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Benchmarks to help create a training plan (or just give a bit more focus!) (Read 17936 times)

Stu Littlefair

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Although, as a follow up I should note that it won't answer the question posed by the OP; which was along the lines of "what marks do I need to hit, if I want to do grade X". In that case, JWI's benchmarks are much more useful than anything you can do on a fingerboard.

It does rather beg the question though, since it would take a few days to do all those tests, why not try an 8a instead and see if you can do it?

Fultonius

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Although, as a follow up I should note that it won't answer the question posed by the OP; which was along the lines of "what marks do I need to hit, if I want to do grade X". In that case, JWI's benchmarks are much more useful than anything you can do on a fingerboard.

It does rather beg the question though, since it would take a few days to do all those tests, why not try an 8a instead and see if you can do it?

I guess the idea is, that it's easy to go and fail on an 8a - but why?

Doing the tests might help tease out which aspect is problematic. Like most have said, you'd think by the 8a stage you knew what your weaknesses were, but I suppose these change over time and you might not be that honest with yourself?

For me, I'd guess I'm off the "8a in 5 or so tries" mark, more like 7c, and 7c+ would be 10-15 tries I'd guess.

I would, at a guess, manage this:

1. (Lactate treshold test/Endurance) Climb a 7a of 30 moves 10 times with 1 minute rest between the laps
2. (Anaerobic capacity at 80% of max/Strength endurance) Climb a 7b of 30 moves 6 times with 8 min rest between the laps
3. (Anaerobic power at 85% of max/Strength endurance) Climb an 7c of 30 moves 2 times with 30 min rest between the laps. More likely at 7b+
4. (Strength) Do a technically basic 7B of about 5-6 moves in five tries 7A+ deffo, 7B would be pushing it.

I might be wrong on the first one....

Stu Littlefair

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Maybe, although the point I was trying to make is that there are possibly better ways to work out why you will fail to climb 8a than doing JWI's tests.

However, what I really do like about JWI's proposed benchmarks is that I don't think you actually have to do them. As you've amply demonstrated most people have some feel for how they'd do if they did try them. Maybe they work best as a thought experiment - a well thought out structure to help you assess your strengths and weaknesses without having to benchmark?

IanP

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It does rather beg the question though, since it would take a few days to do all those tests, why not try an 8a instead and see if you can do it?

 :lol:, that was one of my first thought. The test's look in the right ballpark (at lower levels for me) but really just say how good you are at climbing with caveats around personal strengths / energy systems - they could work equally the other way, give your in a day grade and can predict likely average ability on endurance/power endurance/strength etc, 

petejh

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However, what I really do like about JWI's proposed benchmarks is that I don't think you actually have to do them. As you've amply demonstrated most people have some feel for how they'd do if they did try them. Maybe they work best as a thought experiment - a well thought out structure to help you assess your strengths and weaknesses without having to benchmark?

To eliminate self-delusion you could take the average answers, against JWI's benchmarks, of a number of people who know you well (in climbing terms. Maybe don't ask your gran).

But then isn't that essentially what something like Lattice is doing - a neutral observer testing you against various benchmarks as an analogue to real climbing? Some subtle salesmanship there agent Littlefair. :ninja:

jwi

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Although, as a follow up I should note that it won't answer the question posed by the OP; which was along the lines of "what marks do I need to hit, if I want to do grade X". In that case, JWI's benchmarks are much more useful than anything you can do on a fingerboard.

It does rather beg the question though, since it would take a few days to do all those tests, why not try an 8a instead and see if you can do it?

I completely agree. I prefer to find out if where I am on the strength <> endurance scale by trying routes on various ends of the scale. It is easy for me to say though because I have access to quite a lot of routes where I live.

But also, I have found that some climbers have very strange ideas about why they fail on routes. I have heard people who boulder 8A claim, with a straight face, that they fail on 7b+s because they are not strong enough. Also I have seen the opposite where people who hang out on small crimpers, putting in nests of ever more redundant tiny wires before going up and down and up and down on a trivial boulder problem claim that they failed on the routes because they lack stamina (to hang out another half an hour one pressumes)

duncan

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Maybe, although the point I was trying to make is that there are possibly better ways to work out why you will fail to climb 8a than doing JWI's tests.

However, what I really do like about JWI's proposed benchmarks is that I don't think you actually have to do them. As you've amply demonstrated most people have some feel for how they'd do if they did try them. Maybe they work best as a thought experiment - a well thought out structure to help you assess your strengths and weaknesses without having to benchmark?

Mostly this. I know I'm short on bouldering power but have plenty of long endurance for the level I'm aiming at without doing the tests. The power-endurance benchmarks are less clear to me and I'll give them a go next time I'm at the wall.

It does rather beg the question though, since it would take a few days to do all those tests, why not try an 8a 7b|+ instead and see if you can do it?

You can do both. Triangulation can be useful. And what jwi says.


csl

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The power-endurance benchmarks are less clear to me and I'll give them a go next time I'm at the wall.

Unsolicited feedback below

NSFW  :
Perhaps the "(Anaerobic power at 85% of max/Strength endurance)" benchmark would capture it, but one thing I've noticed from your sessions on Road Rage is that you hit a bit of a wall where you stop being able to have good working goes relatively quickly. I wonder if working on being able to do more only-just-submaximal boulders in a session would allow you to have more goes in a day, learn a bit more about the movement, and be more likely to succeed as a result.

jwi

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*JWI's test 1 is the clearest indication of this to me. I'd place myself in the "quick 8c" area, but the idea of doing 10 laps of 7c on the minute horrifies me - if we are talking about a 30 move 7c indoors. Outdoors it ranges from plain impossible to something that wouldn't make me break a sweat, depending on the 7c.

Question 1: can you do quick rp of indoor 8c? If so, but 7c feels hard for LT2, I would guess you are not that solid on 8b onsights? Like, you do not do half of the 8b you try onsight?

(And obviously a half grade here or there is not the end of the world. It is always possible to compensate relative weaknesses with relative strengths.)

Stu Littlefair

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There aren’t many indoor 8cs in the UK! When I’ve tried the occasional indoor 8b+ routes they’ve taken 2-3 goes. You’re quite right that I’m not solid on 8b onsight - I’ve never onsighted 8b.

The conclusion you’d reach from your tests is that I lack aerobic fitness. However, a lactate threshold or critical force test on a finger board gives quite a different answer - on those I do reasonably well.

From which I’ve deduced that I have good local endurance in the forearms but quite poor movement efficiency, particularly under stress.

This logical pathway is what makes me think a more structured test could sometimes have value.

Those who’ve climbed with me probably know best which picture is correct.

KeithScarlett

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Firstly, thanks all for the replies, really appreciated and lots to consider  :coffee:

It seems I might have got overly excited about The Self-Coached Climber benchmarks i.e. as jwi points out https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,31635.msg649661.html#msg649661, when you actually look at the detail it is hazy in parts (how many moves, amount of rest and so on) and these things matter! It seems too however that people question the usefulness of the Lattice Training approach: how much can actually be extrapolated from something so specific.

I really like this https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,31635.msg649667.html#msg649667 from jwi. I like the straightforwardness and coherence (or at least it seems to correspond to my experience). But, and this maybe goes back to my original point, I'd be confident of achieving all the benchmarks (perhaps with the exception of the 2nd test: 7b x 6 with 8 min rest between laps) but I under-perform on 8a (and redpointing one in 5 tries currently seems well beyond me).

As Stu points out though https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,31635.msg649727.html#msg649727 jwi's suggested benchmarks may have snags too.

jwi: You mention a survey you did and a friend's use of the benchmarks in clinics; how robust are the tests?

I don't really know where to go with this. I could just try something and see what happens, be that testing myself against suggested benchmarks or perhaps going with my feel for what would be worthwhile (fingerboarding, campussing and something anaerobic)? But I think I do better if I have something structured, especially where I see that as building towards route objectives.

I know I don't want a winter of going to the wall and trying hard but being a bit headless  :wall:

Stu Littlefair

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If you feel you could do all of JWIs tests then you’re probably quite well rounded as a climber. The value of the tests is in identifying particular weaknesses to work on. If you are well rounded, there’s a lot to be said for a structured but balanced approach.

The classic “weekend warrior”approach of Tue/Thur sessions where you do one exercise for each of strength/ancap/aerocap could suit you well. Especially so if you can split your day and do the strength stuff in the morning?

Having said that, if you can do all those tests you really should be pretty solid on 8a. It might be worth asking the following:

- is the 7B you are thinking of in a similar style to the the 8a cruxes you try?

- do you have performance anxiety issues, like self-sabotaging mistakes on RP?

AJM

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Anyway, here is my opinion for sport climbing benchmarking.

Suppose that you want to be able to redpoint most 8a reasonably quick (about 5 tries or so in any style from cruxy to long stamina plod) then you should be able to:
1. (Lactate treshold test/Endurance) Climb a 7a of 30 moves 10 times with 1 minute rest between the laps
2. (Anaerobic capacity at 80% of max/Strength endurance) Climb a 7b of 30 moves 6 times with 8 min rest between the laps
3. (Anaerobic power at 85% of max/Strength endurance) Climb an 7c of 30 moves 2 times with 30 min rest between the laps.
4. (Strength) Do a technically basic 7B of about 5-6 moves in five tries.

Translate for other levels. 8c climbers (quick redpoint) should have the levels 7c/8a/8b/8A

Personally I am disproportionally strong on test 3, spot on on test 1 and 2 and substandard on test 4.

How would you expect the onsight grade versus "5 goes in any style" quick redpoints grade to compare, out of curiosity?

Perhaps it is a sign that I am not very well rounded, but I look at them and think for me they would be reasonably close given that my onsights are likely to play to my strengths and doing things in any style in circa 5 goes puts focus onto my weaknesses. Thinking back to when I was sport climbing most:
- I have done a number of 7b+s and a handful of 7cs with that few goes, and apparently a 7c+ once too, but certainly at 7c taking more than 5 goes wouldn't feel crazy. So I assume I should call my target grade probably 7b+ (fwiw I have done an 8a and a few 7c+ taking longer over them)
- my max onsight grade is 7b and I had a couple of near misses on 7b+ (i.e. the sort of thing where enough rolls of the dice might net success eventually)

Slightly curious as to whether that is a greater than or average level of un-roundedness, or perhaps whether I am misinterpreting the levels (in particular how much of a weakness still ought to go within 5 goes).

Duncan campbell

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Firstly, thanks all for the replies, really appreciated and lots to consider  :coffee:

It seems I might have got overly excited about The Self-Coached Climber benchmarks i.e. as jwi points out https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,31635.msg649661.html#msg649661, when you actually look at the detail it is hazy in parts (how many moves, amount of rest and so on) and these things matter! It seems too however that people question the usefulness of the Lattice Training approach: how much can actually be extrapolated from something so specific.

I really like this https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,31635.msg649667.html#msg649667 from jwi. I like the straightforwardness and coherence (or at least it seems to correspond to my experience). But, and this maybe goes back to my original point, I'd be confident of achieving all the benchmarks (perhaps with the exception of the 2nd test: 7b x 6 with 8 min rest between laps) but I under-perform on 8a (and redpointing one in 5 tries currently seems well beyond me).

As Stu points out though https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,31635.msg649727.html#msg649727 jwi's suggested benchmarks may have snags too.

jwi: You mention a survey you did and a friend's use of the benchmarks in clinics; how robust are the tests?

I don't really know where to go with this. I could just try something and see what happens, be that testing myself against suggested benchmarks or perhaps going with my feel for what would be worthwhile (fingerboarding, campussing and something anaerobic)? But I think I do better if I have something structured, especially where I see that as building towards route objectives.

I know I don't want a winter of going to the wall and trying hard but being a bit headless  :wall:

I guess if you feel you could do all of jwi's tests but wouldn't class yourself as an 8a climber then there is obviously something else at play here, and so it might be "headless" to be even looking down the physical avenue.

I don't know you well, but I have seen you climb on odd occasions, and have noticed your UKC logs.

From what I can remember you were technically a good climber but (please dont get offended by this) I'd say it seems like your head is what holds you back. I kind of remember you lacking a bit of killer instinct, as in the ability to fudge a sequence but grit your teeth and try and get through it anyway. Your UKC logbook supports this. I don't know you well enough to say whether you have a fear of falling or not. But it may be another thing worth considering.

Once again, I hope I havent caused any offence and I may well be well off the mark as I don't know you very well at all - and havent seen you climb in years!

Obviously a bit of training won't hurt, but maybe there are lower hanging fruit that could yield way better results?

Hope you get to where you want to be - maybe catch you at the crag next year,

Dunc

IanP

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How would you expect the onsight grade versus "5 goes in any style" quick redpoints grade to compare, out of curiosity?

Perhaps it is a sign that I am not very well rounded, but I look at them and think for me they would be reasonably close given that my onsights are likely to play to my strengths and doing things in any style in circa 5 goes puts focus onto my weaknesses. Thinking back to when I was sport climbing most:
- I have done a number of 7b+s and a handful of 7cs with that few goes, and apparently a 7c+ once too, but certainly at 7c taking more than 5 goes wouldn't feel crazy. So I assume I should call my target grade probably 7b+ (fwiw I have done an 8a and a few 7c+ taking longer over them)
- my max onsight grade is 7b and I had a couple of near misses on 7b+ (i.e. the sort of thing where enough rolls of the dice might net success eventually)

Slightly curious as to whether that is a greater than or average level of un-roundedness, or perhaps whether I am misinterpreting the levels (in particular how much of a weakness still ought to go within 5 goes).

You sound extremely similar to me - done plenty of 7b+s in a session (my session fitness isn't great so that would be less than 5 goes), 7c usually takes a bit longer (typically 2-3 sessions when fit but could be longer), done a a few 7c+s and 2-3 (depending on grade disputes) 8as which have required significantly more commitment.   Best onsight is 7b (plus one dodgy 7b+), mostly abroad plus a couple in UK, certainly fail to os 7b significantly more often than I succeed though.     

Fultonius

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How would you expect the onsight grade versus "5 goes in any style" quick redpoints grade to compare, out of curiosity?

Perhaps it is a sign that I am not very well rounded, but I look at them and think for me they would be reasonably close given that my onsights are likely to play to my strengths and doing things in any style in circa 5 goes puts focus onto my weaknesses. Thinking back to when I was sport climbing most:
- I have done a number of 7b+s and a handful of 7cs with that few goes, and apparently a 7c+ once too, but certainly at 7c taking more than 5 goes wouldn't feel crazy. So I assume I should call my target grade probably 7b+ (fwiw I have done an 8a and a few 7c+ taking longer over them)
- my max onsight grade is 7b and I had a couple of near misses on 7b+ (i.e. the sort of thing where enough rolls of the dice might net success eventually)

Slightly curious as to whether that is a greater than or average level of un-roundedness, or perhaps whether I am misinterpreting the levels (in particular how much of a weakness still ought to go within 5 goes).

Sounds like quite a similar level to me. I'd say, outdoors I:

- Usually onsight 7a
- Sometimes onsight 7a+
- have onsighted 2 x 7bs (not actually tried to onsight many to be fair)
- done some 7cs in a few goes, and 7c+ (x2) took me a couple of sessions.
- done one 8a that took 7 sessions (and it's scraping the barrel low end 8a)

Indoors: always onsight 7a
usually osight 7a+
often onsight 7b
have onsighted 7b+

Being based in Scotland and mainly being a trad climber, I have done waaay more mileage on plastic that outdoor sport. I reckon I could nudge most of the outdoor stuff except maybe the 8a end just with getting out for a long Spanish trip ;-)

I find doing things "in 5 goes" REALLY hard. Basically, for me it's onsight, 1st RP or then it usually falls over into multiple sessions.

Fultonius

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Hope you get to where you want to be - maybe catch you at the crag next year,

Dunc

Would love for someone to give me some observational insights like that  :great:

abarro81

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I'm the same Andy - I'd say 8b+ is my "consistently hope to do in 5 tries or less across a variety of styles", and it's also my absolute onsight/flash max... And of course there's the occasional one at that grade I can't even do the moves on. Grades eh?!

petejh

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Keith, I know you somewhat as a climber from climbing with you bits over the years, I know what I'd say if you were to ask other people what holds you back from quickly rp'ing, say, an 8a in 5 goes*. Hint, it isn't fitness or strength!

* I'll share for the cyber Monday low price of £18.99



edit: I was going to pm you privately but just noticed Duncan's post.. he's said it spot on. I've always thought on routes you lack the killer instinct to keep fighting and get it done, instead too often giving in if things don't go smoothly. Searching out someone/some resource for training in how to have more of a battling mentality might be useful. Perhaps not going full Ben Cossey, but a little bit. You're fit enough, strong enough and technically good enough to *onsight* 8a with not much extra physical conditioning, if you wanted it enough, let alone rp in 5 goes. Said with best intent  :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

« Last Edit: November 29, 2021, 11:08:04 pm by petejh »

IanP

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edit: I was going to pm you privately but just noticed Duncan's post.. he's said it spot on. I've always thought on routes you lack the killer instinct to keep fighting and get it done, instead too often giving in if things don't go smoothly. Searching out someone/some resource for training in how to have more of a battling mentality might be useful. Perhaps not going full Ben Cossey, but a little bit. You're fit enough, strong enough and technically good enough to *onsight* 8a with not much extra physical conditioning, if you wanted it enough, let alone rp in 5 goes. Said with best intent  :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

I think this is a decent point in general - the ability to try really hard is an often underrated aspect of climbing.  It's something that doesn't come naturally to me and I need to consciously work at trying to access that type of mentality compared to some of my climbing partners who are much better at pulling it out when going gets difficult.

abarro81

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I don't really know where to go with this. [...] I think I do better if I have something structured, especially where I see that as building towards route objectives.

I know I don't want a winter of going to the wall and trying hard but being a bit headless  :wall:

I read your post as you saying that without a clear physical area of weakness your training will be headless, but there's no reason for that to be the case. As Stu said:
If you are well rounded, there’s a lot to be said for a structured but balanced approach.
You can have a structured and well planned approach to training even if your goal is simply to move everything up a level. It might be harder to achieve than with a clear weakness, but in many ways it's an easier plan to write as it's a nice "classic" balance of strength (boulder, plus maybe campus/hangs depending on time, injuries and facilities), plus an cap and aero cap with aero pow/an pow coming in later on.

It sounds like killer instinct/"hitting the kill switch" is key here - that's maybe not the easiest thing to train, but it does imply to me that it would be worth replicating trying to do that as part of your sessions even at the expense of the physical quality of the session. Building in some time flashing boulders or doing circuits you don't have dialled might be worthwhile? Anything where you have to sit down and consciously engage focused try-hard mode before pulling on has surely got to help. Also remember to "let yourself get lucky" - I remember Steve Mac saying about one climber "X doesn't let himself get lucky", i.e. they always said take or dropped off when things went badly. This can be sensible in the odd situation, but usually it's always best to keep fighting to see if you get lucky.;.

jwi

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I think that there is a lot to be said for training strength endurance on lead (with a good attentive belayer). A climber can teach themselves to go all in and accept that they will fall off without any control, pumped out of their mind. A lot of climbers just say take when they could clearly climb another 10 moves. I obviously do not know if this apply to OP, but if it does, training PE on lead is a proven remedy. Preferably with a partner who mock them endlessly if they say take our jump off voluntarily

duncan

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The power-endurance benchmarks are less clear to me and I'll give them a go next time I'm at the wall.

Unsolicited feedback below


Perhaps the "(Anaerobic power at 85% of max/Strength endurance)" benchmark would capture it, but one thing I've noticed from your sessions on Road Rage is that you hit a bit of a wall where you stop being able to have good working goes relatively quickly. I wonder if working on being able to do more only-just-submaximal boulders in a session would allow you to have more goes in a day, learn a bit more about the movement, and be more likely to succeed as a result.


This is excellent feedback and so true. It's always been the case to some extent and a summer of mostly trad. climbing hasn't helped. It was interesting climbing with Simon: there was a difference in what we were capable of doing on flash/onsight goes but it wasn’t huge (small sample size). However there was a massive gulf when it came to capacity for working routes. We become what we do.

I’ve been vaguely aware of this in the past but when I’ve tried to increase the work volume I've tended to get injured. My long-term plan to address this has been to do a bunch of fairly non-specific conditioning and some max. effort fingerboarding to nudge my strength up a bit but also increase my tolerance to more specific training. The more specific bouldering phase will start as soon as I get over this bloody cold. I’ll be trying to increase the volume at that nearly-but-not-quite max. and taking a closer look at the amount of time I spend resting.

I also notice I run out of gas very markedly around the 60-90s mark of trying pretty hard (?80%) so I’m interested in jwi’s various timed tests. Thoughts on this welcome!


What are your goals?

What are your strengths and weaknesses?

Would focusing on technique or mental game be more beneficial?

I don't think you've said what your goal are Keith?

abarro81

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Preferably with a partner who mock them endlessly if they say take our jump off voluntarily
:goodidea: Stuff like this is, in my opinion, where you want a climbing partner who will give you shit rather than give you sympathy when you wimp out and say take or drop off while 1ft above the bolt rather than pushing on. (Unless you are really terrified, where a more gradual transition into things might be required)

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Preferably with a partner who mock them endlessly if they say take our jump off voluntarily
:goodidea: Stuff like this is, in my opinion, where you want a climbing partner who will give you shit rather than give you sympathy when you wimp out and say take or drop off while 1ft above the bolt rather than pushing on. (Unless you are really terrified, where a more gradual transition into things might be required)

All I can say is - don't try to be that guy when belaying your other half of she's not asked for it.........

 

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