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Brandenburg Gate finally falls (Read 27609 times)

Will Hunt

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#75 Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
November 08, 2021, 01:06:34 pm
I wonder what grade it'll be once someone finds the kneebars.

Aussiegav

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#76 Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
November 08, 2021, 01:07:22 pm
I think the reason it went so quickly is due to a number factors;
its the evolvement of the sport;

- the styles of climbing have evolved - as someone mentioned above
- the preparation for the send -  tactics
- advancements in training knowledge and training facilities
- equipment
- also the psychological barrier. Will has been on a tear this year so going on this isn't really pushing 9b+/9c so the mindset/confidence of sending is greater.


IMO, I think the logical thing should have been to take the line as high up as it can go (25-30m). Being the first ascensionist and having that climbing ability, it seems a missed opportunity to make Brandenburg Gate a longer/better  and possibly more sustained route.


edshakey

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#77 Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
November 08, 2021, 01:11:25 pm
IMO, I think the logical thing should have been to take the line as high up as it can go (25-30m). Being the first ascensionist and having that climbing ability, it seems a missed opportunity to make Brandenburg Gate a longer/better  and possibly more sustained route.

Any chance of him going back and doing that? Or reckon he's done with the tor for a while

Will Hunt

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#78 Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
November 08, 2021, 02:19:49 pm
I've just shown the footage to Daisy and the verdict is as follows:

Quote
You what? He's just climbed a 2m bit of rock.
...
Doesn't it go higher?

After I showed her the topo and explained about Mecca Extension etc:

Quote
Wouldn't you just go up to the next blob?

He's so low they could have passed his sandwiches up to him.

I'm annoyed that you made me watch that.


I love this woman.

Wellsy

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#79 Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
November 08, 2021, 02:22:32 pm
Not a bouldering fan I take it :D

Adam Lincoln

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#80 Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
November 08, 2021, 02:23:03 pm
I've just shown the footage to Daisy and the verdict is as follows:

Quote
You what? He's just climbed a 2m bit of rock.
...
Doesn't it go higher?

After I showed her the topo and explained about Mecca Extension etc:

Quote
Wouldn't you just go up to the next blob?

He's so low they could have passed his sandwiches up to him.

I'm annoyed that you made me watch that.


I love this woman.

Don’t know where she gets it from? 🤣😉

spidermonkey09

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#81 Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
November 08, 2021, 02:36:00 pm

IMO, I think the logical thing should have been to take the line as high up as it can go (25-30m). Being the first ascensionist and having that climbing ability, it seems a missed opportunity to make Brandenburg Gate a longer/better  and possibly more sustained route.

But isnt that the thing, it wouldn't make it any better, it would only make it longer. They aren't the same thing. It would be like having a 7a+ that finishes at a logical jug, with a 6a extension. Seems pretty pointless to me.

andy moles

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#82 Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
November 08, 2021, 02:40:54 pm
Well I guess this ascent is symbolic, the next generation of British sport climbing has truly arrived. Major props to Will Bosi for leading the charge.

However, you have to feel a little for our top performers when this is the substance of the myth, the quality of last great problem that (no longer) remains.

It looks sooooo shit  :lol:

jwi

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#83 Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
November 08, 2021, 03:01:50 pm
Re: lack of strength gains since the 90's. Were people 1 arming edges with 20-30kg in their other hand back then?

edit: it seems they all concentrate a lot more on mobility these days too, especially the comp climbers.

I saw an interview with Alex Huber, who did a very early 9a+ thanks to singular focus on training and should be in a good position to know, that no one of today's cohort comes even close to Wolfgang Güllich in terms of raw strength. Maybe it is self-serving mythologising, but I do not get that impression.

I also remember ot have read some self reported training performances of the great alpinist of the 30s, both on edges and on pullups (alas cannot find them right now). If they were true, Herman Buhl et al where definitely a lot stronger than I ever been. (But then again, some self reported cardio performances by the great Reinhold Messner are obvious lies)

remus

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#84 Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
November 08, 2021, 03:15:44 pm
I saw an interview with Alex Huber, who did a very early 9a+ thanks to singular focus on training and should be in a good position to know, that no one of today's cohort comes even close to Wolfgang Güllich in terms of raw strength. Maybe it is self-serving mythologising, but I do not get that impression.

Without some actual numbers I'd be very skeptical. It's just way too easy to look back at these things with rose tinted glasses (Im as guilty of this as anyone).

andy moles

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#85 Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
November 08, 2021, 03:17:09 pm
that no one of today's cohort comes even close to Wolfgang Güllich in terms of raw strength.

I find that hard to believe. Maybe they haven't got much/any stronger, but why in spite of ever improving training knowledge would everyone have failed to get close?

jwi

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#86 Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
November 08, 2021, 03:22:28 pm
.

ali k

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#87 Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
November 08, 2021, 03:36:14 pm
that no one of today's cohort comes even close to Wolfgang Güllich in terms of raw strength.
I find that hard to believe. Maybe they haven't got much/any stronger, but why in spite of ever improving training knowledge would everyone have failed to get close?
Michael Hawkins still holds the Kilnsey Crag Race record, unbroken since 1982. I have no idea if that's relevant to the discussion  :tumble:

spidermonkey09

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#88 Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
November 08, 2021, 03:42:22 pm

Without some actual numbers I'd be very skeptical. It's just way too easy to look back at these things with rose tinted glasses (Im as guilty of this as anyone).

This.

There is a similar debate about fast bowling in cricket, with one camp maintaining that the West Indian and Australian fast bowlers in the 70s and 80s were the quickest ever and the current crop are carthorses by comparison. Its infinitely more likely that the speeds attributed to the 70s/80s bowlers were inflated, they looked faster due to the way they were played (badly), the lack of safety equipment gave them an aura todays bowlers dont have etc etc.

Liamhutch89

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#89 Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
November 08, 2021, 03:44:32 pm
Every sport with hard numbers shows improvement over time. Every sport without hard numbers has fans romanticising about the past.

abarro81

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#90 Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
November 08, 2021, 03:46:41 pm
it wouldn't make it any better, it would only make it longer. They aren't the same thing.

IMO the best routes always start at the bottom and go to the top. Occasional exceptions exist for rock quality, vegetation etc. At least this one is at the tor, so it was never going to be one of the best anyway! Obvious finish from the Mecca chains would be up Hajj, which while relatively easy for Will, would still be dropable (I guess comparable to doing a short 8b to a big jug then having a 7c+ headwall to put on top - you shouldn't drop it, and it maybe doesn't change the grade, but it still adds spice)

Bonjoy

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#91 Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
November 08, 2021, 04:00:52 pm
 :agree: .. but obviously it makes total sense for Will to finish at the Mecca belay for now and bank the LGP. I dare say adding extensions won't be a massive challenge for him (more an assortment of cherries on the cake), but they'll be something to do in lieu of other obvious local challenges. 

gme

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#92 Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
November 08, 2021, 04:01:17 pm

And its nothing to do with technique, climbers are way stronger than the top boys were in the 90s. Much much stronger.
I assume you're being deliberately hyperbolic. It's obviously not an either/or. Both have increased and neither has an agreed on means of measuring relative advancement. So to a great extent it's a matter of opinion which type of improvement you see as being more instrumental in grade advancements. You've obviously pinned your colours to the strength mast to the exclusion of technique being a relevant factor. Having climbed with lots of people way better and way stronger than me for decades I've seen significant gains in both general technique and strength. And I do think yesterday's climbers would have achieved more with a little better technique than today's climbers would with a little extra strength.

Hasty part of my post which didnt come out well. I agree technique has improved but it was suggested that this was the major thing and that todays top climbers are only a bit stronger and its technique thats the difference and i dont agree with that, they are much stronger now. What Malc was doing back in the day is nothing for the best lads now, part of a training session.

I dont agree with saying that technique was bad back in the 80s and 90s though some of the best technical climbers i have ever seen where back then {Marc and Antoine}. Most of the top climbers had superb technique. Other than the new school heels, knees and compression, i think strength and fitness has come on more than technique, especially if you counter in equipment improvements.

Like it or not the cutting edge of climbing is physical and there is a point where no amount of extra technique will get you up the hardest stuff.

gme

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#93 Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
November 08, 2021, 04:07:16 pm
Re: lack of strength gains since the 90's. Were people 1 arming edges with 20-30kg in their other hand back then?

edit: it seems they all concentrate a lot more on mobility these days too, especially the comp climbers.

I saw an interview with Alex Huber, who did a very early 9a+ thanks to singular focus on training and should be in a good position to know, that no one of today's cohort comes even close to Wolfgang Güllich in terms of raw strength. Maybe it is self-serving mythologising, but I do not get that impression.



Rose tinted specs. Todays wads are another notch up. Megos did AD in how many goes?

The sport is a little more mature now though so the gaps dont look as big on paper.

jwi

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#94 Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
November 08, 2021, 04:15:06 pm



Rose tinted specs. Todays wads are another notch up. Megos did AD in how many goes?

The sport is a little more mature now though so the gaps dont look as big on paper.

Megos is a lot better climber than Güllich ever was. Look at any video of Wolfgang climbing if you have doubts. Stronger? I am far from convinced.

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#95 Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
November 08, 2021, 04:21:06 pm
My point in the other thread is that you can't afford to be lacking in either nowadays. I think in the 90s particularly  advances in technique lagged behind advances in strength somewhat, which is totally understandable given the types of training that had just been developed. There were brilliant technicians but they arguably tended to not also be the very strongest climbers. Now the top climbers are undoubtedly both.

Quote
Other than the new school heels, knees and compression....
I mean, can you really argue that yesterday's best were technically brilliant without having mastered these skills which are by modern standards fairly basic and not considered new school by anyone under 30. I see new school technical brilliance as more about speed, accuracy, coordination, and a total grasp of the full range of climbing skills on all angles.

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#96 Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
November 08, 2021, 04:27:16 pm
Megos is a lot better climber than Güllich ever was. Look at any video of Wolfgang climbing if you have doubts. Stronger? I am far from convinced.

Im sure Megos is pretty technically good, but AD took him 2 hours whereas it took Wolfgang 11 days. Maybe Wolfgang was stronger in some very particular ways, but I really struggle to think of him as a stronger climber overall.

gme

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#97 Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
November 08, 2021, 04:31:30 pm
My point in the other thread is that you can't afford to be lacking in either nowadays. I think in the 90s particularly  advances in technique lagged behind advances in strength somewhat, which is totally understandable given the types of training that had just been developed. There were brilliant technicians but they arguably tended to not also be the very strongest climbers. Now the top climbers are undoubtedly both.

Quote
Other than the new school heels, knees and compression....
I mean, can you really argue that yesterday's best were technically brilliant without having mastered these skills which are by modern standards fairly basic and not considered new school by anyone under 30. I see new school technical brilliance as more about speed, accuracy, coordination, and a total grasp of the full range of climbing skills on all angles.

A bit like that old school route mutation that Will just took 40 days on. Needs to get working on his technique.

gme

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#98 Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
November 08, 2021, 04:37:06 pm
Megos is a lot better climber than Güllich ever was. Look at any video of Wolfgang climbing if you have doubts. Stronger? I am far from convinced.

Im sure Megos is pretty technically good, but AD took him 2 hours whereas it took Wolfgang 11 days. Maybe Wolfgang was stronger in some very particular ways, but I really struggle to think of him as a stronger climber overall.

Jerrys comment to me when he came back from spending some time with Megos at Cafe Kraft, and out in the jura, was that he wasnt just stronger and better than his generation were, but was in an utterly different league. Having watched Megos on the school board when it was set at the wrong angle i would agree.

Bradders

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#99 Re: Brandenburg Gate finally falls
November 08, 2021, 04:40:03 pm
it wouldn't make it any better, it would only make it longer. They aren't the same thing.

IMO the best routes always start at the bottom and go to the top. Occasional exceptions exist for rock quality, vegetation etc. At least this one is at the tor, so it was never going to be one of the best anyway! Obvious finish from the Mecca chains would be up Hajj, which while relatively easy for Will, would still be dropable (I guess comparable to doing a short 8b to a big jug then having a 7c+ headwall to put on top - you shouldn't drop it, and it maybe doesn't change the grade, but it still adds spice)

This, 100%.

The idea of stopping when the difficulty eases just makes no sense, I don't care how hard the overall climb is. To compare with say Malham, many of the routes off the catwalk are quite short, but they stop when the difficulty significantly increases, not the other way round. Stopping at a decrease is nothing but a cop out.

I suspect what's really happening with Jerry's comment is that he and others may have worried they'd fall off if they carried on, but if so it's not so easy then is it!

Fair enough to Will for simply climbing what was the original vision, but if I were him I'd be straight back there to take it to the top of the crag. Frankly it's a bit embarrasing for British climbing that this clutch of some of our hardest routes finish in such a poor way, Mutation being the obvious exception, and Evolution as well given the extensions to that do add significant difficulty.

 

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