[Dingdong]

Grinah most certainly has been documented which is my point, there’s a thorough 45 page pdf with most of the lines?

And there’s many hard projects which haven’t been done so most stuff Will be between those grades will with a few harder problems but there’s lots of harder stuff to go at still.

[stone]

To my mind the difference between the UKB 'best of year' threads and Instagram is that the former rewards depth and nuance and honesty, and the latter surface-level engagement and big numbers.

Thanks, that's a great explanation. That was also what I most liked about other peoples' entries on that thread -their descriptions of their experiences on and around each climb.

[Will Hunt]

So it's already documented then?

 


(Personally I'm in favour of documentation but understand that there's a muddleheaded argument against documentation and that publishing a topo would be an extinction event for that side of the argument i.e. the impact would be irreversible.)

[abarro81]

If it's already documented but the existence of the document is semi on the down-low, why not just keep it like that? Makes it easy to ignore the existence of some documentation for those that want, and those that really want to find out the info will hunt around for the topo?
Plenty of Euro sport crags that are "documented" but that you won't find in a guide or online without going to some effort...

[Ross Barker]

Took the words right out of my mouth, Barrows. Anyone who wants to the document can probably find it with enough sleuthing (and if you're gonna put in the effort to walk in you'd obviously be willing to dig for the guide), and people who don't are very unlikely to stumble upon it and have their sense of exploration and adventure tarnished.

I've only been up the once, May 2022, and honestly a lot of the fun for me was throwing the pads down upon arrival and just running around going "fucking hell look at that!", "what a line!", etc. Appetite whetted by the few pics and videos I'd found, but not tarnished by a full guide leading me directly to whichever 7B I'd already decided was my goal the night before.

It's like walking vs. driving, you take in so much more at a slower pace, looking in all the nooks and crannies, and I think Grinah is just that sort of place for it. If the pdf was published I'd look at it because I'm a curiously undisciplined turd, but as it remains obscured I'll keep a little bit of magic for my next visit.

That said, it was nice to chat with Bonjoy about some of the problems I'd seen and tried, rather than being fully anti-information, but I don't really know where that sits on the spectrum of documentation.

TL;DR what we have now is probably the best balance so that everyone is happy (except people who really want to publicise a PDF for some reason)

[remus]

That said, it was nice to chat with Bonjoy about some of the problems I'd seen and tried, rather than being fully anti-information, but I don't really know where that sits on the spectrum of documentation.

[Bradders]

Grinah most certainly has been documented which is my point, there’s a thorough 45 page pdf with most of the lines?

And there’s many hard projects which haven’t been done so most stuff Will be between those grades will with a few harder problems but there’s lots of harder stuff to go at still.

FFS so your original post should really have read "it's been done, bad luck losers"...

Agree with Barrows, those who are that desperate can have it. Keep it to yourselves otherwise.

[Dingdong]

Grinah most certainly has been documented which is my point, there’s a thorough 45 page pdf with most of the lines?

And there’s many hard projects which haven’t been done so most stuff Will be between those grades will with a few harder problems but there’s lots of harder stuff to go at still.

FFS so your original post should really have read "it's been done, bad luck losers"...

Agree with Barrows, those who are that desperate can have it. Keep it to yourselves otherwise.

No because I didn’t write it up or had anything to do with it, my point is that it exists and it’s sort of elitist to keep it obscured and hidden. Yes some people with contacts will find it fine but not everyone will be able to…

[Will Hunt]

To complete the thought experiment. Now that Schrödinger's Topo is out of the box, do those who opposed documentation feel like their experience up there without said topo is diminished?

[Bradders]

To complete the thought experiment. Now that Schrödinger's Topo is out of the box, do those who opposed documentation feel like their experience up there without said topo is diminished?

Yes. A little bit of magic definitely feels lost already.

[JamieG]

Tragedy of the commons.

[Johnny Brown]

To complete the thought experiment. Now that Schrödinger's Topo is out of the box, do those who opposed documentation feel like their experience up there without said topo is diminished?

Yes. A little bit of magic definitely feels lost already.

Agreed. This is a depressingly familiar situation from my work in conservation, where every battle you win against development only serves to bring it to the attention of more people who think the place could be better utilised.

This is a real shame. It’s not about omitting the FA info as has been suggested, it’s about prescribing lines, grades and the whole mentality of ticking and rules that follows. We did have one place in The Peak where you could escape that. It was a unique experience. Shame on the ego(s) that couldn’t leave it be.

[steveri]

Never been, would like to go. Not having a guide is a positive for me, I want to feel like I've made an effort to get there and taken a chance.

[Stabbsy]

This is a real shame. It’s not about omitting the FA info as has been suggested, it’s about prescribing lines, grades and the whole mentality of ticking and rules that follows. We did have one place in The Peak where you could escape that. It was a unique experience. Shame on the ego(s) that couldn’t leave it be.

I don't think you can assume it's ego-driven. If it was ego, wouldn't said person(s) have shared it widely/publicly to make something of their achievements? Agree it's a shame though.

[abarro81]

Who made the topo?

Personally I like having to hunt for info on crags sometimes. Even if it means having some torturously bad hand drawn topos for crags like Supermarche on my laptop (and actually no idea where it is other than near a particular town, and, presumably, near a supermarket)...

[spidermonkey09]

Just to counteract the general funereal tone I'm probably more likely to go now I know theres some better info out there. Is that a bad thing? It hardly sounds like its been given the Rockfax treatment, and I've got no objection to having to track the topo down rather than it be freely hosted somewhere if thats the best way to maintain equanimity.

Surely the author of the topo is unlikely to be outed on a public forum lest JB start egging their house/ shouting 'shame!' at them in the street!

[Dingdong]

The majority of people who know of grinah and have gone will have previous information about the already established lines from googling and seeing the many videos that exist or asking about, anyone saying otherwise is kidding themselves  no one is really blindly doing a 2 hour approach not knowing what’s there, just make the info public and stop pretending it’s some last bastion of climbing purity already.

[steveri]

blindly doing a 2 hour approach not knowing what’s there

That's the plan, yes 

[Dingdong]

blindly doing a 2 hour approach not knowing what’s there

That's the plan, yes 

So you have never looked at where it is, or any videos or pictures?

[Johnny Brown]

I know this may be hard to grasp but it is not very long, only about fifteen years or so, since we lived in a world where very little info was available online. On my first visit about twenty years back all we knew was it was worth the walk.

Who did you get the topo from? A google doesn’t turn anything up.

[Dingdong]

There’s literally a video on here from 2008 lmao https://youtu.be/ptzgmuwt6qk?si=Z6rlHZGmdHQsv3XN

[Fiend]

Absolutely the most prescriptive, informative, authoritative and detailed guide I've seen there.

[Johnny Brown]

I don't think you can assume it's ego-driven. If it was ego, wouldn't said person(s) have shared it widely/publicly to make something of their achievements? Agree it's a shame though.

Oh I think you can. You could equally say if it was a selfless act of information sharing, they would have shared it widely. I suspect they’re playing a longer game and know by letting it trickle out the endgame is inevitable.

Writing stuff up is 99% ego in my experience, even if people don’t like to admit or confront it. It’s very deeply-wired dog pissing on a tree thing. Myself included., the allure of the FA, the right to name and grade, write the rules is hugely attractive, plus of course the lifetime of reinforcement via repeats. Few things reload your satisfaction like a repeat report along the lines of ‘brilliant, and no pushover’.

It’s no coincidence that the most vocal people calling for documentation here are active developers. There is very little decent new rock left to do in The Peak (particularly if you have any sort of quality control) and the idea there is all this great rock left unclaimed must be killing them.

One thing that confuses me, the idea that this idea is ‘outdated / well past it’s sell by date’. I don’t get that at all, I don’t recall this being much of a thing in the past ( I mean why would it be?), and the more we run out of unclaimed rock the more it seems like an idea for now and the future. You can’t put the genie back in the bottle.

‘Lmao’ youtube started in 2005, so I was three years out. No names or grades on the vid though. Again, where did you get the topo?

[Andy W]

Fuck, sometimes I despair…. Yes I’m old yes I’m miserable and yes I’m most definitely a dinosaur. I’m not even going to bother justifying my position, other people have done that further up thread. I’ve never even been, but places and experiences like it should be preserved imho, genuinely why do people feel the need to document everything.??

Grinah is already extensively documented including names of all the boulders and areas of the crag, unfinished projects with their perceived difficulty, it’s just not public?

I wrote a long reply then lost it! Not documenting will become a big thing, look at Rabatou etc, the difficulty will be not telling people about not documenting.

I'd say leave it as it is.

[Ross Barker]

We need to leave it undocumented so that it's a safe space for dabbing, stacking pads and crouch starting.