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Diagnosis & prescription: what endurance and what training to address it? (Read 1992 times)

Rocksteady

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I didn't climb or train for climbing much at all through the last year, through climbing walls being shut down, being injured, being overworked, having an extra kid and various other life things coming together. I had around 8 months total layoff, longest I've had since starting climbing about 15 years ago.

I've been back in the game for the last few months, climbing (indoors so far) and training at least twice a week. I'm really pleased with finger strength gains, I'm as strong as I ever was on a fingerboard (not very). My bouldering is coming along well.

But I'm really struggling with endurance for routes. In particular, I'm getting super pumped when trying to clip. If a hold for a clip is less than a jug with good feet, I'm fading incredibly fast. They're holds I could easily hang and move from if I was bouldering. But the requirement to hang for a while and clip in an unstable body position, is proving very tough.

I've been trying to build up an aerobic base and make sure my technique is OK with lots of easy volume but this doesn't seem to be helping.
I'm reluctant to jump onto campus laddering or pumpy circuits that have worked for me in the past as this doesn't feel like the "same pump" if that makes sense!? Previously I'd usually notice getting pumped on a more progressive basis before arms exploding. This is more sudden and immediate onset, kind of like a flash pump when you haven't warmed up properly.

Any ideas what endurance system is involved and what training I should do to improve it?

jwi

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I've been trying to build up an aerobic base and make sure my technique is OK with lots of easy volume but this doesn't seem to be helping.

Can you provide more detail on this. How many weeks or months have you practiced high volume training? How many moves per session and how many sessions per week.


Fultonius

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Wild stab in the dark, but it sounds like you've quickly redeveloped your ability to work anaerobic ally, without the ability to clear the byproducts.

I would have thought continuing the with the low end mileage will bring that back.

I take it you've considered that you're just way over gripping?

Rocksteady

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I've been trying to build up an aerobic base and make sure my technique is OK with lots of easy volume but this doesn't seem to be helping.

Can you provide more detail on this. How many weeks or months have you practiced high volume training? How many moves per session and how many sessions per week.

Sure thanks jwi. Been going about 4 weeks on the below which I've added on top of normal routes and bouldering sessions. When I do routes I tend to do double laps of flash level and below. Tend to get through 10-14 routes total. On top of that I've been doing:
1-2 sessions a week. 3x10 minutes continuous route climbing would be one session, all below onsight level avoiding getting pumped. This maybe 500-600 moves. Then second session either the same or 'drop sets' per the Crimped app, 6 boulder problems in a row starting from just below flash level to very easy. 6 sets with a 2 min rest between them. Again little to no pump. This session probably 250-300 moves.

Rocksteady

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I take it you've considered that you're just way over gripping?

That is a good point because one thing I've wondered is whether I'm sagging in the core. So legs engaged, hands/arms/shoulders engaged, but not joining up through tension in the middle. So not effectively taking weight off. Had back and neck problems through last year and into this year and think this could be part of the problem.

jwi

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I've been trying to build up an aerobic base and make sure my technique is OK with lots of easy volume but this doesn't seem to be helping.

Can you provide more detail on this. How many weeks or months have you practiced high volume training? How many moves per session and how many sessions per week.

Sure thanks jwi. Been going about 4 weeks on the below which I've added on top of normal routes and bouldering sessions. When I do routes I tend to do double laps of flash level and below. Tend to get through 10-14 routes total. On top of that I've been doing:
1-2 sessions a week. 3x10 minutes continuous route climbing would be one session, all below onsight level avoiding getting pumped. This maybe 500-600 moves. Then second session either the same or 'drop sets' per the Crimped app, 6 boulder problems in a row starting from just below flash level to very easy. 6 sets with a 2 min rest between them. Again little to no pump. This session probably 250-300 moves.

OK 4 weeks of non specific endurance should be plenty to see some improvements if you have some previous base endurance to fall back on. Usually the ability to get super pumped is a sign that the ability to produce lactate is a lot better than the muscles abilities to deal with it. Try to mix in some more specific endurance maybe?

But you would not expect your strength to come back to previous levels in 4 weeks would you?

Rocksteady

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Based on the replies I suspect what's going on is I've done about 10 weeks of once-a-week route climbing doing double laps. And I was expecting this to bring my endurance back. But what I think I might have done is train ability to produce lactate without training the muscles' abilities to deal with it.

So I started doing the right thing in aerocap training but haven't yet done enough to counteract the above.

Thanks that makes sense. Will keep plugging away at the aero stuff and see if it makes a difference in a few more weeks.

Fultonius

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Alex etc. will probably have more to say on this, but I think you might want to mix in some repeater or cycling style anaerobic training. I reckon if you NEVER get pumped, you will be upping your aerobic capacity, but not your ability to deal with flushing the anaerobic shit out. Maybe try minute on minute off on a lattice board / moderate circuit? Aiming to be super pumped by 7-10 sets?

There's always the old school way of not giving a fuck about energy systems and just having fun for 10-12 weeks of pyramid routes sessions, onsighting up to your limit and then failing on a few harder ones. Keeping it too light and too low for too long might just not be getting enough stimulation?

moose

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I've no easy solution but I'm reminded of my situation every Spring of years past.  I'd peak at routes in Autumn (f8a+/b in my salad days), but spend late Autumn through Winter bouldering, mainly indoors (Raynaud's Syndrome - my fingers don't do "grit conditions). In Spring, I'd then really suffer on my return to Malham i.e. barely able to get up the 7a warm-ups for weeks.  It never seemed to matter if I'd assiduously used the circuit boards for months beforehand, I was always an absolute mess for weeks. My entirely subjective feeling was that I was over-gripping - I could not use / trust polished smears after months of indoor resin blobs; I was getting nothing from my footwork and / or my fingers were wildly over-recruited.  For me, the only solution was just weeks of tedium - lapping easier stuff to get my footwork right and then working links on a potential project (using it for both training and aspiration).

Rocksteady

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I've no easy solution but I'm reminded of my situation every Spring of years past.  I'd peak at routes in Autumn (f8a+/b in my salad days), but spend late Autumn through Winter bouldering, mainly indoors (Raynaud's Syndrome - my fingers don't do "grit conditions). In Spring, I'd then really suffer on my return to Malham i.e. barely able to get up the 7a warm-ups for weeks.  It never seemed to matter if I'd assiduously used the circuit boards for months beforehand, I was always an absolute mess for weeks. My entirely subjective feeling was that I was over-gripping - I could not use / trust polished smears after months of indoor resin blobs; I was getting nothing from my footwork and / or my fingers were wildly over-recruited.  For me, the only solution was just weeks of tedium - lapping easier stuff to get my footwork right and then working links on a potential project (using it for both training and aspiration).

Super interesting Moose thanks. That is very familiar to me at lesser grades (I've peaked at 7c so far, these days probably more like 7a). I live in London and get out on rock a lot less than I'd like - I have to really consider my strategy for days out and trips because otherwise I end up having days where I'm scared and rubbish at climbing. Some good tips from you here on one way to deal with that.
I think I am over-gripping and I'm not pushing hard enough through my body, so am putting too much weight through my hands. So some things to think about for me here.

mrjonathanr

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How strong is your body overall? That’s needed as well as pure ‘pull’ to maintain efficient positions. Something like yoga (of the more demanding variety) might help? Certainly does loads for core and mobility.

 

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