[Neil F]

Couple more messages from Ian Carr:-

“ Dougie did Eyes of Fire on Chee Tor in 1985 or 86 as a true trad route. Sure this is worth E7 as well.

He took one fall from the very top. Ended up eye to eye with me stood on the ground.”

and

“ Also Terminal Twilight in 85 ish...”

[shark]

According to my Yorkshire Limestone Rockfax from 1990, Chiselling is graded E6 6c...7c and Seventh Aardvark is E5 6b...7b. Dunno where E5 for Chiselling came from?

They both got E56c in a photo in Extreme Rock but yes obviously the wrong grades

Makes sense to me as the E grade with an accompanying English tech grade adds another layer of info e.g. Raindogs E7 6b has easier moves but is more sustained than Zoolook E7 6c which has a harder crux but with a better rest midway.

🤔 The headwall of Zoolook is sustained and in terms of the moves on Raindogs they might be more basic but they are harder if you lack the strength/power. I was completely shut down on some of the moves on Raindogs after redpointing Zoolook

[Fultonius]

I know we've got shite weather, midges and neds, but up here we do actually have quite a lot of well protected E6s in the 7b+/7c range. Would actually make quite a good UKC logbook ticklist.

Out of interest, which Scottish E6s would you say are safe 7b+/c Ally?

Uncertain Emotions, Railway Children 

Small chance I may have been somewhat over-reaching my knowledge here... (aka talking out my erse)

Still, there's things like The Kelpie, Major Domo (maybe easier but meant to be safe), Rain on Rora Head maybe:  https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/rora_head-339/rain-621439

I suspect there are loads more. I'm considering pulling together some info similar to the old "grit list" idea. I just get the feeling from general crag / campground banter that most Scottish E6s are, at least, fairly well protected rather than than the typical E6s elsewhere in the UK.

[IanP]

The other amazing thing about Dougie was the speed he climbed. Amazing to watch him zoom up E5’s in the Leap where he was belayed by some random HVS climber he’d just met who had no idea who he was.

I know someone who climbed fairly regularly with Dougie back in the day who described seconding really slowly in Pembroke as it was the only chance to get a rest 

[Felix14]

What style did he do General dismissal in?
I seem to remember there being something unusual about his ascent.

[Tony S]

Mike Owen climbed Hollow Man in 1990 on sight. All his ascents are visible on UKC

Mike was undoubtedly one of the best trad climbers around. However I don't think "onsight" is an accurate reflection of that ascent (but I can completely understand why one might choose to record it that way in a personal record.)

Mike had climbed The Bells, The Bells before (an ascent not without interest) - which he states clearly in his UKC log and in his blog. The "The Bells, The Bells" section encompasses all the risky hard climbing on the Hollow Man.

I remember going up to Dave Birkett at Kendal and pretty much accusing him of not doing a ‘proper on-sight’ of Caff’s E8 at Dove ‘Fear of Failure’ as surely he had done Vlad first, so had knowledge of the bottom bit. To which he replied he did Vlad afterwards. Oops. Ethics Police 0, Sheep Rescuer 1.

Fortunately, I'm not making any assumptions here: Mike details the chronology of these ascents v clearly himself.

[Tony S]

There's generally a flurry of activity whenever anyone hears Iain Small has been busy on a route somewhere, especially from the like likes of Macnair...

I believe Niall himself refers to this form of ascent as the "parasight".

[remus]

What style did he do General dismissal in?
I seem to remember there being something unusual about his ascent.

From memory Dougie made the FA thinking he was repeating a nearby route, perhaps that's what you're thinking of?

[Fultonius]

There's generally a flurry of activity whenever anyone hears Iain Small has been busy on a route somewhere, especially from the like likes of Macnair...

I believe Niall himself refers to this form of ascent as the "parasight".

Brilliant! What a lad! Chuffed to see him get up Achemine.

[shark]

What style did he do General dismissal in?
I seem to remember there being something unusual about his ascent.

From memory Dougie made the FA thinking he was repeating a nearby route, perhaps that's what you're thinking of?

Must be solid E8 that if it’s 8a

[Tony S]

What style did he do General dismissal in?
I seem to remember there being something unusual about his ascent.

From memory Dougie made the FA thinking he was repeating a nearby route...

Remus, were you even born when Dougie climbed this route?!

I'm aware something not a million miles away from the above (but not actually the above) is stated in a guidebook. However, I'm far from convinced it's the entire truth. (Though I have no doubt, from what I've heard from his contemporaries, that Dougie was an awesome trad climber.)

[shark]

In the BMC guide it says that he climbed it thinking Dave Lee had already done it.

How come this is called General Dismissal rather than General Incompetence?

[Neil F]

Dave Lee was 'the General' (and also 'Chesters', because he came from Chesterfield).

He was a brilliant climber, doing several excellent new routes in Cheedale, and spending a lot of time on the Nettle Buttress line (which I think he got pretty high on, but could never regain that high point).

One day, Gore quipped that he was going to do it and call it General Dismissal, which was the first time that (potential) name surfaced.

Dougie did the FA, but I don't think he named it.

I'm pretty sure I asked Chesters at the time if he liked General Incompetence, as a light hearted homage to his (ultimately unsuccessful) seige, and he did, thinking it was funny.

That's why it ended up as General Incompetence.

Where is it called General Dismissal, Simon?

[shark]

Thanks for the background Neil - knew some but not all.

It’s called General Dismissal on the ukc logbooks

[Tony S]

Dougie did the FA, but I don't think he named it.

The reason this route is mentioned on this thread is because the same guide also suggests Dougie made the FA onsight (though, who knows what defn of onsight).

Neil, do you know if that was the case? These days I'm pretty sure the route is ~8a and not a very trad/onsight style 8a.

May as well also ask, did Dougie know it had not been climbed? (Or is the guidebook entirely inaccurate on this one?!)

[shark]

The reason this route is mentioned on this thread is because the same guide also suggests Dougie made the FA onsight (though, who knows what defn of onsight).

The history section of the current BMC guide doesn’t say it was climbed onsight if that’s the guide you are referring to.

[Neil F]

I'd be staggered if Dougie did it on sight, though he wasn't averse to making very hard moves with the gear below your feet, which is how I remember the project from the time I watched Chesters trying it (I may even have a photo of Dave on it, buried in the archives).

I think someone must have put Doug up to it, though I don't know who.  I also don't know who held his ropes, though it could have been John Smith?

So I definitely know a bit about Chesters' attempts, but basically nothing of Doug's successful ascent...

NB.  I remember that Chesters had put a lot of work into the line, so when Dougie did it, we feared he might be pretty miffed.  But Dave was a pretty laid back guy, and my memory is that he wasn't actually that bothered (which is probably the reason I thought it appropriate to suggest such an offensive name  )

[remus]

From memory Dougie made the FA thinking he was repeating a nearby route...

Remus, were you even born when Dougie climbed this route?!

Ha, no! I meant as in 'from memory of reading the guide'.

[Kingy]

🤔 The headwall of Zoolook is sustained and in terms of the moves on Raindogs they might be more basic but they are harder if you lack the strength/power. I was completely shut down on some of the moves on Raindogs after redpointing Zoolook

There is no doubt Zoolook is hard, basically an easy 8a+. Raindogs was always sold to me as being short but very sustained in a power endurance style with almost no rest with most moves being English 6b but with no 6c ones. I can see how someone not versed in that style and coming from a stamina route background would find some of the moves hard. I imagine the authors of the Rockfax saw fit to assign English 6c to the hardest move of Zoolook and 6b to the hardest move of Raindogs in their wisdom based on opinions at the time. Luckily we don't need to make that call now, just endlessly debate whether Zoolook is 8a or 8a+  Even if Zoolook were 8a+, it would still be graded E7 6c (as E7 covered both 8a and 8a+), just a harder overall proposition. Anyway 

[webbo]

The reason this route is mentioned on this thread is because the same guide also suggests Dougie made the FA onsight (though, who knows what defn of onsight).

The history section of the current BMC guide doesn’t say it was climbed onsight if that’s the guide you are referring to.

You could ask nik at work to ask Doug as he climbed with him in the I of M not that long ago.

[remus]

I can't remember if we're talking UK only, but Peter Croft made a first try first ascent of the crux pitch of The Shadow in Squamish in 1988. That weighs in at 12d or ~7c on trad gear which is in the right ball park.

The usual vagaries apply about whether it was a 'proper' onsight.

[tc]

Rubble, Leigh McGinley & Paul Pritchard,1991.
Must be a contender?

[jwi]

I can't remember if we're talking UK only, but Peter Croft made a first try first ascent of the crux pitch of The Shadow in Squamish in 1988. That weighs in at 12d or ~7c on trad gear which is in the right ball park.

The usual vagaries apply about whether it was a 'proper' onsight.

Jerry Moffat onsighted Super Crack 7c in Shawagunks in 1982.

[shark]

Phil Davison RIP is said to have onsighted Deathwish at Blue Scar in 1982 (pre peg on Stairway to Heaven)

[remus]

Phil Davison RIP is said to have onsighted Deathwish at Blue Scar in 1982 (pre peg on Stairway to Heaven)

I've swapped some emails with Elaine Owen (Mike Owen's partner) and she confirmed this ascent and gave the exact date as 19th september 1982.

https://climbing-history.org/climb/866/death-wish