[Fiend]

Never underestimate the effect of the cock-up!

You didn't attend the highly demeaning yet ultimately memorable "Chalkbag Posing Pouch With Combined Clipstick Wedgie" moderators' initial ritual either?? I've heard it's essential to bring out a moderator's humility to temper the stern judgements. Also why Shark looks so shell-shocked much of the time....

[PipeSmoke]

T I think Potash was harsh but justified.

I'm not sure implying Dan would be a pedophile if the law wasn't deterring him is justified really?

It's a bit baffling to me how annoyed you all get by it. You realise you don't have to reply? I don't agree with basically everything Dan has said, but I also don't feel anger or anything towards his posts.

[Oldmanmatt]

Thought-provoking essay Totalitarianism and the Five Stages of Dehumanization by Christiaan Alting von Geusau at:
https://brownstone.org/articles/totalitarianism-and-the-five-stages-of-dehumanization/

...The fifth and final step?...

...account deleted and posts removed...

"...truth is a goal to attain, not an object to claim and thus requires humility and respectful dialogue... a society can only be free, healthy and prosperous when no human being is excluded and when there is always the genuine willingness and openness for a robust public discourse, to hear and understand the other, no matter how different his or her opinion or attitude to life." - Christiaan W. J. M. Alting von Geusau.

What constitutes bullying anyway?

😬



Yes, I realise I am also holding up a mirror to myself…

[Nails]

Ok, Id missed the "Young Boys" bit. Yes that's too much.

I wouldn't say that personally I was annoyed by Dan, but I think that this kind of conspiracy nonsense needs calling out. Yes you can ignore him but as the thread demonstrates, he's sufficiently provocative that someone will end up engaging and he just keeps going. There's a clear pattern of Dan spewing some conspiracy stuff that is then easily refuted. Dan either spews something else or contradicts what he's said earlier. People attempt to pin him down, whereby he states something glib or continues with the above. Meanwhile anyone else attempting to discuss anything is simply drowned out by the turgid cacophony of Dan.

I don't suppose anybody on here really has any knowledge of the state of Dan's mental health. You would suspect it might not be great. However, I doubt it is improved by his interaction on this forum, which is another justification for a ban. People get silenced in all sorts of ways in life and it isn't always a bad thing (for them or everyone else). UKB seems to have a generally liberal philosophy that makes people quite uneasy with the idea of banning/censoring/silencing. However,  Chomsky's absolutist concept of freedom of speech simply falls apart in everyday real world situations. We all silence and get silenced with varying degrees of justification.

The only time I think I was genuinely annoyed at Dan was when he referred to vaccines as a therapeutic.

[seankenny]

It's worth remembering that Dan is somewhere between flirting with and spreading ideas that have led thousands of people to their deaths, and that the pain of regret at not taking the vaccine has clearly made some of those deaths even harder for everyone concerned. It's not like this is a theoretical discussion - he's (almost?) the guy shouting "fire" in a crowded cinema.

That doesn't mean I'm comfortable about banning him, and I hope that any posters who know Dan personally are checking up on him because it's clear he's not in a good place.

[Bonjoy]

Thread re-merged / reinstated

Jon/Duncan feel free to remove any posts that constitute bullying

They're entangled with the discussion now, so at this point I'd prefer to leave in place unless requested to remove by either poster.

[mrjonathanr]

I do mind when I get PM’ed whilst away in Chulilla* and having to make a judgement about whether someone is trolling or not

  I thought it was getting a bit out of hand and just wanted you to take a look, not trying to push for a specific outcome. Thanks for doing that. Sorry to disrupt your climbing holiday, I’m only slightly envious.

The censorship question is a difficult one. Obviously you are on safe ground with the 12 months ban thing, but when someone posts content which, as Sean says, has the potential to cause harm, it’s hard to know how tolerant to be. I lost sympathy fast with the insistence others pay attention to dubious posts but a total refusal to engage when people replied. That was what did it for me.

[jwi]

There is no point in having rational discourse with a conspiracy nut. They are not driven by rationality, but by emotions. If someone says that the covid 19 vaccines don't protect against both infection and hospitalisation they cannot be reached by arguments or facts, they have already decided that the pandemic is inconvenient to them and therefore it is all bull and you can spread any kind of unsubstantiated lies about it.

By allowing conspiracy theories to fester in your media, you will become facebooked in your head.

(It is the same for any conspiracy theory. No one becomes anti semite from being convinced about debile theories that the holocaust never happend. People believe or spread—a distinction without meaning—revisionism because they hate jews in the first place. People don't get convinced that 9/11 was an inside job from rational discourse, only people who hate US to start with would spread such bull.)

[Johnny Brown]

I think that's mostly true for those examples, but it's also a rabbit hole with no end for those who have decided the mainstream narrative isn't trustworthy. I know a few people who started with 911, then Apollo, chem-trails and so on. None of these require any hate up front, just some suspicion and an awry bullshit detector. I say awry because it's often overactive rather than absent. And a lot of people peddling this stuff do so in good faith, they aren't lying. They believe it. It makes a simpler explanation than the messy reality of complex system having unpredictable outcomes, and gives them a sense of power that they've figured it out.

One guy in particular went all the way past flat-earthism to trying to tell me the moon is a simulation (search lunar waves on YouTube) and that the royal family are shape-shifting reptilians. I still like him and he had a sense of humour about it but fuck me.

There's no point in trying to prove people wrong, it's becomes a religion. I think the best approach is trying to sow a seed of doubt, i.e. discuss the more ridiculous conspiracies like above, where do they stand? Have they researched them in the same open-mined way or do they just accept the mainstream narrative? And assuming they don't jump all the way in, suggest they quiz their fellow travellers on which they believe.

[mrjonathanr]

Well now, this was a timely observation piece in the Guardian:
Being mandated to receive a vaccine means suffering a great psychic injury – can you still be an anti-vaxxer if you’ve been vaccinated (and survived)? It means cutting out the most vital, zealous part of themselves.

[jwi]

I think that's mostly true for those examples, but it's also a rabbit hole with no end for those who have decided the mainstream narrative isn't trustworthy. I know a few people who started with 911, then Apollo, chem-trails and so on. None of these require any hate up front, just some suspicion and an awry bullshit detector.

I have a hard time believing that these people where not predisposed to a distrust, or complete rejection, of the basic values of the Enlightenment.

Anyone who wants to find out the shape of the earth for themselves can do so from first principles (even whose who for some reason do not believe in Newton's laws of motion) and a bit of work. No tools that you cannot get at your local hardware store are needed. So it isn't like they are good at detecting bullshit, they are just very predisposed to believe it.

It is well known that the cretins who believe conspiracy stuff are quite happy to support several contradicting conspiracy theories. It is because they have nothing to do with reason. It just a form of political discourse for idiots.

[kelvin]

So it isn't like they are good at detecting bullshit, they are just very predisposed to believe it.

I'd agree with you generally but I think it's more that they like to listen to what they want to believe or what proves their ponderings right, rather than general gullibility.

Nigh on all of those I have contact with were already into rejecting main stream medicine before covid, to one degree or another, whether that be by using homeopathic remedies or just never taking ibruprofen or any pills for anything whatsoever. Now, nearly all of them believe that cancer can be fixed by eating vegetables. It's one of the first things I ask them.
Once they're well along the path to the rabbit hole, the once complimentary medicine seems to become their only medicine.

I'd naturally just shrug my shoulders and leave them to it. However their vociferous vocalising of lies, slander, fraud and pie in the sky philosophy whilst calling me sheeple, lamb, cattle or Nazi enabler means I don't get to shrug my shoulders and leave them to it.
When it's a member of your own family who constantly berates your partner for daring to have the vaccine, for not "thinking of the poor children", accusing you of cognitive dissonance, whilst all the while being a shining example of someone who loves to practice confirmation bias and motivated reasoning - well, yeah, I'm gonna call them out. Family or not.

For those on here who wonder why some of us get upset or bothered by people like Dan, I can only say that for my part, it's because I have to put up with the same nonsense very close to home. It's tiring to start with but rapidly becomes annoying.

[mrjonathanr]

That sounds arduous Kelvin. Just reading antivax nonsense on the internet is tiresome!

[Oldmanmatt]

So it isn't like they are good at detecting bullshit, they are just very predisposed to believe it.

I'd agree with you generally but I think it's more that they like to listen to what they want to believe or what proves their ponderings right, rather than general gullibility.

Nigh on all of those I have contact with were already into rejecting main stream medicine before covid, to one degree or another, whether that be by using homeopathic remedies or just never taking ibruprofen or any pills for anything whatsoever. Now, nearly all of them believe that cancer can be fixed by eating vegetables. It's one of the first things I ask them.
Once they're well along the path to the rabbit hole, the once complimentary medicine seems to become their only medicine.

I'd naturally just shrug my shoulders and leave them to it. However their vociferous vocalising of lies, slander, fraud and pie in the sky philosophy whilst calling me sheeple, lamb, cattle or Nazi enabler means I don't get to shrug my shoulders and leave them to it.
When it's a member of your own family who constantly berates your partner for daring to have the vaccine, for not "thinking of the poor children", accusing you of cognitive dissonance, whilst all the while being a shining example of someone who loves to practice confirmation bias and motivated reasoning - well, yeah, I'm gonna call them out. Family or not.

For those on here who wonder why some of us get upset or bothered by people like Dan, I can only say that for my part, it's because I have to put up with the same nonsense very close to home. It's tiring to start with but rapidly becomes annoying.

Going through this shite, whilst my wife was dying of cancer and various relatives (usually, but not exclusively, the Romanian side), constantly trying to force detox fucking teas and kale smoothies, along with all the “you’re just not trying hard enough” and “it’s all about positive mental attitude” bullying; certainly turned me off the fuckers.

So, yeah, the likes of Dan get my goat and he’s far more the bully than the victim. It’s not simply a different point of view, it’s out and out victim shaming.
It’s also disturbing to see someone so patently frightened of reality, they need to invent a fantasy world to hide in. “It’s all fake, the vaccine is the real killer and I can just keep myself and my loved ones safe by avoiding the vaccine”.

It’s entirely for the benefit of the purveyor. Just like all those wankers with their “you just need to drink more Beetroot smoothies” were only really trying to protect themselves from the reality of a young woman getting sick and dying in a way that no medicine could prevent. Protection they needed because the truth was that they were every bit as at risk of the same fate and hiding from the helplessness was all they could do. However, diminishing the victim, panting them as weaker, stupider, less woke; is the only way to mitigate the cognitive dissonance their denial of reality engenders. That in turn sparks further dissonance and ever greater leaps and self reassurance/delusion. A very deep rabbit hole indeed.

[mrjonathanr]

On topic, really considered account from an NHS consultant in today’s Guardian.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/21/icu-is-full-of-the-unvaccinated-my-patience-with-them-is-wearing-thin

[kelvin]

Going through this shite, whilst my wife was dying of cancer and various relatives (usually, but not exclusively, the Romanian side), constantly trying to force detox fucking teas and kale smoothies, along with all the “you’re just not trying hard enough” and “it’s all about positive mental attitude” bullying; certainly turned me off the fuckers.

So, yeah, the likes of Dan get my goat and he’s far more the bully than the victim. It’s not simply a different point of view, it’s out and out victim shaming.
It’s also disturbing to see someone so patently frightened of reality, they need to invent a fantasy world to hide in. “It’s all fake, the vaccine is the real killer and I can just keep myself and my loved ones safe by avoiding the vaccine”.

It’s entirely for the benefit of the purveyor. Just like all those wankers with their “you just need to drink more Beetroot smoothies” were only really trying to protect themselves from the reality of a young woman getting sick and dying in a way that no medicine could prevent. Protection they needed because the truth was that they were every bit as at risk of the same fate and hiding from the helplessness was all they could do. However, diminishing the victim, panting them as weaker, stupider, less woke; is the only way to mitigate the cognitive dissonance their denial of reality engenders. That in turn sparks further dissonance and ever greater leaps and self reassurance/delusion. A very deep rabbit hole indeed.

That was hard reading Matt and you have my deepest sympathies.

[Nemo]

"I don't agree with basically everything Dan has said, but I also don't feel anger or anything towards his posts." - PipeSmoke

This stuff isn't funny and it isn't harmless.
As seankenny and others have said, LozT and those with similarly ridiculous opinions are literally killing people.  A member of my partner's family recently died of covid, unvaccinated, because there's 2 other members of her family who parrot similar nonsense to what he was posting on here, who've persuaded most of them not to get jabbed.  It's idiocy, it's prolonging the pandemic for everyone else, it's killing people and deserves to be called out as such. 

"One guy in particular went all the way past flat-earthism to trying to tell me the moon is a simulation (search lunar waves on YouTube) and that the royal family are shape-shifting reptilians." - JohnnyBrown

Tragically, this kind of bollocks is becoming gobsamackingly common.  People really do believe this crap.  People who've been through the entire UK education system.  Five years ago I might have thought this was hilarious.  I don't any more.

There's no point in trying to prove people wrong - JohnnyBrown

Yeah, having any kind of discourse with them involving disproving their stats or facts or other intellectual arguments are rarely effective. 

What can sometimes be effective is pointing out where some of the shite they are spouting actually comes from.  Sometimes when they get out of their little bubble and see some of the other views of other people spouting some of the shite they are spouting it can cause a rethink.

ie: When you point out that some people pushing some of this crap believe that ovarian cysts are caused by sex with demons etc etc, you may start getting somewhere.  At least with those that aren't on the religious right, or too far down the rabbit hole.

The fact is that a lot of people in the anti vaxxer movement don't even realise what is behind an awful lot of what they are saying.  Conspiracy theories are being used by the right, in both the US and Russia, and rapidly spreading elsewhere - as a political weapon.

A lot of the religious right in the US don't like science, don't like abortion, don't like evolution being taught in schools, and don't like a lot of healthcare based on science.  As such anyone that has anything to do with promoting scientific healthcare and vaccines, whether it's Fauci or Gates or anyone else, gets demonised.  Clearly, there's lots of people on the right who easily buy that.

Elsewhere, it's often more that those in power are happy to sow conspiracies to disorient people to such an extent that they don't believe anything or anyone any more.
ie: ideas from left wing situationisism, used by the right in the age of social media - where it actually works.

And yet another wing of anti vaxxers comes from the new age, spiritual, lefty wing of humanity.  You know, the folks who won't have a vaccine because it's "untested", but will go down their local Chinese medicine store and swallow any number of random pills containing any amount of random shite.  They are just as happy to buy into the conspiracy nonsense usually started by the right wingers as it fits their anti scientific world view as well.

The whole thing is extremely depressing.
There's lots of things in the world to dislike and distrust western governments and politicians for. 
Vaccines for a horrible disease aren't one of them.

Like the guy in that article above, I'm losing patience with this stuff rapidly.  I don't like the idea of mandating vaccines (both Covid and other standard childhood vaccines), and there's plenty of perfectly good arguments against.  But I'm starting to think that it may be the best of a set of bad choices.  I hope I'm proven wrong, and the uptake increases significantly without the need for it.

[Fiend]

I don't like the idea of mandating vaccines (both Covid and other standard childhood vaccines), and there's plenty of perfectly good arguments against.  But I'm starting to think that it may be the best of a set of bad choices.

If only there was a thread where people could rationally discuss this very issue of whether it is justifiable or not taking into account arguments for and against.....oh......

And...

It's idiocy, it's prolonging the pandemic for everyone else

Yup. The more they fuck around, the great the chance of other restrictions happening.
This is a key factor which the anti-vaxx propagandists seem to overlook - do they really think they have the power or the numbers to change the government's mind?? If it gets to the stage where rising cases / hospitalisations / deaths are encouraging the government to bring in tougher restrictions, do they honestly think that because their vocal minority has "seen the real documents about vaccine risks" or "watched a youtube video that exposes the great reset truth" that the government is going to roll over, play dead, and NOT bring in those restrictions?? Errrr....get ta fuck.

[jwi]

This is a key factor which the anti-vaxx propagandists seem to overlook - do they really think they have the power or the numbers to change the government's mind?? If it gets to the stage where rising cases / hospitalisations / deaths are encouraging the government to bring in tougher restrictions, do they honestly think that because their vocal minority has "seen the real documents about vaccine risks" or "watched a youtube video that exposes the great reset truth" that the government is going to roll over, play dead, and NOT bring in those restrictions?? Errrr....get ta fuck.

Cf. Germany/Austria/Switzerland. By not taking on the querdenkers (lit. “lateral thinker” a Germanic anti-rationalist movement which is frighteningly large) they have much higher levels of unvaccinated than in western, northern and southern Europe.

[duncan]

Kelvin and Matt, that sounds shit, hang in there. You can understand why people hold unhelpful health beliefs at an intellectual level but it’s bloody hard not to let it get to you when it's that close to home. Muting or defriending on social media is good for mental health and doesn't feed the algorithm; much harder when they are your family.

The current wave in German speaking countries is probably due to lifting of mask-wearing edicts over the summer on top of low vaccine take-up. This unfortunate combination has been facilitated by the "lateral thinkers" aka “federation of imbeciles” and right-wing libertarians like the Brownstone Institute of the link posted by the OP  (for whom public health is an un-American barrier to the God-given freedom to make lots of money and have previous when it comes to spreading Covid misinformation). 

[Fultonius]

My employer (55k or so global employees) has just issued a global vaccine mandate!

[Nutty]

My employer (55k or so global employees) has just issued a global vaccine mandate!

Interesting...

I have wondered whether vaccine mandates would start to be driven by companies (rather than the government) either from a health & safety risk perspective or from a sick leave/isolation cost perspective.

I'm sure if you start doing some calculations that you'd find that the covid risk to an unvaccinated person attending work with more than a handful of people elevates the risk associated with work to a level above that which would have been generally acceptable in most industries pre-covid - I did some very rough calculations last year around what sort of numbers we could have back in the office (pre-vaccinations and pre-delta) and it wasn't very many to exceed the tolerable risk level I was working to. Employers are going to look at what measures they have to have in place to reduce risk and the cost of those measures and may conclude that mandating the free vaccine is the most cost effective option, even if they have to lose employees and train up new ones.

[danm]

I guess the next question here is: if my employer asks me to work from a busy office but does not make it mandatory for office staff to be vaccinated, could I sue them if I catch Covid at work from an unvaccinated colleague? They have a duty of care and it seems that once other organisations have proven that it is reasonably practicable to ensure that all staff are vaccinated, it becomes easier to argue that not doing so is not doing all that could be done to meet that duty.

I'm looking at this hypothetically, I think in the UK at least we seem to be avoiding the need for mandates, and I'm very uncomfortable with forcing people to be vaccinated even if I think it's best to get the jab personally.

[Paul B]

My employer (55k or so global employees) has just issued a global vaccine mandate!

Do you mind sharing what you do (feel free to say no)?

[Fultonius]

Large multinational energy / engineering company with a lot of site based (on and offshore) workers. Rhymes with Good.