[TobyD]

See newspaper reports:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/lake-and-peak-districts-considers-ban-on-tourist-cars-2bv2p95dj?shareToken=e1c94e05439aa2d941522f985fcc766d

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/nov/14/tourists-cars-may-be-banned-from-most-popular-parts-of-lake-district?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

I'm intrigued to know how feasible this is,  how it'd be enforced, but also how people feel about it.  I think I'd be in favour of it, anything to ease the impact of thoughtless parking on verges and general pressure of numbers would surely be a good thing?

[Fiend]

I'm going to out on a speculative limb and predict it will be a complete shit-show whatever happens 

[teestub]

Would depend if I can get four pads on the bus down Borrowdale to the Stone! Would seem a lot more practical for a day out walking than a day out bouldering. They do need to do something in the Lakes though, it’s madness in the summer now.

As touched on in the article, providing sufficient parking at the hubs where your buses are going to start from would seem to be a major hurdle.

[Bradders]

Surely this is just a kneejerk reaction to the last two summers, which have been highly unusual due to travel restrictions? Unlikely to actually happen now the hoards can sod off back to Benidorm.

[Johnny Brown]

I think for the Lake District it makes a lot of sense.  A lot of dead-end valleys with old, narrow roads often flanked by walls, built to serve still-working farms, to which people travel long distances. The issue is grid lock as much as parking.

There are very few comparable places in the Peak, and it sounds like much is being made of some pretty vague comments. Yes I'd quite enjoy cycling on closed roads as a one-off, but on any sensible circuit from Sheff the issue is the A57. Much of the verge parking 'problem' around Stanage has been created by the silo working of the park authority and the highways management. The park see the car parks as a cash cow, but parking on the verges between car parks is mostly perfectly legal. Increasing charges and enforcement just pushes people on to verges, especially when machines require £4.75, cash only, in 2021. Provided capacity is only actually exceeded a few days a year; twenty years ago there was huge capacity for low-impact overflow parking on verges which was removed by the bunding of long strips by highways without consultation with the park or users. Again this has pushed parking into less suitable areas. And policy needs to take a holisitic approach across the wider area - limiting parking at Stanage will just send people south to Burbage or Froggatt, and needs to account for the location. Regularly closing Ringinglow road would need big new car parks at Ringinglow, Redmires, Moscar and Fox House, in the order of the capacity around Fairholmes and Ladybower, plus big improvements in public transport.

On the other hand attempts to ease the 'general pressure of numbers' are short-sighted. Casual international travel is likely to be increasingly socially unacceptable over the next twenty years. And the internet now means beautiful places advertise themselves, whether or not the local tourist board like it. The Glover report called for greater accessibility across the social spectrum, Covid saw them arrive and suddenly we're talking about reducing numbers. Going forward restrictions need to be based on a bigger picture of enabling access while reducing emissions.

[danm]

Nah, as an ex Lakes local it's been steadily building up for years. Informal parking spots have been getting filled in/taken away but you still end up with queues of traffic down Langdale and Borrowdale etc. On the one hand we all want the freedom of just jumping in a car and being at the crag, on the other a big part of what makes the place special is taken away by the traffic, fumes and queues. Those issues will still be here once Covid is over. The problem has always been poor planning, funding and implementation of public transport initiatives within National Parks. For a start, where are the zero emission buses with bike and large luggage racks on the back, to encourage cyclists, backpackers and climbers to ditch the car? Back in the day my granddad would go on a family holiday to Swanage by train, and take his sailing dinghy which went in the goods carriage. I shit you not. It's all about weaning society off its car addiction.

[Bonjoy]

Depends where and how it is implemented. The only example I can think of in place in the Peak is the closure of the dam road past Fairholmes.
When the road was closed initially a park and ride bus service was put in place. For whatever reasons this is now no longer in place. Nobody without an ebike would walk a bouldering pad up to Grinah at the weekend now. I now come in via the Woodhead i.e. I drive twice the distance to park on a different road.

[dr_botnik]

Wouldn't want to be driving the bus that had to negotiate hard Knott's pass, especially if there were a load of cyclists on the incline

[teestub]

Maybe something like a Unimog for Hardknott and Wrynose to save them having to change the clutch every other week!

[seankenny]

I never climb in the Lakes because it's such a pain to drive to from London. It is, however, not that hard to reach on the train, so in theory weekend hits (to the southern Lakes at least) should be possible... assuming I can get transport back to the station on a Sunday afternoon. As such anything that reduces traffic and increases public transport would be a great thing from my point of view.

[lukeyboy]

I'm all for it, but if cars are to be banned then viable alternatives need to be in place first I.e. sufficient parking at hubs then affordable, regular, and ideally green, public transport from there to the places people want to visit.

It's no good banning cars if there's no other sensible way to get there and travel around, you are then essentially just closing the park to all except locals.

[Paul B]

Would depend if I can get four pads on the bus down Borrowdale to the Stone!

Can these not just be thrown underneath (this was the suggestion for transporting the [uninsured] hire bikes recently in northern Spain which we declined)?

[SA Chris]

It's no good banning cars if there's no other sensible way to get there and travel around, you are then essentially just closing the park to all except locals.

This was the approach round here https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/aberdeen-aberdeenshire/3000151/new-traffic-rules-at-loch-muick-and-linn-o-dee-for-seven-months-to-prevent-overcrowding-at-popular-beauty-spots/

Shuttle busses from Braemar and Ballater would be an easy alternative.

[lagerstarfish]

I'm going to out on a speculative limb and predict it will be a complete shit-show whatever happens 

footpaths covered in cyclists?

[SA Chris]

I'm going to out on a speculative limb and predict it will be a complete shit-show whatever happens 

That's due to lack of toilet facilities surely?

[Ballsofcottonwool]

This was the approach round here https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/aberdeen-aberdeenshire/3000151/new-traffic-rules-at-loch-muick-and-linn-o-dee-for-seven-months-to-prevent-overcrowding-at-popular-beauty-spots/
Shuttle busses from Braemar and Ballater would be an easy alternative.

Our experience at was that people just left so early that the warden hadn't even started work when the carpark was full so was unable to tell anyone to put up the car park full/road closed sign.

A much better solution would be gated access with ANPR cameras like they use at the local recycling centre. Residents can be reigistered and always get access. Tourists that want access can book online in advance to pay for the system.

[TobyD]

This was the approach round here https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/aberdeen-aberdeenshire/3000151/new-traffic-rules-at-loch-muick-and-linn-o-dee-for-seven-months-to-prevent-overcrowding-at-popular-beauty-spots/
Shuttle busses from Braemar and Ballater would be an easy alternative.

Our experience at was that people just left so early that the warden hadn't even started work when the carpark was full so was unable to tell anyone to put up the car park full/road closed sign.

A much better solution would be gated access with ANPR cameras like they use at the local recycling centre. Residents can be reigistered and always get access. Tourists that want access can book online in advance to pay for the system.

It'd be difficult to get it to work in the Peak,  but something like that must be workable.  I'd guess toll roads are extremely likely in the next 10-20 years as fuel tax becomes less of a source of income for the treasury with the increase in electric car ownership.  I'd guess most likely on major motorways initially,  but it could work in a national park. 

[SA Chris]

A much better solution would be gated access with ANPR cameras like they use at the local recycling centre. Residents can be reigistered and always get access. Tourists that want access can book online in advance to pay for the system.

Possible solution, but doesn't really solve te problem, just transfers it and people park on the verge before the gate.

Glen Doll seems to be developing similar issues.

[Ballsofcottonwool]

I would propose gates at Bridge Of Muick on the B976, that is where the road closed signs had been put up when we drove home. Who is going to park up on the verge nearly 8 miles from the carpark?

Glen Doll, yes its got so busy we just avoid, Glen Esk we don't bother unless we can get the kids out of the house by 8:30
 to be at the car park just after 9 and thats only 18 miles from our house.

[abarro81]

Tourists that want access can book online in advance to pay for the system.

So you have to decide now where you're gonna go climbing on March 19 2022 to reserve your spot. Sounds like great fun.

[SA Chris]

Can't be worse than the present system - carpark full - shut the road. At least if you try and book the day or week before then you know if there is place or not.

Still think shuttle is better option.

[Wellsy]

I'd happily use public transport in the Peak more than I do (and I already make a pretty big effort there) if public transport in the Peak wasn't ridiculous shit in terms of access.

[TobyD]

Tourists that want access can book online in advance to pay for the system.

So you have to decide now where you're gonna go climbing on March 19 2022 to reserve your spot. Sounds like great fun.

Its broadly what you have to do in several  US  parks, though, most famously Hueco Tanks.  Theres no doubt that it's less convenient,  but arguably better than a totally overrun and trashed national park?

[dunnyg]

Good weather is a bit more predictable in hueco tanks than borrowdale,...

[SA Chris]

I'm not saying it's the right approach, but those prepared to go regardless of weather book well in advance and get the first places, anyone wanting to go ad hoc checks availability and gets any places left. Not ideal, but preferable to the current alternative of driving x miles to find the car park closed and facing an 8 mile walk / cycle to the car park before you start approach to wherever.

[mrjonathanr]

Good weather is a bit more predictable in hueco tanks than borrowdale,...

On the contrary, the weather in Borrowdale is highly predictable, with Seatoller having > 1.5m annual precipitation https://en.climate-data.org/europe/united-kingdom/england/seatoller-70614/

Scroll down for rainfall bar chart. 🙂

[dunnyg]

So when is it going to be good weather in borrowdale? If I book a year ahead in a good month, it seems I have at best a 2/3 chance of getting no rain. Not the worst odds to be fair! Anyway  soZ.

[mrjonathanr]

So when is it going to be good weather in borrowdale? If I book a year ahead in a good month, it seems I have at best a 2/3 chance of getting no rain. Not the worst odds to be fair! Anyway  soZ.

June 23, 2023.

You heard it here first.

[Paul B]

Its broadly what you have to do in several  US  parks, though, most famously Hueco Tanks.  Theres no doubt that it's less convenient,  but arguably better than a totally overrun and trashed national park?

The US model is something I'd hate to see replicated here as IMO it completely detracts from those places (I can imagine the new Yosemite big wall permit completely sucks, adding yet another hurdle/more pressure to actually getting up things).

Their idea of conservation seems a little odd to me too with "this boulder gully is getting a bit polished from people walking up and down, let's replace it with a large obtrusive steel staircase" etc.

[Durbs]

Booking ahead compared to Hueco isn't comparable as I don't think you can actually stay in Hueco - whereas you can in the Peak. So a family camping in the Peak would have to pre-book all their car parks for the week, which is just impractical.

Another issue with parking vs public transport is for a group/family of 4, looking at current transport prices, it's cheaper to drive and park than buy 4x train tickets, and much more convenient too.

So public transport would need to be subsidised, and suspect car parks too.

That £4.75 cash-only charge is just ridiculous. It's 2021.

[SA Chris]

So when is it going to be good weather in borrowdale? If I book a year ahead in a good month, it seems I have at best a 2/3 chance of getting no rain. Not the worst odds to be fair! Anyway  soZ.

I think Glen Nevis is wetter? All you need to do is get on the existing shuttle bus from Fort William to guarantee a soaking.

[Fiend]

So when is it going to be good weather in borrowdale? If I book a year ahead in a good month, it seems I have at best a 2/3 chance of getting no rain. Not the worst odds to be fair! Anyway  soZ.

June 23, 2023.

You heard it here first.

Don't know whether to call bullshit, or call "crippling heatwave that day that means even if you go to Goat to escape the sun it's still 28 in the shade and good luck shaking up Footless Crow in that" 

[a13c]

I'm sure I read an article about how the pre booking of access to Yosemite has greatly increased the injury rate as people aren't prepared to back off there chosen route if the weather turns bad as there is no option to try again tomorrow.
For us I guess this equates to people climbing on and damaging damp/wet rock?