[andy moles]

The important thing is to keep quite about it.

Nah, you've got to lay the red carpet for just action with an internet forum debate.

Topple opponents with the power of your reason, it never fails.

[northern yob]

Thought it was adding:

https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/features/supercool_duncan_drake_versus_martin_atkinson-4419

Duncan was quite a character, it’s a real shame he’s not around anymore, there’s absolutely no way he would’ve allowed the stealth bolts to go unchallenged.

[Will Hunt]

Great link, Dave. I came across Duncan's name a few years ago and asked Paul Clarke who he was. Can't remember the full answer but the impression I got was fiercely bold. He sounds like a great character.

[northern yob]

Great link, Dave. I came across Duncan's name a few years ago and asked Paul Clarke who he was. Can't remember the full answer but the impression I got was fiercely bold. He sounds like a great character.

Dave’s link has had me lamenting some of the old characters….. whilst I’m not really pro people just ripping things out without consultation (for the reasons JB has mentioned elsewhere),  but the thought of Duncan driving down there in a rage and ripping out the offending items brings a warm glow. It’s a real shame characters like him are becoming rarer! Also the loss of people with the strength of conviction and the fuck em attitude to just go out and do it. Maybe I should give his old mate Heavy Duty a heads up as to what’s going on…. It might be enough to finally get him back to the motherland. If it wasn’t for the fact I can imagine the disappointment Heavy would have in me for not just ripping them out I might.

[webbo]

Heavy Duty would probably be arrested as soon as he arrived back. I bet the number of break ins at chemist shops went down when he left the country.

[Fiend]

Interesting article. At first I was confused why he wanted to preserve a bold aid climb, until I saw the idea was it would be climbed free with minimal gear.

This is a good quote...

Simply that Duncan was passionate about what he believed in and brave enough to stand up for those beliefs. He didn't just sit back and talk about it, he actively demonstrated by his controversial and sometimes adversarial actions what he stood for. Looking back from today's world politically correct attitudes, Duncan's actions might be seen as a little unorthodox, he was genuine in defending his beliefs, yet his demonstrations ultimately yielded naught.

Although he sounds a bit aggressive and brash overall (although I do quite like the idea of getting angrier and angrier soloing WOH), it does reinforce that we probably need more northern yobs characters who can passionately defend their beliefs and take a stand against such things.

Talking about debolting - here's a good one. Did anyone ever find out who stripped the bolts out of Marlena / Hamish / Silk etc at Dunkeld's Cave Crag?? That seemed to be an exceptional example of mis-placed unjustified bolt removal as the crag was a real flagship of sport and trad sitting side-by-side with no impingement from the former to the latter (and AFAIK there still isn't to this day).

[northern yob]

Heavy Duty would probably be arrested as soon as he arrived back. I bet the number of break ins at chemist shops went down when he left the country.

I think it’s probably been long enough that he would be ok….. I don’t think he’d get back into Canada though. I’m sure the chemists of West Yorkshire were quite happy to see the back of him back in the 80’s.

Despite all the bluster he’s another classic hard character (with a soft inside like all the best ones….)

[webbo]

Heavy Duty would probably be arrested as soon as he arrived back. I bet the number of break ins at chemist shops went down when he left the country.

I think it’s probably been long enough that he would be ok….. I don’t think he’d get back into Canada though. I’m sure the chemists of West Yorkshire were quite happy to see the back of him back in the 80’s.
Alan seemed just love hanging on dodgy gear. I did Diagonal with him, my first multi pitch HVS and he failed to find the top jamming crack and ended up doing Zeta with its then 2 tied off pegs for aid.

Despite all the bluster he’s another classic hard character (with a soft inside like all the best ones….)

[petejh]

Great link, Dave. I came across Duncan's name a few years ago and asked Paul Clarke who he was. Can't remember the full answer but the impression I got was fiercely bold. He sounds like a great character.

It’s a real shame characters like him are becoming rarer! Also the loss of people with the strength of conviction and the fuck em attitude to just go out and do it.

Oh the irony. Or rather, the one-sided viewpoint.

Knowing some of them, the fact is the people who placed the deceptive bolts on the Welsh trad crags are exactly the type of character you wish there were more of. They're the type of people who don't engage in debates because they think they're a waste of time/energy, they're very resourceful, they're extremely experienced and they do by their actions just say 'fuck you I'm doing what I think is right because I believe it's the right thing'. Exactly the type you suggest you like. You just don't like what they've done.

Taking the viewpoint of that type of character above, it's tempting to say to you tough shit. But I partly agree with your point of view. My big problem with the bolts isn't that they're bolts; it's that they're so massively dishonest. The problem as I see it isn't bolts per se (they're a symptom). The way these bolts have been placed to resemble pegs creates further problems in a way that I find difficult to express but that I think will have overall negative long-term consequences in continued littering of pegs on trad routes. It's basically kicking the awkward can down the road, for lots of reasons one being we don't want to upset the old-school, and trying to make it look like continuing to replace pegs is OK. When what 'should' be happening imo, is either removing pegs completely - your view - or replacing with a bolt.

Personalities aren't any different on either side of debates like these. It's the reasoning behind the decision-making in this case that's so questionable.   

[Will Hunt]

Yeah, "characters" such as this are great to chat about now, but having strength in your convictions doesn't make you right. If UK sport was bolted with a strict minimalist attitude it would be shit. Let trad be trad and sport be sport.

[Fiend]

Knowing some of them, the fact is the people who placed the deceptive bolts on the Welsh trad crags are exactly the type of character you wish there were more of. They're the type of people who don't engage in debates because they think they're a waste of time/energy, they're very resourceful, they're extremely experienced and they do by their actions just say 'fuck you I'm doing what I think is right because I believe it's the right thing'.

I'm not sure the "don't engage in debates because they think they're a waste of time/energy" is necessarily a good point. The discussion on this last great bastion of dogmatic traditionalist dinosaurs UKBouldering has some some fairly passionate viewpoints from active climbers across the spectrum, even trad purists like, ummm Barrows and Kingy are expressing some concerns about fixed gear.

Are these resourceful and experienced characters really so naive that they think there are no opposing viewpoints and no people interested in having a say on the outcome and the state of crags?? Hell, I'm not the biggest expert on, say Gordale history and route popularity, but if I decided to take a stand and de-bolt Supercool, I'd probably have some suspicions that other climbers might like a say and that a debate might be a good use of time/energy, ot at least running it past a crack committee of Duncan Campbell, DAVETHOMAS09 and spidermonkey90...

More likely, these characters know full bloody well their actions are dubious, contentious, and would have plenty of people disagreeing with them and would be worth hammering out and getting a consensus on, but just want to get away with it by presenting it as a fait d'accompli. I don't think when dealing with public cliffs that other people are going to climb on that that's necessarily the right way to go about it.

Furthermore, if we have a comparison of de-bolting / fixed-gear-removing guerilla characters, and retro-bolting / peg-bolting guerilla characters, I would say in the current climate in which climbing is trending inexorably towards quick-fix lowest-common-denominator consumer climbing with a constant increase in fixed gear, the former characters are considerably more useful to balance things out than the latter are...

[petejh]

You’re missing the point. I didn’t say ‘not engaging in debates’ *is* a good trait.
The point (obvious I thought) is to do with NY’s admiration for strong ‘characters’. On his definition of admirable character traits, he would equally admire the characters placing the bolts-disguised-as-pegs, as the characters ripping them out. 

[Fiend]

In which case my last paragraph applies.

Anyway, you haven't nominated your favourite de-gearing targets yet 

[mrjonathanr]

Surely one of the ‘admirable traits’ of Duncan Drake et al is their up front, in your face, honesty?

[petejh]

Anyway, you haven't nominated your favourite de-gearing targets yet 

I don't need to - I do rather than type.   


What nobody knows until now (maybe one or two) is that I completely de-bolted a never-done long sport route near me a few years ago because it makes an amazing trad route. No fixed required to be a brilliant and safe only slightly run-out E7/8 (haha fuck off...
I worked it on ab rope and keep mean to go and actually do it (pretty hard with connies and birds), will be a bit embarrassing and a shame if I don't! New edition of NWL will reveal details. I did talk to the FAscensionist through rather than go full rogue, although somewhat rogue.

[northern yob]

You’re missing the point. I didn’t say ‘not engaging in debates’ *is* a good trait.
The point (obvious I thought) is to do with NY’s admiration for strong ‘characters’. On his definition of admirable character traits, he would equally admire the characters placing the bolts-disguised-as-pegs, as the characters ripping them out.

No I’d say your missing the point. I’m fully aware of the stealth bolt fairies identity and their characteristics, the character traits I was relating to (not the only good ones duncan, heavy and the peg fairy for that matter have/had) were the brash bold not giving a fuck,  owning your opinion that they have/had, not skulking around in the shadows doing your own thing in the guise of public service…. Heavy and duncan would be on here justifying ripping them out.If the fairy had any of that he’d be standing up to justify and maybe ask what people thought rather than keeping his head down. To my mind they are polar opposites, regardless of wether you agree with them or not.

Whilst it’s quite obvious you like to pick holes in what you think other people think, I’m not actually sure where you stand, one minute you seem against, the next you seem to be sticking up for the fairy! Rather than pick holes in my view do you fancy making yours clear?

I’m more than up for a debate and you can pick away at my view, but it would be more straightforward if you would lay out where you stand rather than cashing in cheap shots on other peoples views. Am I the only one who’s not really sure where you stand, or what the actual point of your analysis of my post was and what it was actually adding to the debate.

[petejh]

It’s got nothing to do with picking holes as you put it and I’m not sure why the defensive tone. Unless ‘picking holes’ means acknowledging there are no right or wrong viewpoints and that simple honesty is probably a great place to start, then yeah count me in I’ll pick holes all day long.
As you say, my views are more nuanced than either ‘rip them all out’ or ‘bolt it all up’. My view has been clearly expressed - ‘be honest about what we’re doing’.
Designing a bolt to look like a peg, drilling its placement, and then writing up route/crag descriptions in guides or online topos as containing ‘pegs’ is hugely dishonest in my opinion. It’s harder for climbers to argue for or against a bolt if people aren’t 100% sure it is a bolt when they climb past it.

But beyond that, the
‘trad’ ethical playing field is starting from a massively less than ideal place, as mrjonathanr quite rightly points out. Ripping out everything probably wouldn’t make the most of our amazing trad climbing. Clearly nor would bolting it. The best route is probably somewhere between the two extremes.

Can I make it any clearer? 🙄

[abarro81]

My instinct in response to Yob's earlier post was similar to Pete's, but I think I get where Yob is coming from now.. although there's definitely a bit of internal inconsistency

 Anyway, these bolts are sneaky disingenuous bullshit that, IMO, make a mockery of British trad climbing and should be chopped.. but I won't be taking them out because I'm lazy and I don't care that much about British trad climbing. Trad might be coming from an ethical grey zone, but I kind of thought that bolting sea cliffs went out with the bolts in Pembroke back in the day, and am surprised that people who do care about British trad are putting up with this shit

[Bonjoy]

Not that lazy abarro81! Not many other posters on here who've actually debolted a route.

P.s. PM me if you'd rather maintain your semi anonymity on that, and I'll delete this post.

[Fiend]

Ripping out everything probably wouldn’t make the most of our amazing trad climbing. Clearly nor would bolting it. The best route is probably somewhere between the two extremes.

Maybe like adding more lower-offs / ab-points where suitable to make the trad routes they service more feasible to get on or off, and thus keeping them climbed and in decent condition?? 

[northern yob]

It’s got nothing to do with picking holes as you put it and I’m not sure why the defensive tone. Unless ‘picking holes’ means acknowledging there are no right or wrong viewpoints and that simple honesty is probably a great place to start, then yeah count me in I’ll pick holes all day long.
As you say, my views are more nuanced than either ‘rip them all out’ or ‘bolt it all up’. My view has been clearly expressed - ‘be honest about what we’re doing’.
Designing a bolt to look like a peg, drilling its placement, and then writing up route/crag descriptions in guides or online topos as containing ‘pegs’ is hugely dishonest in my opinion. It’s harder for climbers to argue for or against a bolt if people aren’t 100% sure it is a bolt when they climb past it.

But beyond that, the
‘trad’ ethical playing field is starting from a massively less than ideal place, as mrjonathanr quite rightly points out. Ripping out everything probably wouldn’t make the most of our amazing trad climbing. Clearly nor would bolting it. The best route is probably somewhere between the two extremes.

Can I make it any clearer? 🙄

My bad, Sorry if that came across a bit aggro. By picking holes I was referring to your assumption about what traits I was referring to, I thought it was deadly obvious (apparently not)and you were being argumentative for the sake of it.

Just to be clear I’m not for ripping anything out( not yet anyway) I’m against replacing fixed gear on sea cliffs, I’m double against replacing them with bolts. It’s nuanced in many ways and I kinda take a hardline stance because I think the nuance gets abused, so I’d rather it was clear in black and white. If this was all about some shit peak limestone I wouldn’t be that bothered, but it’s not it’s Gogarth FFS!!

[mrjonathanr]

Maybe like adding more lower-offs / ab-points where suitable to make the trad routes they service more feasible to get on or off, and thus keeping them climbed and in decent condition?? 

Where does the belay bolt above Warpath/The Sun figure then?

[AJM]

My instinct in response to Yob's earlier post was similar to Pete's, but I think I get where Yob is coming from now.. although there's definitely a bit of internal inconsistency

 Anyway, these bolts are sneaky disingenuous bullshit that, IMO, make a mockery of British trad climbing and should be chopped.. but I won't be taking them out because I'm lazy and I don't care that much about British trad climbing. Trad might be coming from an ethical grey zone, but I kind of thought that bolting sea cliffs went out with the bolts in Pembroke back in the day, and am surprised that people who do care about British trad are putting up with this shit

Similarly surprised, doubly so since it's sea cliffs and it's Gogarth.

I'm not sure I'm an absolutionist personally - I can see some of the nuance where there are critical placements whose presence/absence changes the character of the route - but I'm really surprised that there doesn't seem to be anybody close to the issue who is (or who sees some nuance but sees this as beyond the pale).

Are they actually spreading, or is it just that I'm only hearing about them spreading beyond Gogarth more recently?

Is the Castell Helen abseil point the only place at Gogarth safe from bolts these days?

[petejh]

Where does the belay bolt above Warpath/The Sun figure then?

Similar justification to the stakes at the top of some Pembroke cliffs - there *are* other options but they’re limited. Pembroke - rabbit holes threaded & gorse bushes; Warpath - limited wire placements one far back and one v.close to the lip and off to the side iirc, provided you have the right size, and people were quite understandably using the wall to belay from instead thus running ropes over the popular path, damaging the wall, and causing access issues. If you think a stake would be preferable then why. As it would need to be a drilled and glued stake in the bedrock. Although I’d actually prefer a stainless stake as it would be easier to spot!

[Fiend]

Drilled and glued stakes, now we're talking!!