[Bradders]

I wonder how many of those who think it’s alright, would feel the same. If said bunch of numbties had a rope down the route they were hoping to red point at Malham  or Kilnsey and were busy trashing it.

In short, it's none of my business and I'll just wait my turn.

I think it's a touch strong to say this is trashing the climb. It seems perfectly dry and I can't see any damaging practices going on other than being not at the level apparently required for them to just have a go.

[webbo]

It’s what they are doing with their feet. They don’t seem able to weight them properly so they pop which will wear the surface off. Ok if it’s just them but if  others feel it’s ok having seen the video.
It could get trashed.

[Adam Lincoln]

It’s what they are doing with their feet. They don’t seem able to weight them properly so they pop which will wear the surface off. Ok if it’s just them but if  others feel it’s ok having seen the video.
It could get trashed.

Its a bit of rock that no one owns and no one outside of a few climbers even care about. Can you imagine telling some one this in a pub on a friday night that doesnt climb?

[Wellsy]

It’s what they are doing with their feet. They don’t seem able to weight them properly so they pop which will wear the surface off. Ok if it’s just them but if  others feel it’s ok having seen the video.
It could get trashed.

This feels a little like "you can only climb on it if you're good" which seems somewhat arbitrary.

[joel182]

It’s what they are doing with their feet. They don’t seem able to weight them properly so they pop which will wear the surface off. Ok if it’s just them but if  others feel it’s ok having seen the video.
It could get trashed.

This feels a little like "you can only climb on it if you're good" which seems somewhat arbitrary.

I guess it's worth asking a question like "how would I feel if I broke a hold on the route?".

For me, I would only want to top rope a route like End of the Affair if I were seriously considering a headpoint ascent. Classic routes like EotA are a limited resource (a fundamentally special thing to many people due to the history & nature of the route) and they will suffer if they see too much attention.

Moreoever, I think if you are seeking to both publicize/monetize these things then you have some obligation to consider the impact of your content.

[Wellsy]

It’s what they are doing with their feet. They don’t seem able to weight them properly so they pop which will wear the surface off. Ok if it’s just them but if  others feel it’s ok having seen the video.
It could get trashed.

This feels a little like "you can only climb on it if you're good" which seems somewhat arbitrary.

I guess it's worth asking a question like "how would I feel if I broke a hold on the route?".

For me, I would only want to top rope a route like End of the Affair if I were seriously considering a headpoint ascent. Classic routes like EotA are a limited resource (a fundamentally special thing to many people due to the history & nature of the route) and they will suffer if they see too much attention.

Moreoever, I think if you are seeking to both publicize/monetize these things then you have some obligation to consider the impact of your content.

It's a fair point. I suppose I would say that I'd agree to an extent except to also say that working it on top rope with an intent to do the route free... also on top rope but not on lead is also reasonable

[Wood FT]

It’s what they are doing with their feet. They don’t seem able to weight them properly so they pop which will wear the surface off. Ok if it’s just them but if  others feel it’s ok having seen the video.
It could get trashed.

This feels a little like "you can only climb on it if you're good" which seems somewhat arbitrary.

I guess it's worth asking a question like "how would I feel if I broke a hold on the route?".

For me, I would only want to top rope a route like End of the Affair if I were seriously considering a headpoint ascent. Classic routes like EotA are a limited resource (a fundamentally special thing to many people due to the history & nature of the route) and they will suffer if they see too much attention.

Moreoever, I think if you are seeking to both publicize/monetize these things then you have some obligation to consider the impact of your content.

Well said

[Ged]

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect folk to follow unwritten norms.

If a beginner surfer turned up at a prime surf spot in amazing conditions and kept on dropping in on other people's waves despite clearly being out of their depth, it would be reasonable for an experienced surfer to explain the rules to them to make sure everyone got to enjoy the wave.

Yes it's just a wave, and people can Do what they want. But that doesn't mean there can't be social norms around it.

[SA Chris]

Topropers = SUP riders

[andy moles]

Interesting debate.

I think I more or less agree with Steve R's appliance of an equal liberty principle.

It might sound elitist to say that people should only be permitted an experience of a thing if they are good enough, but given the potential long-term effects of a free-for-all on a fragile and finite resource, and the impact it could therefore have on opportunities for others, it's actually fair. Not so much saying 'you can't do this', but promoting a sense of collective responsibility for something that is highly valued in the community.

I agree with Wellsy though that there should not be any associated obligation to lead. If you have the ability to climb it reasonably well on a top-rope with no intention of leading, that's also totally fine.

To be honest, I can't see much attraction in flailing repeatedly on something that's miles out of your league anyway, but each to their own. Maybe we should blame the pro headpointers who encourage people to project things they think are too hard for them without caveats about soft rock, or maybe just the broader malaise of incentives to promote content that's titled things like 'VS to E8 in a weekend!"

[SA Chris]

You could up it and go from "diff to E10" by dropping a rope on one at the end and having a hapless paw at the holds, just to generate the clickbait.

[abarro81]

or maybe just the broader malaise of incentives to promote content that's titled things like 'VS to E8 in a weekend!"

Am I wearing rose-tinted glasses for thinking that once upon a time climbers looked down on all that pathetic shit with distain, but now it's everywhere and climbing is just as moronic and pathetic as everything else?
The first round on my 20 most pressing questions seems to hold ever more true ("Are the new generation of climbers more stupid or just more annoying than the previous generations?"). Bet the old buggers all think that about me too though.

[Wellsy]

Tbh I'd say that climbing has become much more popular but actually that's not really the issue (99% of that popularity explosion is indoors anyway), the issue is that there are now more incentives to put up videos like that than before.

I would say that the "old guard" loved to chip routes/fuck about on rock/etc but they didn't make YouTube videos about it and there was also less of an incentive to maybe diverge from the accepted ethics in order to drive engagement.

[webbo]

Tbh I'd say that climbing has become much more popular but actually that's not really the issue (99% of that popularity explosion is indoors anyway), the issue is that there are now more incentives to put up videos like that than before.

I would say that the "old guard" loved to chip routes/fuck about on rock/etc but they didn't make YouTube videos about it and there was also less of an incentive to maybe diverge from the accepted ethics in order to drive engagement.

As one of the old guard I have never chipped a hold and I pretty sure none of my mates did either. To be honest you need to fuck right off with comments like that.

[SamT]

The issue is that there are now more incentives to put up videos like that than before.

Yep - think that's pretty spot on. I could go out and top rope something way above my ability. Pretty sure I probably did when I was just starting out. But other than the 3 sheep and three other climbers in the vacinity, nobody knew and nobody cared.
However, its the desire to film every last flipping second of your leisure time, and put it out there on youtube, with the added bonus of it being a potential income stream now thats the game changer.

I would say that the "old guard" loved to chip routes/fuck about on rock/etc

WTF - I'd say that comment is, as Webbo says, wildly wide of the mark. 

[SamT]

I agree with Wellsy though that there should not be any associated obligation to lead. If you have the ability to climb it reasonably well on a top-rope with no intention of leading, that's also totally fine.

This is an interesting point.  I've turned a corner in my life where there a whole bunch of routes E5 and upwards really that I've always thought I might leave and not top rope.  Not to spoil the onsight sort of thing.  Now, staring 50 in the face, I've come to accept that I'll never ever even contemplate setting off on the onsight, so fuck it, why not set up a top rope and enjoy the moves. 

Whats worse - 6 'headpoint' attempts falling on the gear, wearing that all too crucial rock 1 placement out.  Or a clean TRope ascent.   

[spidermonkey09]

What, are the "old guard" some sort of bastion of ethical purity then? We all know routes were chipped / created. Redhead, Livesey, various French climbers. No need to take it so personally webbo. I would be willing to bet a lot more chipping went on in the 80s than does now. 

[DAVETHOMAS90]

Sam, you old fella, I was going to try to introduce some humour about "..staring 50 in the face" but was reminded of the rest of Nietzsche's quote:

“Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.”

So much of what we go on about here, is what's significant, what isn't; who's a wad, who isn't, what's worthy of our praise and what deserves our derision.

Raising awareness of the problems, our own impact on the rock, the environment, doing what we can to protect what correctly stated, is a valuable and finite resource, is something we can all do - maybe as long as we aren't too selective in considering the part we all play in the impact of what we do.

Yes, it is really sad to see classic hard routes getting trashed, but we have a part to play in whether they are seen as something to aspire to, and how that is achieved.

It would be nice to see the lass in the video perhaps getting back on End of the Affair, and giving it a half serious go. I'm not convinced that a seed hasn't been sown 

[DAVETHOMAS90]

What, are the "old guard" some sort of bastion of ethical purity then? We all know routes were chipped / created. Redhead, Livesey, various French climbers. No need to take it so personally webbo. I would be willing to bet a lot more chipping went on in the 80s than does now. 

I'm with Webbo though here.

There's a bit of Straw Man going on, isn't there? I think the arguments can be presented in better ways than some spurious reference to misdeeds of the past. Nowadays everything just gets retro'd anyway 

[spidermonkey09]

I agree Dave, I think it's a really interesting thread and discussion. Just felt like there was a bit of "how *dare* you" energy to the response which wasnt called for.

I played on Masters Edge years ago thinking I'd never do it and don't regret it. Maybe that was wrong but it didn't feel wrong.

[webbo]

What, are the "old guard" some sort of bastion of ethical purity then? We all know routes were chipped / created. Redhead, Livesey, various French climbers. No need to take it so personally webbo. I would be willing to bet a lot more chipping went on in the 80s than does now. 

Two names and some French climbers. How does that equate to the old guard chipping every thing. Come what did we chip.

[Wellsy]

Tbh I'd say that climbing has become much more popular but actually that's not really the issue (99% of that popularity explosion is indoors anyway), the issue is that there are now more incentives to put up videos like that than before.

I would say that the "old guard" loved to chip routes/fuck about on rock/etc but they didn't make YouTube videos about it and there was also less of an incentive to maybe diverge from the accepted ethics in order to drive engagement.

As one of the old guard I have never chipped a hold and I pretty sure none of my mates did either. To be honest you need to fuck right off with comments like that.

Hey no offence meant or personal accusations made, just that a few big names have been associated with chipping and modifying in the past, or running laps on things (like if you want to respect the rock to prevent damage does lapping it as a circuit regularly count? Or is that okay because you're not on top rope you're just soloing it for the 20th time), or whatever.

Tbh I mostly meant before these things were ethically established more than anything. A lot of euro crags especially had loads of chipping going on but nobody had really established it shouldn't be done, and these days it isn't.

[duncan]

What, are the "old guard" some sort of bastion of ethical purity then? We all know routes were chipped / created. Redhead, Livesey, various French climbers. No need to take it so personally webbo. I would be willing to bet a lot more chipping went on in the 80s than does now. 

Two names and some French climbers. How does that equate to the old guard chipping every thing. Come what did we chip.

Off the top of my head, before out time:

Widdop; Caley; Ilkley eg Cow Udder, Cold Chisel, Chiseller and others.

The most infamous of our era (70s/80s) include...

Livesey: many eg Claws, Downhill Racer, Wellington Crack, Das Kapital aided and abetted by...
Pete Gomersall's Yorkshire lime FAs. He basically confessed as much in an old On The Edge interview.
Whoever chipped One Step Beyond (FA Fawcett)
Mr X (not Livesey or Fawcett but nearly as famous): Milky Way

Ed Drummond: Linden

Redhead: Manic Strain and others on slate

Paul Williams: Ride the Wild Surf.

Whoever chipped Cafe Libre (FA Andy Pollitt)

[webbo]

So some of leading lights of the old guard chipped routes in order to do the first ascent of a route.
How does that equate to my criticism of people damaging routes by top roping well above their pay grade.
Unless we were chipping established routes in order to do them.

[abarro81]

Sika is the new chipping anyway, who needs a drill when you've got a glue gun