[DAVETHOMAS90]

I think this is where it gets difficult.

7c+ was always considered the cut-off/top end for E6, but that would be for sport - with other factors coming into play for the E7.

It's not a fixed line, with the factors determining an on-sight of something like Master's Wall being different to that with a route like Strawberries (or The Phoenix). Having all your gear sorted for a route like Phoenix will place the focus on physicality, rather than the overall.

I'm still inclined to think that when we say E7, we're really referring to a level of difficulty/uncertainty/boldness/risk.

[Fiend]

I'm very tempted but it's particularly difficult if you try and narrow down the exact style of ascent. Maybe if we could work out some easy to judge criteria for inclusion on the list?

It could definitely be hammered out by knowledgeable chaps and chapesses on here.

1. Conventional onsight flash - bottom to top first go (downclimbing allowed ofc this isn;t fucking UKC) with just the knowledge from guidebooks and whatever you can glean with your own eyes.

2. Conventional beta flash - bottom to top first go, with knowledge gained from watching someone and/or talking to someone about the route.

3. Grey area when it comes to advanced information beta-flashes like Keen Youth on Muy Caliente ("gamma flash"?)

4. Onsight ground-up - bottom to top after however many attempts, with with just the knowledge from guidebooks and whatever you can glean with your own eyes.

5. Beta ground-up -  bottom to top after however many attempts, with knowledge gained from watching someone and/or talking to someone about the route.

6. Additional grey area when it comes to leaving gear in place etc.

7. Pads blah blah fucking pads whatever.

[andy popp]

4 can definitely be more challenging and satisfying than 2 and 3.

[Fiend]

And! Most excitingly, once that list is done, we can do a nice table, year upon year, showing:

Improvements in physical standards:

Total sport redpoints 9a and above
How many people redpointed >9a
Total sport flashes 8b and above
How many people flashed >8b
Total boulders 8B and above
How many people bouldered >8B
Total boulder flashes 8A and above
How many people flashed >8A

Total headpoints E9 and above
How many people headpointed >E9

Total trad onsights E7 and above
How many people onsighted >E7

(add in ground ups and flashes if needed)

Then we can have a happy cheery view how progression in sport / boulder performance AND the general amount of people climbing at higher levels has corresponded to exactly how much of a progression in onsight trad climbing 

[jwi]

There are very few countries where there are massive amounts of single pitch trad. Especially if you discount routes that mix bolts and natural pro as trad. There are simply very few safe 8c trad routes for good climbers to throw themselves on. (Safe 8b+/8c is a type of route that I from extrapolating personal experience would expect climbers like Adam Ondra to have a decent chance to onsight if climbing with a full rack and fiddling with gear). If I understand correctly safe 8c is E9 and spicy 8c is E10?

[Steve Crowe]

Mike Owen climbed Hollow Man in 1990 on sight. All his ascents are visible on UKC

[petejh]

It could definitely be hammered out by knowledgeable chaps and chapesses on here.

1. Conventional onsight flash - bottom to top first go (downclimbing allowed ofc this isn;t fucking UKC) with just the knowledge from guidebooks and whatever you can glean with your own eyes.

2. Conventional beta flash - bottom to top first go, with knowledge gained from watching someone and/or talking to someone about the route.

3. Grey area when it comes to advanced information beta-flashes like Keen Youth on Muy Caliente ("gamma flash"?)

4. Onsight ground-up - bottom to top after however many attempts, with with just the knowledge from guidebooks and whatever you can glean with your own eyes.

5. Beta ground-up -  bottom to top after however many attempts, with knowledge gained from watching someone and/or talking to someone about the route.

6. Additional grey area when it comes to leaving gear in place etc.

7. Pads blah blah fucking pads whatever.

^  of E8 and above.

 

[remus]

If I understand correctly safe 8c is E9 and spicy 8c is E10?

In practice that's probably a little harsh. For E9: easy but dangerous is ~7c (Rare Lichen, Indian Face) and hard but safe is 8b/+ (Mission Impossible). E10: 8a+ to 8c+ or so.

[Ged]

I think this is where it gets difficult.

7c+ was always considered the cut-off/top end for E6, but that would be for sport - with other factors coming into play for the E7.

It's not a fixed line, with the factors determining an on-sight of something like Master's Wall being different to that with a route like Strawberries (or The Phoenix). Having all your gear sorted for a route like Phoenix will place the focus on physicality, rather than the overall.

I'm still inclined to think that when we say E7, we're really referring to a level of difficulty/uncertainty/boldness/risk.

What e6's are 7c+? Even tge safest ones I can think of (stuff like grezelda) is only 7b+ probably?

[mrjonathanr]

I think you are talking at cross purposes Ged. When bolts arrived the French grades were converted into English ones, so say, Mescalito at 7c+ was E6 but Rain Dogs at 8a was E7.

As a trad graded E6, 7c+ would be quite harsh!

[Adam Lincoln]

I think this is where it gets difficult.

7c+ was always considered the cut-off/top end for E6, but that would be for sport - with other factors coming into play for the E7.

It's not a fixed line, with the factors determining an on-sight of something like Master's Wall being different to that with a route like Strawberries (or The Phoenix). Having all your gear sorted for a route like Phoenix will place the focus on physicality, rather than the overall.

I'm still inclined to think that when we say E7, we're really referring to a level of difficulty/uncertainty/boldness/risk.

What e6's are 7c+? Even tge safest ones I can think of (stuff like grezelda) is only 7b+ probably?

Hells Wall. 7c…. Safe as houses

[Ged]

I mean hells Wall is basically a sport route though. You have to be selective about what to actually bother clipping! In terms of e6's that involve placing gear, I don't think I can think of any harder than 7b+

[Ged]

I think you are talking at cross purposes Ged. When bolts arrived the French grades were converted into English ones, so say, Mescalito at 7c+ was E6 but Rain Dogs at 8a was E7.

As a trad graded E6, 7c+ would be quite harsh!

I'm not sure what purposes I've crossed...

[Adam Lincoln]

I mean hells Wall is basically a sport route though. You have to be selective about what to actually bother clipping! In terms of e6's that involve placing gear, I don't think I can think of any harder than 7b+

King of kings. 7c….. and E6

[jwi]

If I understand correctly safe 8c is E9 and spicy 8c is E10?

In practice that's probably a little harsh. For E9: easy but dangerous is ~7c (Rare Lichen, Indian Face) and hard but safe is 8b/+ (Mission Impossible). E10: 8a+ to 8c+ or so.

Is that safe as in "absolutely fine even if you miss a placement or two" or safe as in "safe for redpoint ascent with all crucial gear tested"? Makes a big difference on the onsight imho.

[mrjonathanr]

I think you are talking at cross purposes Ged. When bolts arrived the French grades were converted into English ones, so say, Mescalito at 7c+ was E6 but Rain Dogs at 8a was E7.

As a trad graded E6, 7c+ would be quite harsh!

I'm not sure what purposes I've crossed...

7c+ was always considered the cut-off/top end for E6, but that would be for sport -

I read Dave as talking about the conversion of sport route grades to E grades, rather than the other way round. So 7c+ is definitive as-hard-as-it-gets E6.

A trad route, with the hassle of finding, placing and trusting gear (as opposed to clipping 15 pegs) is a different proposition to climb entirely. Hence the comment.

[Tony]

Mike Owen climbed Hollow Man in 1990 on sight. All his ascents are visible on UKC

Mike was undoubtedly one of the best trad climbers around. However I don't think "onsight" is an accurate reflection of that ascent (but I can completely understand why one might choose to record it that way in a personal record.)

Mike had climbed The Bells, The Bells before (an ascent not without interest) - which he states clearly in his UKC log and in his blog. The "The Bells, The Bells" section encompasses all the risky hard climbing on the Hollow Man.

[DAVETHOMAS90]

I think you are talking at cross purposes Ged. When bolts arrived the French grades were converted into English ones, so say, Mescalito at 7c+ was E6 but Rain Dogs at 8a was E7.

As a trad graded E6, 7c+ would be quite harsh!

I'm not sure what purposes I've crossed...

Slightly off topic. Here's an interesting article about cross porpoises 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/04/22/dolphins-hold-grudges-scientists-discover-mammals-will-help/

[remus]

If I understand correctly safe 8c is E9 and spicy 8c is E10?

In practice that's probably a little harsh. For E9: easy but dangerous is ~7c (Rare Lichen, Indian Face) and hard but safe is 8b/+ (Mission Impossible). E10: 8a+ to 8c+ or so.

Is that safe as in "absolutely fine even if you miss a placement or two" or safe as in "safe for redpoint ascent with all crucial gear tested"? Makes a big difference on the onsight imho.

Yeah, that's safe as in no super specific gear beta required, you'd be able to work it out on lead (in my armchair opinion at least). For example, mission impossible is protected by pegs and some small wires. Maybe if you had something that was completely safe (i.e. gear above your head the whole way) it'd slip in to 8c terrain (Ben gave hubble E9 after all ) but in practice I don't think there are many routes like that.

[spidermonkey09]

Also if you miss a few placements on most UK climbing you'll have topped out before you find any more.

[Fultonius]

Also if you miss a few placements on most UKEnglish/Grit/Sandstone climbing you'll have topped out before you find any more.

Bit of a grit centric view?

I've only done 2 E6s, neither onsight. One was about 6c+/7a and quite bold (Hells Kitchen Arete) and the other well enough protected, but very cruxy and probably about 7b/7b+. Some of the gear would be fiddly on the onsight. Seems mad to think you could also get an E6 at Fr7c+!

Is E6 the widest grade?

[spidermonkey09]

Yeah definitely, was tongue in cheek also; just making the point that on most UK E7s or above I would imagine gear is a finite resource and climbing past a few placements will in most circumstances make things extremely bold, unlike in a 40m finger crack or something.

7c+ at E6 is surely a bit off; I would have thought 7c would be absolute top of E6 and even then quite unusual. Yes there are examples, but I bet there are considerably more examples of E7s with 7c climbing.

[grimer]

I'm sure i have an old Yorkshire Limestone guide where Dominatrix is in at E5 6b. That was led on the old aid gear. Then I read an account once of someone who flashed it and 'only did cos they didn't dare weight any of the gear'. I guess the E5 was a Yorkshire in-joke, but would Dominatrix only be E6 with poor gear?

[IanP]

7c+ at E6 is surely a bit off; I would have thought 7c would be absolute top of E6 and even then quite unusual. Yes there are examples, but I bet there are considerably more examples of E7s with 7c climbing.

All a bit above my pay grade but both Cave Routes were E6 prior to rebolting - not sure how much gear you had to place on CRL, but its 7c+ and whole lot harder than the CRR.   Did attempt CRR in the 90s and only placed a few wires and it felt more 7b+ than E6 maybe because of the style I was attempting it (rp rather than os).

[andy moles]

1. Conventional onsight flash - bottom to top first go (downclimbing allowed ofc this isn;t fucking UKC) with just the knowledge from guidebooks and whatever you can glean with your own eyes.

I think if you want to meaningfully distinguish between different shades of ground-up ascent, you can't leave chalked-ness out of it.

Sure, you may have no control over whether a route is chalked or not when you turn up to climb it, but then again you may. People sometimes deliberately choose to get on things when they know they're well chalked. It's not unknown to get a mate to chalk a line before an 'onsight' attempt.

In terms of the difference it makes to the level of difficulty, obviously it will vary depending on the nature of a particular route, and whether it's a light frosting on some holds vs. double donkey ticks, but chalk can be just as relevant as good beta.