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Calling Of The Gri . . . . . . . . nding?? (Read 9746 times)

mrjonathanr

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Just interested in peoples views. Wires in the wall weren’t my fave belay anchor tbh

A stake would be less contentious, though I don’t have any knowledge as to its practicality, sounds difficult to secure safely from what you say.

petejh

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Wouldn’t be difficult - would just involve drilling a big deep 20mm’ish hole in the bedrock above warpath and pumping in resin and placing a stake. Less contentious perhaps for those without the nuance of thinking to understand that it might look traditional but it’s just a massive bolt!


Some of those infamous routes on slate with a little rusty iron bollocks-removing spike as your last runner 20feet below the crux could do with upgrading to a nice 4ft long stainless Pembers stake drilled into the cliff. 👍

Fiend

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.....with a buttplug on the end  :yes: :ninja:

petejh

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Slug ClubButt Plug Special

duncan

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TL,DR: drilled anchors have a role in a few specific circumstances at Gogarth/Rhoscolyn. I would support the removal of drilled and/or glued quasi-bolts on existing trad. routes.

I've belayed on the quasi-bolts at Rhoscolyn where only alternative seemed to be the stone wall. Because of the lack of options and to stop people using the wall I don't see why proper bolts shouldn't be placed here. The Strand has had quasi-bolt abseil anchors added to the first belay but, unless I've misunderstood this, no replacements for peg runners. I have climbed the Strand top pitch and hobbled back to the gearing up point but I'd be happy to use fixed anchors here. 

I’ve respectively climbed, failed on, and belayed someone on Citadel, Fifteen Men... and The Cruise. They are all fine without their original pegs and have no need for drilled or glued fixed gear. I would be happy to take an angle grinder to them if I could trust myself with one. I've no experience of Barbarossa so can't comment. Have any other Gogarth routes had these quasi-bolts added as peg replacements? 

DAVETHOMAS90

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Better than a carrot, but in my experience they absorb a lot of oil.

DAVETHOMAS90

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Joking aside, there's some pretty good debate in this thread.

Interesting with the thread about Burn for you/The Last Dance, I think it gives some insight into the relationship between climber and wall - and the passions expressed by Drake and Bock.

Think about the route names too.

Trying to preserve Supercool as the aid climb it was, is in my view completely understandable. We try to develop all the varied skills that bring the climber "closer" - whether that means achieving a 5 second hang on the lettuce edge, or learning how to bounce test a pin before weighting it.

Going back to the question of "stealth" bolts, there are a few other things to bear in mind.

As above - put the real thing in, and invite the debate.

Drilling peg placements in cracks, ruins placements for gear. A bolt can be placed in any solid piece of rock.

Cementing pegs in can just hide the corrosion.

Using stainless steel deforms the peg, so that hammering one into a uniform drilled hole actually leaves a peg which is often really easy to remove. Stainless pegs often then sheer at the eye, too.

andy moles

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I’m more than up for a debate and you can pick away at my view

Speaking of which, you never replied to my last post in Fiend's other troll the other thread. I was just getting into that  ;)

Essentially I agree with Pete H on this, in that I don't have a fundamental objection to some fixed gear on predominantly trad routes, but it should be properly done and clear to everyone what it is. Unlike Pete though I'm not totally against the type of bolt/peg used recently in North Wales, because the factors of being visually unobtrusive and respecting a now-rotted placement that influenced the original character of the route do, at least in some cases, count for something. It's not like they're all that deceptive, word gets around.

My main point is that I don't see why there should be a bright line between sport and trad, or all fixed gear vs. no fixed gear. Does it spin people out because we use two different grading systems?



Briefly, on the lamenting of fewer hard characters: fuck that. Whatever may have been lost in modern climbing culture compared to the 80s, I'm glad there's now less machismo.


And finally, in answer to the original post, I would be totally happy for the bolts on Citadel, Fifteen Men and The Cruise to be removed.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2021, 08:13:43 am by andy moles »

abarro81

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Hold on, main cliff got bolted too?! Haha. North Wales trad climbing is a fucking joke.

cheque

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Briefly, on the lamenting of fewer hard characters: fuck that. Whatever may have been lost in modern climbing culture compared to the 80s, I'm glad there's now less machismo.

 :agree: If I witnessed someone pull that “wait ‘til it’s crowded at St. Govan’s, solo to the crux of The Butcher, loudly pretend to get gripped then continue up in a manner that reveals it was all an act” trick I’d feel embarrassed for them more than anything.

andy moles

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Hold on, main cliff got bolted too?!

Lest we get a touch hysterical here, there is one resined pegbolt on Citadel.

northern yob

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I’m more than up for a debate and you can pick away at my view

Speaking of which, you never replied to my last post in Fiend's other troll the other thread. I was just getting into that  ;)

Essentially I agree with Pete H on this, in that I don't have a fundamental objection to some fixed gear on predominantly trad routes, but it should be properly done and clear to everyone what it is. Unlike Pete though I'm not totally against the type of bolt/peg used recently in North Wales, because the factors of being visually unobtrusive and respecting a now-rotted placement that influenced the original character of the route do, at least in some cases, count for something. It's not like they're all that deceptive, word gets around.

My main point is that I don't see why there should be a bright line between sport and trad, or all fixed gear vs. no fixed gear. Does it spin people out because we use two different grading systems?



Briefly, on the lamenting of fewer hard characters: fuck that. Whatever may have been lost in modern climbing culture compared to the 80s, I'm pretty glad there's now less machismo.


And finally, in answer to the original post, I would be totally happy for the bolts on Citadel, Fifteen Men and The Cruise to be removed.

Ok much as this feels like going round in circles I’ll try to give you my view in simple terms (well as simple as I can)

I feel that trad climbing should’ve moved on from the 60’s, 70’s and 80’s I don’t think that placing fixed gear on new routes is something that should be happening, either step up and accept the challenge or leave it for someone else.

I like to clip bolts, I’m not against them, I don’t particularly like hybrid routes I prefer one or the other.

I’m against fixed gear (pegs and to a lesser degree threads)because they rot and deteriorate, they don’t stay consistent for everyone. Yes bolts fix this but they involve a drill, which In my world on a sea cliff or mountain crag isn’t acceptable. This is somewhat hypocritical because I’ve been involved in putting up routes where we have used a drill.

I very much get the nuance and respect people’s views and why they have them with regard to mixed routes. In my view the whole Gogarth debacle shows exactly why there needs to be a bright line. People are swapping old pegs which aren’t essential  to protect routes, with BOLTS.

This sets a precedent, if I climb a new route and don’t fancy a bold E8 is it ok to put a bolt in and have a nice E6? No why not? How about if I find a feature and put a peg bolt in it? You can change the grades for whatever you like, if you can’t climb it in it’s natural state I think you should walk away. There’s limited rock and certain areas should be left as crucibles to certain styles, if we don’t do this it becomes a free for all, fill your boots fuck show. I wouldn’t  necessarily be against a crucible of mixed routes…. Quarries maybe, some peak limestone, but definitely not sea cliffs or mountain crags.

What I think is really disappointing is that the peg fairies are doing their  own thing, if there is consensus then fair enough(I think I’m in the minority) but to not ask and just do shows a real lack of respect for the community as a whole, if we all acted like that it would be a right mess and it’s one of the reasons I probably won’t be going down there with an angle grinder. Hardline or not I respect other peoples views wether I agree with them or not.

With regard to lamenting hard men, I said I miss characters not hard men. I like life to be diverse, that’s means hard men, it means weirdo’s it means people and ideals I don’t agree with. You can take your bland meh community it’s boring and not for me, but each to their own. There’s place for a little machismo in my world.

abarro81

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Hold on, main cliff got bolted too?!

Lest we get a touch hysterical here, there is one resined pegbolt on Citadel.

i.e. Gogarth main cliff has a brand new a bolt smack in the middle of it, and by the sounds of it not even for a belay. I'm not averse to some "mixed" routes (e.g. Serpentine), or sport routes with big runouts (e.g. Groove Train), and those are both based on historical quirks to some extent, but I'm not convinced that retrobolting classic British sea cliffs is the way forward for this. This isn't replacing an old bolt in a designer danger route on the slate or down Avon gorge, or even replacing the drilled pegs on the ramp at Avon with bolts, which would seem a more valid thing to do because it's a weird urban mish-mash crag.

ali k

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I feel that trad climbing should’ve moved on from the 60’s, 70’s and 80’s I don’t think that placing fixed gear on new routes is something that should be happening, either step up and accept the challenge or leave it for someone else.
Quote
I’m against fixed gear (pegs and to a lesser degree threads) because they rot and deteriorate, they don’t stay consistent for everyone. Yes bolts fix this but they involve a drill, which In my world on a sea cliff or mountain crag isn’t acceptable.
Quote
In my view the whole Gogarth debacle shows exactly why there needs to be a bright line. People are swapping old pegs which aren’t essential to protect routes, with BOLTS.

This sums up where I am in this debate. No one on here would accept placing a bolt or a ‘peg-bolt’ on a sea cliff to turn what was potentially a run-out E3 into, say, an E1. Quite rightly. And I don’t see why it should be any different at higher grades.

andy moles

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There’s limited rock and certain areas should be left as crucibles to certain styles, if we don’t do this it becomes a free for all, fill your boots fuck show. I wouldn’t  necessarily be against a crucible of mixed routes…. Quarries maybe, some peak limestone, but definitely not sea cliffs or mountain crags.

It might have got a bit circular but I think your reply is worthwhile, it shows we don't actually disagree all that much.

I broadly agree that certain areas should be left as crucibles of certain styles, if only as a buttress against the Wedge©, and that most mountain and sea cliffs should remain wholly trad. (I say most - what about LPT, for example, or Tunnel Wall?) Hence my agreement that Main Cliff should be fixed-gear free. Upper Tier is a bit less clear for me, as its character sits somewhere between sea cliff and outcrop, which is the kind of edge-case distinction that causes problems for any rigid rule (witness people worming around the status of Diabaig or Creag Dubh).

As far as your concession to having a crucible for mixed routes - the slate quarries have been pretty much defined as such from the start (if they had to go one way or the other, I know which it would be), and I would argue that limestone, not just in the Peak, is pretty often suited to it, as numerous examples all over the country show.

On the point of respecting the community, I totally agree. However...


With regard to lamenting hard men, I said I miss characters not hard men. I like life to be diverse, that’s means hard men, it means weirdo’s it means people and ideals I don’t agree with. You can take your bland meh community it’s boring and not for me, but each to their own. There’s place for a little machismo in my world.

Whoa there.

You may not have used the word 'hard', but it's hardly a misrepresentation of the sort of no-nonsense domineering masculinity you were talking about.

It's a bit off target to call my community 'bland meh boring' just because I think it's a good thing there is less machismo in climbing culture. You're basically saying that either we have machismo or we have blandness, which is hopefully not what you actually think.

It's ironic to defend machismo under the guise of celebrating diversity, when it was almost certainly machismo in the climbing culture of the past that stunted diversity. All good if you're one of the lads, massively off-putting if you're not. Yes yes, snowflake millennial, etc.


andy moles

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No one on here would accept placing a bolt or a ‘peg-bolt’ on a sea cliff to turn what was potentially a run-out E3 into, say, an E1.

This is a reasonable point, but if you tweak the circumstances to 'placing a bolt to replace a rusted-out peg to turn what was once an E1 that had become a run-out E3 back into an E1' you might have a less strong consensus.

reeve

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Northern Yob and Ali K, just curious, does your ‘no fixed gear’ ideal extend to in-situ threads which can’t be placed on lead?

...including many on this forum even if they're sometimes too slovenly to take part in all important ethical debates...

I'm not sure if I was meant to be the target of that but you have pulled me in!


In my view we should aspire to zero-fixed gear on all trad routes, for reasons of maintaining the nature of the challenge and in part as a statement against insidious bolting as it happening in North Wales. I’d like to see news features on new routes and important repeats emphasising the amount of fixed gear placed / replaced so that this is more transparent and might act as a disincentive to those tempted to place (what I would consider to be) too much of it.

However, I’m not as pure as Northern Yob or Ali K (maybe more aligned to you Andy M?). These are the caveats where, if they’re persuasive enough, I’d think that a bolt-peg or similar would be acceptable or even preferable:
1.   as a lower-off if this helps preserve an ecologically important crag-top environment
2.   where a route was always destined a sport-route but before there were bolts (i.e. a route which would have been fully-bolted if only it had been first climbed in a later era, and where it is in a suitable location for a sport route [i.e. not anywhere at Rhoscolyn])
3.   if the deterioration of a crucial peg means that a route will become defunct, and the original peg was always a peg and not a bolt, and a(n actual traditional) peg replacement would work but only as a temporary measure because of the likelihood of it rusting and the route will be significantly less balanced / enjoyable without addressing the deteriorated peg.

This should be clear from the above but to avoid ambiguity, I would not condone the placement or replacement of fixed gear on a trad route where there is alternative trad gear available which would stop you from hitting the floor, no matter how pumpy it is to place or how long the potential fall would be. I’m also not into increased fixed gear to help make routes more popular as if you extend this argument to it’s logical conclusion then you could make a case for bolting literally any route.

I can’t think of any specific routes where my criteria are mutually incompatible, but I’m sure ‘hole-picker Pete’ will be along in a minute to prove me otherwise  ;D

PS. I’m bland myself but I like reading about characters more than I enjoy having to tolerate machismo in real life

andy moles

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I will also waft into this discussion, aimed at no one in particular, the fact that while debate rages about resined pegbolts, there are still old-fashioned non-stainless pitons being hammered into new routes in North Wales.  :slap:

teestub

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There’s place for a little machismo in my world.

Well you were named Britain’s Manliest Man by The Sun, so that much is obvious 😄

northern yob

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Whoa there.

You may not have used the word 'hard', but it's hardly a misrepresentation of the sort of no-nonsense domineering masculinity you were talking about.

It's a bit off target to call my community 'bland meh boring' just because I think it's a good thing there is less machismo in climbing culture. You're basically saying that either we have machismo or we have blandness, which is hopefully not what you actually think.

It's ironic to defend machismo under the guise of celebrating diversity, when it was almost certainly machismo in the climbing culture of the past that stunted diversity. All good if you're one of the lads, massively off-putting if you're not. Yes yes, snowflake millennial, etc.

Whoa there yourself

I didn’t say I missed toxic masculinity, characters have good and bad points, I’m happy to take some bad for the good. Duncan and heavy are/were both complex characters with many flawed aspects ( aren’t we all?) I lament the lack characters like them yes. Underneath the tough exterior and quite obviously flawed aspects of their characters lie some traits which I genuinely aspire to, they would stand up for what they believe and would happily die for the people close to them amongst many other things.

I’d rather live in a world with people like them than without, despite their obvious faults. Machismo or masculinity isn’t all bad, and doesn’t have to be negative. If we were all perfect in my view, life would be meh and boring.

I’m not defending anything, all I said was I miss characters, climbing is becoming bland and meh in my view, your welcome to yours, and yes snowflake….. and yes I’m a dinosaur, I just think the worlds all the richer for both of us.

northern yob

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There’s place for a little machismo in my world.

Well you were named Britain’s Manliest Man by The Sun, so that much is obvious 😄

I think it was rustlers burgers….. it’s a long and funny story at least it’s funny now, a good lesson in not taking yourself too seriously…..

ali k

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Ali K, just curious, does your ‘no fixed gear’ ideal extend to in-situ threads which can’t be placed on lead?
I’m less offended by these as they can be replaced without damaging the rock at all, but if pushed I’d say preferable to remove. They add a bit of Russian roulette into a potential onsight and can change the grade depending on what state they’re in at a particular point in time. And one person’s ‘can’t be placed on lead’ might be different from another’s so blocks the thread from being placed on lead even if someone wanted to. Similar to the ‘stuck’ (in-situ) nuts that littered Big Issue before I cleaned it up.

I don’t have much skin in the game anyway these days as I don’t really climb. I just think with the standards of the youth coming through it’s a shame to rob them of some potential hard and properly ‘clean’ trad ascents of some really good bits of rock (even if it is just re-climbing old routes minus the in-situ tat) and updating the grade accordingly.

Personally I’d be more psyched to see and read about that than just an acceptance that routes should be preserved in a state most similar to the first ascent by replacing fixed gear like for like.

northern yob

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Ali K, just curious, does your ‘no fixed gear’ ideal extend to in-situ threads which can’t be placed on lead?
I’m less offended by these as they can be replaced without damaging the rock at all, but if pushed I’d say preferable to remove. They add a bit of Russian roulette into a potential onsight and can change the grade depending on what state they’re in at a particular point in time. And one person’s ‘can’t be placed on lead’ might be different from another’s so blocks the thread from being placed on lead even if someone wanted to. Similar to the ‘stuck’ (in-situ) nuts that littered Big Issue before I cleaned it up.

I don’t have much skin in the game anyway these days as I don’t really climb. I just think with the standards of the youth coming through it’s a shame to rob them of some potential hard and properly ‘clean’ trad ascents of some really good bits of rock (even if it is just re-climbing old routes minus the in-situ tat) and updating the grade accordingly.

Personally I’d be more psyched to see and read about that than just an acceptance that routes should be preserved in a state most similar to the first ascent by replacing fixed gear like for like.

Yes same

andy moles

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climbing is becoming bland and meh in my view

Well I'll make peace on this digression, because in many ways I agree.

Homogenised, insta-friendly, training-obsessed, sponsorship-appeasing, worthy bullshit ...being millennial I can't help, but don't lump me in with all that :beer2:

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I must have missed the UKC UKB forum merger

 

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