[Bonjoy]

Right - this weekend I'll be off to make a movie of me doing all pete liveseys peak routes, in a day, one handed, wearing resoled lasers, but unicycling between them all.

This is a video I am looking forward to watching. Good luck Sam.

[Pete W]

hello folks
As someone who has lived and grown up in the Peak i have always had (and will always have) full respect for the local environment/rock/ethics and put these before my own climbing. The challenge was intended to just be a bit of fun, like some of the other Grit challenges we have (Staffordshire Nose for example), but something other people could complete wherever they were in the world.
There was some on/off dampness that morning for the first half an hour of climbing that i did and after reading the comments here I can understand peoples concerns regarding damp rock, wet shoes, chalking a foothold, etc. Considering this I have since removed the video. Look forward to seeing you all out on the crags, cheers

[Fultonius]

I notice that no one has said anything about the tick marks on Ryuichi's new problem, amazing though it is.

This may be an unpopular opinion, but...
I think there is a general conflation of using tick marks and leaving tick marks.
In my view the former is fine, if frequently ugly and overdone. The latter is when it becomes litter and objectionable.
You could argue that showing videos depicting ticks without footage of their removal at the end of the session encourages the inexperienced to use then leave ticks. Personally I'm happy enough not to see the 'brush off' footage as mandatory on every video (now and again is often enough) as it would quickly get old, tokenistic, and patronising.
I think it's a stretch to expect someone doing possibly the hardest pair of low percentage accuracy moves in the world, without something which helps their execution, something which of itself is harmless to the rock, or other people's enjoyment of it.
I think as community we are big enough to educate sensible, minimal use, rather than demand the baby is thrown out with the bathwater in all and every circumstance.

Need a brief disclaimer at the start "all chalk marks used in this video were carefully fully removed after depicted rig sendage using the latest angel lash chalk removal brush"

[andy popp]

I notice that no one has said anything about the tick marks on Ryuichi's new problem, amazing though it is.

This may be an unpopular opinion, but...

Not with me, I agree with you. And there's a degree of hypocrisy around tick marks - we've probably all contributed to turning some venues into pretty hideous perma-chalked messes, some of them very visible to the general public.

[Anti]

Why do we make such a stink about tick marks under the pretence that it's to "leave no trace"? To people outside of the climbing bubble, the tick marks are all but invisible amongst all the other chalk stained mess of holds.

Yeah they ruin beta / are confusing, but if you really care about leaving no trace stop using chalk. Otherwise it's all just the same mess, or is it all part of a larger "I don't need/use tick marks so my ascents are more valid" sort of humble bragging thing?

Edit: Hah, I see we posted similar things at the same time!

[SamT]

hello folks
As someone who has lived and grown up in the Peak i have always had (and will always have) full respect for the local environment/rock/ethics and put these before my own climbing. The challenge was intended to just be a bit of fun, like some of the other Grit challenges we have (Staffordshire Nose for example), but something other people could complete wherever they were in the world.
There was some on/off dampness that morning for the first half an hour of climbing that i did and after reading the comments here I can understand peoples concerns regarding damp rock, wet shoes, chalking a foothold, etc. Considering this I have since removed the video. Look forward to seeing you all out on the crags, cheers

Nice one for posting up Pete. 

[cheque]

Why do we make such a stink about tick marks under the pretence that it's to "leave no trace"?

Surely the distinction is that tick marks (particularly big ones) are avoidable chalk deposits? The ideal is to use as little as possible so leaving lines that mark how to climb is obviously wack. Pretty sure no-one who frowns on tick marks thinks the rocks would be chalk-free without them.

If anyone wants to put their money where their mouth is with preserving the Peak crag environment I noticed on a video the other day that there’s a big ugly graffiti tag at the bottom of Superbloc at Gardom’s that could do with being removed. “You’ll never believe what these climbers did to make their local crags nicer ” is the sort of clickbait YouTube content I’d be willing to Like, Subscribe and possibly even Ring That Bell for. 

[36chambers]

following on, can someone start a "who can pick up the most litter during a day at the crag" youtube challenge. Thanks.

[Bradders]

far less impactful to the rock than a sieging aspirant trying to push their grade.

NSFW  :

Ben's Groove must be fucked by now 

Knew someone would bite

The thing is though I climbed 2 grades harder 4 years ago!

 

[36chambers]

far less impactful to the rock than a sieging aspirant trying to push their grade.

NSFW  :

Ben's Groove must be fucked by now 

Knew someone would bite

The thing is though I climbed 2 grades harder 4 years ago!

 

a drop off or a topper?

[User deactivated.]

far less impactful to the rock than a sieging aspirant trying to push their grade.

NSFW  :

Ben's Groove must be fucked by now 

Knew someone would bite

The thing is though I climbed 2 grades harder 4 years ago!

 

I'm just punching up as all good comedy should. If I had your climbing CV I'd be happily retired by now 

[Anti]

Why do we make such a stink about tick marks under the pretence that it's to "leave no trace"?

Surely the distinction is that tick marks (particularly big ones) are avoidable chalk deposits? The ideal is to use as little as possible so leaving lines that mark how to climb is obviously wack. Pretty sure no-one who frowns on tick marks thinks the rocks would be chalk-free without them.

I guess it all starts to feel a bit silly, arguing over how much chalk amounts to acceptable use in our niche hobby. What I think I'm trying to say is that to people who aren't climbers we're already ruining the aesthetics of the countryside with /any/ chalk use, it's just within our bubble we've drawn a line over which we can throw shade on other people. All hobbies have something like that, when I used to race bicycles it was hairy legs / mismatched clothing. I'm sure lots of hobbies have their faux pas to agonise. Otherwise we'd just have to settle on whether people are better than us but it can be hard on the fragile ego.

[Wellsy]

As a shit climber I like it when people leave little ticks for the footholds cos it saves me getting out my electron microscope to find the least most awful ripple on a piece of gritstone to blindly trust.

[DAVETHOMAS90]

hello folks
As someone who has lived and grown up in the Peak i have always had (and will always have) full respect for the local environment/rock/ethics and put these before my own climbing. The challenge was intended to just be a bit of fun, like some of the other Grit challenges we have (Staffordshire Nose for example), but something other people could complete wherever they were in the world.
There was some on/off dampness that morning for the first half an hour of climbing that i did and after reading the comments here I can understand peoples concerns regarding damp rock, wet shoes, chalking a foothold, etc. Considering this I have since removed the video. Look forward to seeing you all out on the crags, cheers

Nice one for posting up Pete. 

Yes, I'll second that. 

[DAVETHOMAS90]

I notice that no one has said anything about the tick marks on Ryuichi's new problem, amazing though it is.

This may be an unpopular opinion, but...

etc

I think as community we are big enough to educate sensible, minimal use, rather than demand the baby is thrown out with the bathwater in all and every circumstance.

But my point BJ is that we don't. We use other people's indiscretions as something to have a go at, and we're very selective with it - which is the allusion I was making wrt the comments about Pete's vid. 

Anyway, Broomgrove is often in a right state. Must be a real eyesore for anyone parked up for a bit of mid-afternoon drug dealing.. 

[Steve R]

Fuck, it seems I'm now a victim of youtube's recommendation algorithms optimising for outrage as far as climbing videos are concerned.  It knows. Every visit guaranteed to make life more miserable, can't not click to watch, probably no escape....
Am I losing it or was there a time in relatively recent history when you'd get crucified (and you'd know and expect to get crucified and not just by Fiend) for uploading a video like this:

https://youtu.be/CqLM3TP2xP4?t=405

Pious whinging over, what's the solution(s)?  Above channel I think will be monetised (only just) and Epic TV and 3rd Rock mentioned in the vid description...  Time to somehow establish (incredibly boring, likely patronising) norms and protocol where any financially incentivised self or brand promotional videos featuring outdoor climbing have to first encourage sound ethics and good behaviour?  A climbing youtube equivalent to footballers taking the knee?   Maybe that could help shift the cultural climate to a point where a queue of punters scrabbling and kicking the fuck out of End of the Affair isn't generally regarded as ok.  Let alone filming and uploading it.  Any other ideas?  Being a miserable git complaining on climbing fora? Seemed to work last time but potentially akin to trying to bail out the titantic with a thimble if the cultural trajectory and inertia isn't impacted/addressed.
Or maybe it's a lost cause and time to just let it go?  'Allow' people to do what they want and accept that the odd classic is going to get trashed by the unimaginative and move on...

[Paul B]

3rd Rock mentioned in the vid description... 

3rd rock have form in this dept.

[Bradders]

Fuck, it seems I'm now a victim of youtube's recommendation algorithms optimising for outrage as far as climbing videos are concerned.  It knows. Every visit guaranteed to make life more miserable, can't not click to watch, probably no escape....
Am I losing it or was there a time in relatively recent history when you'd get crucified (and you'd know and expect to get crucified and not just by Fiend) for uploading a video like this:

https://youtu.be/CqLM3TP2xP4?t=405

Pious whinging over, what's the solution(s)?  Above channel I think will be monetised (only just) and Epic TV and 3rd Rock mentioned in the vid description...  Time to somehow establish (incredibly boring, likely patronising) norms and protocol where any financially incentivised self or brand promotional videos featuring outdoor climbing have to first encourage sound ethics and good behaviour?  A climbing youtube equivalent to footballers taking the knee?   Maybe that could help shift the cultural climate to a point where a queue of punters scrabbling and kicking the fuck out of End of the Affair isn't generally regarded as ok.  Let alone filming and uploading it.  Any other ideas?  Being a miserable git complaining on climbing fora? Seemed to work last time but potentially akin to trying to bail out the titantic with a thimble if the cultural trajectory and inertia isn't impacted/addressed.
Or maybe it's a lost cause and time to just let it go?  'Allow' people to do what they want and accept that the odd classic is going to get trashed by the unimaginative and move on...

Really struggling to understand what the problem is with anything in that video.

Okay they are clearly not going to be leading End of the Affair any time soon but why should that stop them top roping it?

Otherwise they've just gone climbing on a couple of beautiful days, and produced a very boring video about it.

[Adam Lincoln]

Fuck, it seems I'm now a victim of youtube's recommendation algorithms optimising for outrage as far as climbing videos are concerned.  It knows. Every visit guaranteed to make life more miserable, can't not click to watch, probably no escape....
Am I losing it or was there a time in relatively recent history when you'd get crucified (and you'd know and expect to get crucified and not just by Fiend) for uploading a video like this:

https://youtu.be/CqLM3TP2xP4?t=405

Pious whinging over, what's the solution(s)?  Above channel I think will be monetised (only just) and Epic TV and 3rd Rock mentioned in the vid description...  Time to somehow establish (incredibly boring, likely patronising) norms and protocol where any financially incentivised self or brand promotional videos featuring outdoor climbing have to first encourage sound ethics and good behaviour?  A climbing youtube equivalent to footballers taking the knee?   Maybe that could help shift the cultural climate to a point where a queue of punters scrabbling and kicking the fuck out of End of the Affair isn't generally regarded as ok.  Let alone filming and uploading it.  Any other ideas?  Being a miserable git complaining on climbing fora? Seemed to work last time but potentially akin to trying to bail out the titantic with a thimble if the cultural trajectory and inertia isn't impacted/addressed.
Or maybe it's a lost cause and time to just let it go?  'Allow' people to do what they want and accept that the odd classic is going to get trashed by the unimaginative and move on...

Really struggling to understand what the problem is with anything in that video.

Okay they are clearly not going to be leading End of the Affair any time soon but why should that stop them top roping it?

Otherwise they've just gone climbing on a couple of beautiful days, and produced a very boring video about it.

I agree with Bradders here. Sadly yes it may lead to faster erosion and maybe more educating on that front and  could change attitude to trying stuff if its way above your lead level. But, we don't own the rock and these guys were having fun and can do that all day everyday on all the classics at Curbar should they wish.

[Steve R]

Fair enough, maybe my view is towards an extreme end of the 'what's an acceptable approach' spectrum.  Rather than trying to claim ownership of anything or be overly authoritarian I think it comes down to cultural norms on what constitutes a good approach and attitude.  It's these cultural norms which I sense have shifted / are shifting for the worse.  Maybe this happened a while ago, I didn't notice and am only just catching up.  In my world (and the climbing world I've known for ~20yrs) for a route like End of the Affair on a softer rock type like grit, if you want to climb on it you should be either aspiring to flash it or, if you're not quite at that level, you consider doing a few careful and precise top ropes with a view to headpointing it.  If you're not at that level you shouldn't really be on it.  Whilst ultimately, I'm all for people doing what they want, again, it should be subject to a kind of rawlsian equal liberty principle.  For me, the approach and attitude in the video is well outside both the cultural norms and this imagined equal liberty principle.   Add to that the fact that people are making money out of it and I apparently get sufficiently annoyed to start publicly complaining about it. 

[Wellsy]

Just out of genuine curiosity, how do you view things like the Wide Boyz doing their videos messing around on master's edge? Because I suppose the makers of that vid could point to those videos saying "well this is what the locals get up to, is what we're doing any worse?"

(I personally don't have an issue with either for the record, I'm just asking)

[Paul B]

I agree with Bradders here. Sadly yes it may lead to faster erosion and maybe more educating on that front and  could change attitude to trying stuff if its way above your lead level. But, we don't own the rock and these guys were having fun and can do that all day everyday on all the classics at Curbar should they wish.

Do you think people watching will be nuanced enough not to do the same on something that might for instance rely on a crucial pebble? I'm personally not so sure which makes videos like this feel a touch uncomfortable.

[Steve R]

Just out of genuine curiosity, how do you view things like the Wide Boyz doing their videos messing around on master's edge? Because I suppose the makers of that vid could point to those videos saying "well this is what the locals get up to, is what we're doing any worse?"

(I personally don't have an issue with either for the record, I'm just asking)

Apposite example.  As per the last bit of text of my first post of this thread, I think they should leave it well alone.  Primarily for exactly the reason you highlight.

[webbo]

I wonder how many of those who think it’s alright, would feel the same. If said bunch of numbties had a rope down the route they were hoping to red point at Malham  or Kilnsey and were busy trashing it.

[Wellsy]

Just out of genuine curiosity, how do you view things like the Wide Boyz doing their videos messing around on master's edge? Because I suppose the makers of that vid could point to those videos saying "well this is what the locals get up to, is what we're doing any worse?"

(I personally don't have an issue with either for the record, I'm just asking)

Apposite example.  As per the last bit of text of my first post of this thread, I think they should leave it well alone.  Primarily for exactly the reason you highlight.

Fair enough. I can definitely appreciate your reason