB – that's my recollection of events too. I don't recall Myles's tartan but I do recall him casually demonstrating that if you're sufficiently strong, toe hooks on Zoo York are just cosmetic. Later saw Tim Clifford flash the groove into the stand, then step off because it was too high. 'twas a time of legends, when dark horses stalked the land…

Reminds me of this old video of Matt Birch doing the sit. Just an incredible display of climbing ability.

https://joshuatreebouldering.wordpress.com/2012/07/27/caley-roadside-with-matt-birch/

Also, I'd always wondered whether it had been flashed. Not even Aidan Roberts managed it!

Matt is the only person to flash west side story as far as I’m aware

[Johnny Brown]

AFAIK that is a myth. Surprised it’s still doing the rounds.

Who is going to send the topo then?

I’d love to go but haven’t yet because there is no info available. It’s gatekeeperism without a doubt.

If there is a guide being circulated in secret, as Carlos states, then yes that absolutely looks like gatekeeping.

I don’t see how not having a guide in the first place is. The first bouldering guides only appeared in the nineties, when a lot of us started it was the norm to boulder with very little info. I recommend trying it.

[Dingdong]

AFAIK that is a myth. Surprised it’s still doing the rounds.

Who is going to send the topo then?

I’d love to go but haven’t yet because there is no info available. It’s gatekeeperism without a doubt.

If there is a guide being circulated in secret, as Carlos states, then yes that absolutely looks like gatekeeping.

I don’t see how not having a guide in the first place is. The first bouldering guides only appeared in the nineties, when a lot of us started it was the norm to boulder with very little info. I recommend trying it.

Interesting, I asked Matt directly about it and he confirmed he flashed it unless the myth is that others have also flashed it but not aware of any others?

[Johnny Brown]

He told me he didn’t.

[stone]

I've bouldered, on and off, at a bumbly level, since the late 80s. Although I've never made much use of guides, since the very beginning I've been very reliant on being shown where things were and what to do by other people in person. Recently I've found online videos fantastic for expanding and facilitating that.

Some people are visionaries who can unlock the natural potential offered by the rocks. I really admire that. I do potter around  a little on rock that I don't know about, but I'm not someone who has the talent to make the most of the rocks unguided.

I guess it is hard for people who do have such a talent to understand how others lack it.

[Johnny Brown]

I don’t have a great talent for that either. Most of the new stuff I’ve done has been spotted by others. But no one is stopping you having that experience at literally any other crag in the country. But for people who really value occasionally not being spoon fed, I don’t see how leaving one remote crag undocumented is such an imposition? I suspect you’d get on better than you think.

[andy popp]

Amazing! Two accounts apparently from the horse's mouth that are completely contradictory.

Years ago there was a very persistent myth that Elie Chevieux had failed to onsight Sardine. I know he did because I was belaying. As we were the only people at the crag I've no idea how the myth began or persisted.

[Bradders]

I recommend trying it.

Worth asking, Carlos I presume from your posts that you've been there, but have you been and actually climbed without the info? Or did you go up having got the PDF first?

[mrjonathanr]

Seems odd to me that people should be vexed about one venue left undocumented. Fair enough if you’ve exhausted every documented venue in the Pennines, but otherwise, why should it matter? It’s not as if the climbing is altered in any way by the lack of documentation, just the convenience of access and ease of recording ticks.

[Dingdong]

It’s kind of funny that people assume documentation is ego driven - the whole point of this was to document the lines without any FA info just so people who want it can access that info, personally I didn’t care to add names to it. For the record I’ve not been yet and when I do go and if I did add new stuff I’d continue to not include names and just update the lines to say “theres a thing here that’s good and worth trying” as others have mentioned it’s a big jumble and can be hard to get around, ease of access is never a bad thing - I love adventuring and jungle bashing more than I love doing established stuff so I understand the exploratory nature of it too but there’s still loads of crags and outcrops in that area and beyond that people can visit for a truly adventurous day out, just use google maps and there’s loads of areas that have no names in OS maps. Everyone knows about grinah and the info is out there, it was maybe adventurous years ago when first discovered but not sure that’s the case anymore?

[JamieG]

I find the accusations of gate keeping and elitism really weird for two reasons.

First, if anything saying ‘here is a place you can go and just climb. Don’t worry about names, grades, lines. Just enjoy yourself’ is the opposite of gate keeping or elitism.

Second, the people desperate to publicly document Grinah are telling a set of climbers (and maybe importantly a minority) they can’t have this one crag out of the whole peak for a specific experience. It must be homogenised and brought into line with the literally hundreds of other venues in the peak.

As has been pointed out before all the information to get there is easily accessible and available. And if you want to try some specific lines that information is out there too with a bit of searching, watching videos and messaging etc. Even more so after this thread. If you must have a guide, just message DingDong. Just please don’t publicise it widely.

I really don’t know who all these climbers are that want to go to Grinah but simply can’t get the information. It feels like a straw man argument.

(Just to make it clear, I haven’t been before but have meant to go for years. But life, kids, work makes even getting to roadside crags tricky. But I find the existence of Grinah inspiring and would love to visit one day and just climb. A publicly available guide would spoil that. I would definitely look.)