[bolehillbilly]

Great thread, Yule Grinah.

[Fiend]

Then again 'Dog biscuit' seems like quite a popular option.

As it should be. It's gotta be a good place for dogs up there given the walk.

The very same walk that has precluded me having much of a viewpoint on this topic although it is an interesting debate. I quite like JB's idea of describing it in poem form, I fucking hate almost all poetry so that could be a good way to sum it all up.

[Will Hunt]

Thank you for bumping this thread because it gives me an excuse to moan about something that is semi off-topic.
Please can people stop comparing rock climbing development with colonialism? It brings to mind anti-vaxxers talking about Kristallnacht. There is no equivalence between people documenting climbing and the subjugation of entire populations.
It beggars belief it even needs saying.

[teestub]

It was your language rather than the action of climbing development that I labelled as ‘somewhat colonialist’. If you like you can replace colonialist with extractivist or capitalist 😄

[Johnny Brown]

Thank you for bumping this thread because it gives me an excuse to moan about something that is semi off-topic.
Please can people stop comparing rock climbing development with colonialism? It brings to mind anti-vaxxers talking about Kristallnacht. There is no equivalence between people documenting climbing and the subjugation of entire populations.
It beggars belief it even needs saying.

You can say that in the Uk. It really doesn't apply in a lot of the world.

[andy popp]

Yule Grinah.

The argument is over. Documentation is now vital so that someone can use this name.

[Will Hunt]

Thank you for bumping this thread because it gives me an excuse to moan about something that is semi off-topic.
Please can people stop comparing rock climbing development with colonialism? It brings to mind anti-vaxxers talking about Kristallnacht. There is no equivalence between people documenting climbing and the subjugation of entire populations.
It beggars belief it even needs saying.

You can say that in the Uk. It really doesn't apply in a lot of the world.

The walk in to Grinah must be further than I thought.

[carlisle slapper]

This has been a great thread. Good to see where opinions lie on a venue far from the road.

There seems to be many slightly different tangents to the debate. From my perspective i'd say it can boil down to: BonJoy has done a one man development job in the peak for 20+ years and has finally arrived at thinking of Grinah seriously. Does the climbing community want to benefit from the fact that he can be arsed to clean and write things up properly or do we veto it for now. Of course my faith in Bonjoys ability to climb somewhere and not do a good job of cleaning and mentally logging climbs if only in his own head is very low. So if Bonjoy climbs there, things will get mentally logged, tips and knowledge can be given to his mates. To enforce some sort of radio silence on days out there just isnt going to happen 100%

By not writing Grinah up it will always be an artificial wilderness. To me this is an interesting concept. Is it to be a my first unguided experience for climbers who want to fool themselves as to what true exploration is? Does it preserve the magic of discovery? whilst simultaneously knowing it to be a falsehood. Its only really far from the road because there are so many peak crags nearer, by the Iain Small walk in grading its basically roadside. so i guess its the fact that its more superfluous to the community that its been treated in such a way, if it were the first option from sheffield then i'd imagine it'd have a much more important role in the fabric of the sport.

When there is actually a crap tonne of new venues to find and explore in the UK (albeit further North) i'd much rather help educate climbers who want to genuinely explore. To run round the quiet side of Chonc a Ghille on Mull, cycling into Fisherfield forest with a pad. Fighting through conifer branches in Arrochar to discover 20m long boulders of steep schist. All are sat there waiting to be truly discovered. For the last 5 years i've been dead to climbing because i've been developing climbing in a forest that is the size of the dark peak and almost devoid of any major habitation and none of the crags are "venues" a totally manmade landscape devoid of humans. I sit scanning satellite images, watch boring walking vlog youtube vids and pour over different types and scale of map. I do all this selfishly to just find fun stuff nearby to satisfy my hobby. I'm not paid and so i'm pretty shit at writing stuff up as i'm too busy. So it can wait, but i've got more hard lines on the list now than i ever had in the old county so i'm happy the inspiration coffers are full, I realise lots of people would love to see topos for these venues but just treat them like grinah for now... as currently you have no choice the scale of the write up is too large.

Bonjoy, IMO, is pretty good at writing stuff up (until peakbouldering died anyway) He's not Chapman level of write up skill but he's pretty good. Writing lots of stuff up is a real skill and it does take an enormous amount of effort. I'd imagine Grimer's post has a lot of truth in it.
I hugely appreciate the work unknown stones have done in yorkshire, its lead to me having some great days out in areas that would've taken quite a bit of finding. Crags like Wolfrey, Ash head and cow close have really been brought to the fore
I'm entrigued to see what happens with Grinah. It makes no real odds to me, i know Bonjoy is a text away from "hey John, any good tricky fodder up at grinah?" In the same way that if he was off to Kielder the reverse text might happen and i could point him at a load of stuff thats crap to walk into but amazing to climb on.

personally i'm voting "yes" let the person who could actually be arsed to write the crag up write it up if he wants as he's been the main concrete in the peak bonding both old and new venues together in the last couple of decades 99% of which has been of positive benefit for the local climbers and If its time for Grinah to transfer to a written up venue from a non written up one then thats just the written progression of the sport IMO.
Of course there's a good debate to be had as to whether writing up venues kills magic. A good bunch of heads to ask are people who have experience on climbing in large venues that remain unwritten. The Frankenjura bouldering scene thrives but is entirely unwritten and arguably fairly elitist, word of mouth and connections are paramount there. If Grinah is to be kept as a word of mouth venue so be it, but dont sell the excuse as true exploration or wilderness style climbing, it'd be holding back the ink with a dam of blissful ignorance at best. true exploration is brilliant but also really crap and hard work in equal amounts. Fruitless days spent in wet bogs and woods are somewhat different to just rocking up to a guaranteed crag with decent boulders that isn't written up. Is it a sad day if all the peaks rocks end up written up? Yes i guess that is too.

[andy_e]

Interesting points Dan. My argument for the retention of pseudo-explorative areas in the Peak is that it's readily accessible for a lot of people. Not all of us are lucky enough to live on the edge of a plantation full of boulders, or an hour's drive from the entrance to Fisherfield... it gives a taste, a spark of the joys of exploring rock, which could then very well go one of two ways, "this isn't for me," or, "I want more". For me the exploration is very much part of the fun (who doesn't love going knee deep in a bog, impaling oneself on spruce branch, or startling a deer that nearly vaults into you, only to find that immaculate-looking wall is covered in flakes of rotting mica), but is it for everyone? Definitely not, but some of the wonder of that experience can be had by finding your own way around a place, climbing what looks good, and not constantly having to avoid the temptation to check what you're about to do, what you just did, is a 3-star UKC ticklist classic.

[cheque]

Just when you think that the Longest Paragraph of 2021 Award is done and dusted, along come two posts that blow the whole thing wide open again.

[andy_e]

Soz

[Johnny Brown]

Lol, another great brain dump from Varian. Can't be arsed to write up Kielder but I daresay he'd soon find the energy to quash any retroclaims. But a powerful last line. For me Grinah is about an alternative to this one-upmanship that has become so central to the sport. Not for everywhere or everyone, just one obscure hard to reach venue where the history is already beyond untangling.

We can claim we develop and write stuff up as a gift to the community, but it isn't seperable from the massive ego trip of naming and claiming. We all love the movement sure, but I've never climbed with anyone who doesn't get a massive motivational boost from the chance of a first ascent, and it's 99.9% from the chance of ownership. This is why people use the word colonialism, it is planting your flag and claiming that bit of rock, albeit only in one subculture and with no natives displaced, but micro-colonialism for the talented with diminishing returns for the punters.

I found it a unique experience to climb somewhere where that possibility was closed. It wasn't about assuming/ pretending that everything had been done or not been done, just that in this place that potential for ownership - whether by the tick of a repeat or the glory of the FA - wasn't available. Along with no info on what to climb it did make for a very diiferent experience, one that forced me to reassess why I climbed in a way that's never happened anywhere else.

I think it's worth preserving. It's not the same as going to Torridon as most of us would claim anything significant or at least be unable to point out any retroclaims were not FAs. The ego is still, if not quite in the driving seat, at least sat in the back and whispering sweet nothings.

[steveri]

I think I was conflating Grinah Stones and Woolpacks in my chin stroking. Turns out the rock is good and leaving it out of the guide was more convenience/exhaustion, I quite like that all this handwringing is more about the guidebook team collectively reaching the ‘sod it’ stage. I’m intrigued to take a look and quite like the idea of doing it without the temptation to prior knowledge the heck out of the experience. I pay far too much attention to guides, logbooks, etc. Perhaps a small collection of haikus?

[Falling Down]

So, who from the UKB collective has actually climbed there? So far, I can count Bonjoy, Grimer, JB, Cofe, Andy Popp, me, Jacqusie (?), Teaboy (?) anyone else?

[cheque]

 

[Johnny Brown]

I think I was conflating Grinah Stones and Woolpacks in my chin stroking. Turns out the rock is good and leaving it out of the guide was more convenience/exhaustion, I quite like that all this handwringing is more about the guidebook team collectively reaching the ‘sod it’ stage.

Having had a second hand lecture from the Glossop crew years before work on Over the moors begun, I think Grimer's point is characteristically glib and shouldn't be taken too seriously. The ethic isn't spelt out so clearly in the 80s Kinder guide but my understanding is that it was already established. And otoh they did write up all sorts of shit to the extent some didn't fit in the guide and was made available via pdf. So I think his take needs a large pinch of salt.

I’m intrigued to take a look and quite like the idea of doing it without the temptation to prior knowledge the heck out of the experience. I pay far too much attention to guides, logbooks, etc. Perhaps a small collection of haikus?

Anyone keen to claim a problem should be forced to submit a haiku instead, which is then assigned randomly to a different bit of rock.

[Fiend]

Anyone keen to claim a problem should be forced to submit a haiku instead, which is then assigned randomly to a different bit of rock.

The perfect solution.

[grimer]

When I was doing the grit guides I climbed lots of problems that had never been documented. I had never known of anyone doing and had no signs of having ever been climbed before.

I'd just name and grade them, never claim them. I bet a lot of them were first ascents. Many of them are really good problems.

I kinda wish now I had claimed them. But not so bothered.

This point is of little relevance.

But at least I'm using very short paragraphs.

Right?

[reeve]

So, who from the UKB collective has actually climbed there? So far, I can count Bonjoy, Grimer, JB, Cofe, Andy Popp, me, Jacqusie (?), Teaboy (?) anyone else?

Me too, although only once. I'd like it to stay undocumented for the reason Johnny Brown described (not the haiku's, the opportunity to subvert the ticking / collecting experience).

I wouldn't have a problem with light-handed documentation in principle, but I think that even the slightest partial documentation would break the seal and lead to fuller documentation.

[andy popp]

So, who from the UKB collective has actually climbed there? So far, I can count Bonjoy, Grimer, JB, Cofe, Andy Popp, me, Jacqusie (?), Teaboy (?) anyone else?

I haven't been there.

[Offwidth]

I think I was conflating Grinah Stones and Woolpacks in my chin stroking. Turns out the rock is good and leaving it out of the guide was more convenience/exhaustion, I quite like that all this handwringing is more about the guidebook team collectively reaching the ‘sod it’ stage. I’m intrigued to take a look and quite like the idea of doing it without the temptation to prior knowledge the heck out of the experience. I pay far too much attention to guides, logbooks, etc. Perhaps a small collection of haikus?

I must have dreamt the Peak area meeting where it became obvious Rockfax were putting both venues into a bouldering guide and a subsequent meet where a change of mind happened on Grinah. I was much more worried about Woolpacks as under the scrittle up there was more scrittle, if much paler..... and on a venue right next to the Pennine way, such that we might get backlash for no worthwhile bouldering gain. The summer white tracks and pale scrittly scars bear tribute to this egotism and piss off regular walkers and niche photographers alike.

I'm not sure about Grinah Stones, I guess I'd go with concensus but do like the romanticism of a high quality place you have to explore 'guidebookless'. If the concensus was some form of guide I'd certainly trust bonjoy to do his usual excellent stuff. However, once 'the genie is out of the bottle' I can't see any going back... any idea of a light touch guide will soon go, with compulsive UKC recorders and loggers. I also remember how Marc C and others tried to avoid a public topo on Blackstone and failed but there are a few other less good places on the moors I do know that did stay out of the public view (and we promised to respect that and did).

Having worked on OtM, pretty closely with Martin, there was no 'sod it' stage, as such, there was an end point (and a bit too much pressure for final editing.... a team of us cleared a thousand mistakes in a day at BMC HQ but still missed some that led to stern letters from an ex editor). Any venues not fully covered or left out of OtM were always done so because of choice, even to the point some friendships suffered as a result (the book would have been two volumes if the local obscurists had had their way.)...... some of which has been published in pdfs and even a new book almost no-one will buy. OtM remains a masterwork in my view.

[Stuart Anderson]

So, who from the UKB collective has actually climbed there? So far, I can count Bonjoy, Grimer, JB, Cofe, Andy Popp, me, Jacqusie (?), Teaboy (?) anyone else?

Me, fwiw.

Get up about four or five times a year when time off and decent weather coincide. Usually come in from the North (park off the Woodhead - Fidlers Flat) via Lady's Cross - decent trod and very little climb.

[tc]

So, who from the UKB collective has actually climbed there? So far, I can count Bonjoy, Grimer, JB, Cofe, Andy Popp, me, Jacqusie (?), Teaboy (?) anyone else?

Yep. Multiple visits, last one about 20 years ago though.

[bolehillbilly]

I had my first trip up this autumn with Bonjoy, Bonjoy Jr and 3 of the Matlock B team so had the benefits of both a big team and the knowledge.
I thought it was pretty decent and would deffo go back with a similar set up.

[BrutusTheBear]

Really interesting to follow this thread as someone who develops bouldering well away from the madding crowds of the Peak.  From an information point of view the area I mostly operate in (Exmoor Coast) has (since the late 80s) totally fallen off the rock climbing guide book radar, it is never going to suffer from too much traffic, the majority of venues take effort to get to and from, conditions can be very fickle and most of the venues are affected by the tide (limiting the time you can access them).  Exmoor is so out of the way and the nearby climbing population is tiny; there are no concerns that the masses will descend here if someone lifts the lid on an 'amazing venue'.  .....  and yet there are protagonists in the locale that got pissed when I did the now completely out of date guide for Lynmouth.  The gist being that it should all be left to allow others the experience of exploration.  On the other hand Terry Cheek (the first to complete a dry ascent of the Exmoor Coast Traverse) encouraged publishing information and promoting 'our sport'.
Well the outcome of producing a very basic guide and holding a 'meet' 15 years ago is that every now and then I might bump into a boulderer down here on holiday enjoying the delights of Lynmouth and some very enthusiastic local youngsters are exploring/ developing more.  Having recently been in touch with Martin Crocker, it was amazing to discover that he had been bouldering regularly on Exmoor from the late 90s onwards.  Hopefully, we can collate and share more info. on other venues in due course. As has been mentioned above the effort it takes to efficiently record and write stuff up should be appreciated because it is easy enough to not be arsed!
Of course the context is completely different for the Peak, the surrounding population of climbers is dense ( do both meanings apply ?) and the pressure on the environment/rock is big.  The last time I visited Burbage South  I was shocked at the state of the ground between the boulders; I had fond memories of boulders surrounded by meadow not a quagmire.  A 'busy' day at the plantation these days is a very different to a 'busy' day at the plantation in the 90s. 
I love the bouldering where I live now because it is wild, it is fickle, it is difficult and takes effort to get to, there is still loads to explore/discover, it is quiet and climbers have little to no impact.  Even with detailed guides Exmoor is very unlikely to change.  However, there are still venues I am unlikely to document because they are more suited to exploring and climbing what looks good on the day. This and the fact that the beach levels can vary from lowball above soft sand to highball above leg snapping boulders in the space of a day.  To be able to have a similar experience in the Peak, I think, is of great value..  I reckon the Peak could do with a venue that's not for folk that are only interested in something they can log, that is easy to get to, that doesn't need brushing before climbing and that can't see a line themselves in order to attempt climbing it.  Whether by luck or good judgement this venue seems to fit the bill so maybe it should maintain that status (you can't turn back once the logging starts).
(edited:coz the last bit made no sense).