[Bradders]

Here's another potentially controversial one to go with the discussion in the thread about The Titfield Thunderbolt and Whiskey Galore...

It's always really bothered me that no one ever tops Crusis out. It's really not that high, certainly by modern standards; the landing is perfectly flat; it's close to the road and very popular so easy to get pads for it; it's ALWAYS better to top out than drop off. And it's not like you finish on a nice jug for the drop off...it's a pretty poor sloper.

Best of all, as I discovered recently, the top adds both difficulty and genuine quality. It's fantastic! Possibly the best problem at the Cliff, I kid you not. Genuinely can't think of anything better. The top adds about a 7A's worth of climbing, with big moves on nice holds (I went direct, although YMC guide seems to suggest moving right to the arete, which looked like a poorer line to me and probably easier). And you get to turn around and look back over that wonderful view down Wharfedale.

Frankly, in my opinion, everyone needs to go back and do it properly. Dropping off is like traversing off at the break on West Side Story. Or if you climbed Sole Fusion at Crookrise to the lip and dropped from there. You haven't done the problem!

Only downside is many aspirant 7B climbers will lose one of their most obvious potential first of the grades. Small price to pay I think, especially when dropping is such a cop out.

Thoughts?

[Will Hunt]

Or if you climbed Sole Fusion at Crookrise to the lip and dropped from there. You haven't done the problem!

#oddlyspecific


I've been up for a look at the top out and couldn't figure it out. Demonstrate it for us and I will gladly give it a go.
Thing is, doing the sit to Crusis is nice, but a sit start to a problem as logical as a topped-out Crusis is going to seem wank.

[Bradders]

Or if you climbed Sole Fusion at Crookrise to the lip and dropped from there. You haven't done the problem!

#oddlyspecific

Ha, nothing meant by that, just a very similar looking problem in my view.

Took me a session last week to work out what to do and fall off near the top, then did it fairly quick today. I got a vid but I'm half tempted to let you work it out for yourself 

I did it from sit and it felt logical and like you were doing the complete line.

[dunnyg]

If we go along the 2 routes way, can we have the sit and stand to the top out and not top out problems? That gives 4 problems, then the links in from the virgin traverse and the virgin traverse reverse. So many new ticks.

[teestub]

I rarely top out The Gypsy so I'm unlikely to top this out, although I have climbed Demon Wall Roof into Demon Wall, you topped that one out bro?

Wonder how many people top Chiasmata out!

[dunnyg]

That's heroic teestub. Dolphin belly slap into dolphinian looks classic too

[Bradders]

I rarely top out The Gypsy so I'm unlikely to top this out, although I have climbed Demon Wall Roof into Demon Wall, you topped that one out bro?

Wonder how many people top Chiasmata out!

Ha no, but imagine if people climbed DWR and finished at the low break....same thing as this really!

And Dolphin Belly into Three Chockstones Chimney is clearly where it's at.

Chiasmata is another one that weighs heavily on my conscience. I think the difference though is topping it is genuinely dangerous at a couple of points; as in if you fell off you would be highly likely to hit the Matterhorn. And you finish on big jugs too.

[User deactivated.]

Chiasmata is another one that weighs heavily on my conscience. I think the difference though is topping it is genuinely dangerous at a couple of points; as in if you fell off you would be highly likely to hit the Matterhorn. And you finish on big jugs too.

Don't falter now! Chiasmata is a bit dangerous anyway. Having done an 8A to the break a 6-something top out from jugs shouldn't be too taxing, especially since it could be practiced first.

[teestub]

Ha no, but imagine if people climbed DWR and finished at the low break....same thing as this really!

And Dolphin Belly into Three Chockstones Chimney is clearly where it's at.

Chiasmata is another one that weighs heavily on my conscience. I think the difference though is topping it is genuinely dangerous at a couple of points; as in if you fell off you would be highly likely to hit the Matterhorn. And you finish on big jugs too.

I think your post kinda sums up nicely how arbitrary it all is and how people can decide what they are happy with. The Virgin problems are long established to finish at that break, or would you say that Cherry Falls is waiting a first ascent as no one had topped it out yet?

The top bit of Chiasmata is a HS, so about 10 English tech grades below the hard climbing, if you can do the hard bit it should be dangerous in the same way that walking up a flight of stairs is 😄

[Will Hunt]

Topping out Crusis looks more logical than topping out Chiasmata to me. From the break on Chiasmata you're either going to finish up V Crack on the right which is very easy above the break or Piggot's Stride (the crux of which is pulling over from the Matterhorn). Neither finish would feel especially logical after climbing Chiasmata but a nice finisher for lovers of a classic course.

You're all arse about face with Dolphin Belly Slap. This is the true finish:
https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/almscliff-373/johns_skatty_cave-352908

[dunnyg]

Finally something reasonable escapes from your mouth Will.

[Bradders]

I think your post kinda sums up nicely how arbitrary it all is and how people can decide what they are happy with. The Virgin problems are long established to finish at that break, or would you say that Cherry Falls is waiting a first ascent as no one had topped it out yet?

The top bit of Chiasmata is a HS, so about 10 English tech grades below the hard climbing, if you can do the hard bit it should be dangerous in the same way that walking up a flight of stairs is

I just think topping out is better than not, always. So if you can, you should. I think Cherry Falls goes to holds further left in the break, which would make it more contrived to then traverse right / leftwards to finish(?), but yeah if there's a way of doing it to the top of the boulder that's not really contrived then absolutely it should be done! To flip the Chiasmata point on its head, if you can climb an 8A+ then finishing up a 7A should be no bother.

And then the argument gets even stronger when it's really not that high, has a perfect flat landing, and adds real quality to the problem.

I don't disagree about Chiasmata, as I say it's one that I'm not happy with having dropped off. I just think it's a more forgivable one given the landing and obvious jug finish point.

[36chambers]

I don't disagree about Chiasmata, as I say it's one that I'm not happy with having dropped off. I just think it's a more forgivable one given the landing and obvious jug finish point.

Don't worry Bradders, you'll get it next time for sure.


So the direct top out to Crusis is 7A in its own right? Sounds terrifying. It's always looked super scrittly and uninviting up there. If you add the full thing to UKC (as a 7B+?) then I'm sure it'll start getting logged.

(in a similar vein, I always thought it was a shame that all the problems on the Bowerstone don't officially top out. If the tops aren't choss(?), then I can only see it making the problems better.)

[User deactivated.]

If I remember correctly the Yorkshire Gritstone Bouldering guide already says Crusis is 7A+ to the break or 7B to the top?

I wouldn't argue with 7A+ to the break, but I can reach the top break with my feet still in the lower break...

[James Malloch]

I don't disagree about Chiasmata, as I say it's one that I'm not happy with having dropped off. I just think it's a more forgivable one given the landing and obvious jug finish point.

Don't worry Bradders, you'll get it next time for sure.


So the direct top out to Crusis is 7A in its own right? Sounds terrifying. It's always looked super scrittly and uninviting up there. If you add the full thing to UKC (as a 7B+?) then I'm sure it'll start getting logged.

(in a similar vein, I always thought it was a shame that all the problems on the Bowerstone don't officially top out. If the tops aren't choss(?), then I can only see it making the problems better.)

Isn’t there something about the bowderstone having some rare lichen on which means you’re not suppose to top out a lot of the problems?

Either way. I’m all for dropping off problems. Fuck top outs. I think grades should be given for hands on top for all problems.

[spidermonkey09]

Isn’t there something about the bowderstone having some rare lichen on which means you’re not suppose to top out a lot of the problems?

Either way. I’m all for dropping off problems. Fuck top outs. I think grades should be given for hands on top for all problems.

You'll be knocking about 8 grades off most things in Font in that case...

More generally I'm with Bradders on this one but think Crusis is an interesting case as other problems finish at that break too. Imagine dropping off there started one wet day when topping out was impossible/green/really dirty, or when people didn't have enough pads to protect the topout? I'd be keen to try and topout at some point, it has crossed my mind previously but like Will, I couldn't see how to do it.

Its quite a problem specific thing. Eg I am instinctively happy with dropping off Crusis, but if people drop off West Side Story= no tick. I know thats not logically consistent but...

[Bradders]

Don't worry Bradders, you'll get it next time for sure.

 

So the direct top out to Crusis is 7A in its own right? Sounds terrifying. It's always looked super scrittly and uninviting up there. If you add the full thing to UKC (as a 7B+?) then I'm sure it'll start getting logged.

Yeah I would say so. You've a fairly powerful move off the sloper you normally finish on to get to a sidepull, and then it's a big old slap off bunched feet to the lip. Do an easy couple of moves, and a last big slap to a jug, then mantle. Hardest moves are the two to get to the lip from the normal finish.

If I remember correctly the Yorkshire Gritstone Bouldering guide already says Crusis is 7A+ to the break or 7B to the top?

UKC consensus is 7B for the drop off, so adding the top by my grade maths gives something like 7B+/7C. Which feels about right for what I did. Good power endurance boulder.

The guides are all over the place. YMC guide indicates you go right to the arete, which would be a poor line and easier. Dunning's guide says something vague about going up the wall to top out. And the old Rockfax just says reach the break and doesn't mention topping out at all. My impression is none of them really knew so just slapped something random in.

[teestub]

I think something similar happened with Great White at Curbar, with someone adding a top out, not sure that has gained popularity?

In the case of Crucis it sounds like the top out changes a 1 mat problem with good movement that has been climbed to the same point for at least 2 decades into a fairly committing highball needing a load of mats and a spot.

This is fine if you’re interested in that sort of thing, but the ‘frankly everyone should go back and do it properly bit’ can do one.

[Will Hunt]

The guides are all over the place. YMC guide indicates you go right to the arete

It does and it doesn't. The text talks about going right, the topo indicates going direct.

My impression is none of them really knew so just slapped something random in.

Given that the chapter is co-written by James Ibbertson who has, I believe, done a bit of climbing round here, I think it's unlikely that something random has been slapped in. More likely that Crusis was originally conceived as a drop-off with the occasional person deciding to top out either direct, via The Virgin (if this is actually a different top out to what you describe), or finishing up The Gypsy. The uncertainty derives from turning something that started in the days of word-of-mouth into a guide where people expect to be given precise detail.

The problem isn't described in the previous edition of the YMC guide so there's no original info to draw on there. Steve Rhodes has it as an unnamed 6c and doesn't mention topping out; Cameron-Duff describes everything on the face as a drop-off except the Gypsy (which even then is given E3 for topping out as opposed to V3 for the start).


While we're on the subject, the only place I can see this problem named is in the Dunning guide where it's called Crusis; YG have gone for Crucis.The former was "a maritime district of North-West Chalcidice from Potidaea to the Thermaic Gulf. It was named after Crusis the son of Mygdon."; the latter is either an astronomical reference to stars in the Crux constellation or a word meaning "cross" that crops up in lots of religious uses.
Given the possible link to "crux", possible religious link with The Virgin, and the arm positions as you undercut with the left and slap up the crack with your right (a cross?) then I'd go with Crucis.

[Will Hunt]

Wait, I've got it.

Bradders, start a new post in the New Problems sub-forum listing the top-out you've done. This will trigger a post from Webbo telling us that he did it in 1893 and he can then tell us which way he went.

Also just noticed that YG gives the FA to JP Hotham in 1999 but the Steve Rhodes guide was produced in 1993!

[Will Hunt]

Sorry for the triple post.

Just looked at Bradders' video and the YG text and topo again. YG agrees with Bradders up to the lip then is shown and described as going right to the arete. Bradders hits the lip and, to my eye, moves his hands slightly left to flutings which I think are what you use to top out The Virgin - so there's two top outs there as opposed to three.

[cheque]

While we're on the subject, the only place I can see this problem named is in the Dunning guide where it's called Crusis; … I'd go with Crucis.

It’s certainly not a guide known for its spelling accuracy.

I’m all for dropping off problems. Fuck top outs. I think grades should be given for hands on top for all problems.

I take it your top out training regime wasn’t as successful as hoped then?

[webbo]

Wait, I've got it.

Bradders, start a new post in the New Problems sub-forum listing the top-out you've done. This will trigger a post from Webbo telling us that he did it in 1893 and he can then tell us which way he went.

Also just noticed that YG gives the FA to JP Hotham in 1999 but the Steve Rhodes guide was produced in 1993!

Actually Will I haven’t done it. I did it from standing as I thought  that what you did and finished at break. I have done the Virgin some time last century and I think I can remember how that finish’s. Something involving a jam of all things.

[Bradders]

In the case of Crucis it sounds like the top out changes a 1 mat problem with good movement that has been climbed to the same point for at least 2 decades into a fairly committing highball needing a load of mats and a spot.

This is fine if you’re interested in that sort of thing, but the ‘frankly everyone should go back and do it properly bit’ can do one.

Okay, allow me to rephrase; everyone should go and do it because it's flipping brilliant, and makes a good problem the best problem at Almscliff. 

[Will Hunt]

I'm sorry but it can't be better than Hanging Rib.

[andy_e]

I'm sorry but it can't be better than Dolphin Belly Slap Without The Right Arete Except For Your Right Heel At the Start

[Bradders]

Actually maybe Demon Wall Roof Original in 3 moves pips it 

[SA Chris]

everyone should go and do it because it's flipping brilliant, and makes a good problem the best problem at Almscliff. 

Thanks Jerry.

[ali k]

How many people have ticked Jess’s Roof?