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Bolted lower-offs on select trad routes?? (Read 17869 times)

macca7

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But as fiend says they aren't going back to nature, there getting retried under the excuse of neglect.

Just happened at ansteys bmc meeting voted to retro all the neglected trad routes there!

DAVETHOMAS90

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But as fiend says they aren't going back to nature, there getting retried under the excuse of neglect.

Just happened at ansteys bmc meeting voted to retro all the neglected trad routes there!


What a crock 'o bullocks  :-\

Who the f' are the BMC? Which trad routes? It's OK, we'll refer to it as a BMC meeting, to pass it all off.

Sorry if I've quoted you out of context there macca.

cheque

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andy moles

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Dealing with tat: I have a single edge razorblade (gear joke goes here) duct-taped to the back of my helmet. It’s unobtrusive and you don’t forget it unless you forget the helmet. I’ve used it a few times to tidy up abseil tat or chop a rope.


I like it. I might try taping mine to the front of my helmet with the blade slightly proud of the rim, so I can go Peaky Blinders on retro boltpeggers and people who can't equalise tat.

andy moles

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IMHO it should be an evolution, we should now be trying to step up to the challenge the rock presents.

I can totally see the appeal of this hardline attitude - it's simple and pure.

But then you start to think of specific cases.

I've cited Barbarossa before, so let's take Space Case at Craig y Forwyn. It's a mainly trad-protected route, with a (pointless) peg right next to a good cam slot and a couple of threads low down. Just below its upper crux there is a shiny expansion bolt (a replacement of the bolt Andy Pollitt placed for the FA).

It has been led without the bolt at E8 - which entails a pumpy, hard-to-read 6b sequence with groundfall potential from 20m. With the bolt, it's a brilliant, goey, balanced E6.

Without the bolt, a few people would probably still headpoint it, and a very few maybe flash or on-sight it. But for plenty of others it would become unjustifiable to lead. And that's OK, really - you can still top-rope it if you want to enjoy the climbing. Unless you believe leading routes is somehow important, it's no great loss. But in adhering to the pure trad ethic, what has actually been gained?

Kingy

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But as fiend says they aren't going back to nature, there getting retried under the excuse of neglect.

Just happened at ansteys bmc meeting voted to retro all the neglected trad routes there!

I see what is happening with retroing which I am uncomfortable with. I was making a general point about route traffic in general. This would apply to obscure routes in the Lancs quarries where no retroing would be entertained by the locals

northern yob

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what has actually been gained?

A natural E8 that doesn’t resort to a hole being drilled in the rock.

There are plenty of routes at E6 that accept the challenge presented, without resorting to a drill in north Wales. If you’ve done them all, there’s plenty of sport routes at the required level to go at too, if you’ve done all those then there’s always England…..

northern yob

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Does this also apply to accepting the onsight challenge and improving ethics from headpointing to ground-upping to flashing to onsighting??




People can climb in whatever style they want as long as they aren’t drilling holes or wielding hammers as far as I’m concerned

I know which style I think is superior, it doesn’t mean I always climb in it….

northern yob

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The question I have: In cases where the shitty top-outs and descents are highly likely to contribute to that neglect, and where lower-offs / ab points are likely to solve that issue - if you're not going to put those lower-offs / ab points in, HOW are you going to halt the neglect and preserve the trad??

(Genuine question, not baiting)

I don’t think there is anyway to halt the decline, I think trad will probably make some kind of comeback in the future, these things tend to be in cycles.

I don’t think diluting the challenge with lower offs will help preserve trad climbing.

Ab points is a whole other issue

Sorry fiend but your esoteric, pile of shit choss fests are collateral damage. They aren’t gonna preserve trad climbing with or without lower offs. As fun as they may be.

andy moles

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what has actually been gained?

A natural E8 that doesn’t resort to a hole being drilled in the rock.


No question. But what is the intrinsic value of that?

Fiend

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Sorry fiend but your esoteric, pile of shit choss fests are collateral damage. They aren’t gonna preserve trad climbing with or without lower offs. As fun as they may be.
Now now, that's quite off target. The more adventurous routes I like are almost invariably quite conventional sea-cliff stuff on the North Wales coastline, and entirely unsuitable (logistically and ethically) for lower-offs.

The sort of neglected non-honeypot routes I'm referring to would be Pennine limestone, gritstone quarries, some mountain rock crags (as I said, Mad Dogs And Englishmen looked pretty dusty / unchalked earlier this summer) Routes which are invariably quite normal and good quality but have fallen into the vicious circle of neglect / off-putting appearances due to circumstance.

Do lower-offs really dilute the challenge on these sorts of routes where a top-out / descent is very much easier than the actual route, just unpleasant, out of character, long-winded, and dangerous in a different way to the route itself?? Are aspirants really seeking the challenge of grovelling through a heathery, muddy VS 4a top-out on top of their normal E2 5c route and a 10 minute scramble back through brambles?? I suspect they're after the actual climbing challenge bit (unless they're lost winter climbers, trying to maximise the general misery irrespective of climbing quality).

P.S. Despite arguing back I do definitely respect your view (and JB's, DT90's etc)

I do find the implied response from Kingy and teestub interesting - that some trad routes and venues will just have to be sacrificed - i.e. some of it can be preserved but not all.

P.P.S. Kingy - thoughts on the prominent shiny Supercrack / Sobeit bolted lower-off at Wilton 1?? Those two (normal, high quality) trad routes do seem to keep getting a decent amount of attention that they might not if the vegetation / rubble top-out had to be negotiated...

« Last Edit: October 21, 2021, 09:37:04 am by Fiend »

northern yob

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what has actually been gained?

A natural E8 that doesn’t resort to a hole being drilled in the rock.


No question. But what is the intrinsic value of that?

Yikes this sounds a bit philosophical isn’t it the same intrinsic value as an E6 or a HVS for that matter?

northern yob

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Sorry fiend but your esoteric, pile of shit choss fests are collateral damage. They aren’t gonna preserve trad climbing with or without lower offs. As fun as they may be.
Now now, that's quite off target. The more adventurous routes I like are almost invariably quite conventional sea-cliff stuff on the North Wales coastline, and entirely unsuitable (logistically and ethically) for lower-offs.

The sort of neglected non-honeypot routes I'm referring to would be Pennine limestone, gritstone quarries, some mountain rock crags (as I said, Mad Dogs And Englishmen looked pretty dusty / unchalked earlier this summer) Routes which are invariably quite normal and good quality but have fallen into the vicious circle of neglect / off-putting appearances due to circumstance.

Do lower-offs really dilute the challenge on these sorts of routes where a top-out / descent is very much easier than the actual route, just unpleasant, out of character, long-winded, and dangerous in a different way to the route itself?? Are aspirants really seeking the challenge of grovelling through a heathery, muddy VS 4a top-out on top of their normal E2 5c route and a 10 minute scramble back through brambles?? I suspect they're after the actual climbing challenge bit (unless they're lost winter climbers, trying to maximise the general misery irrespective of climbing quality).

I do find the implied response from Kingy and teestub interesting - that some trad routes and venues will just have to be sacrificed - i.e. some of it can be preserved but not all.

Sorry I didn’t actually mean it like that, I meant the peak limestone and quarries are collateral damage, those routes are sacrificed at the alter of Ken. I don’t believe we can be pragmatic (I wish we could) it will get abused, that’s why I’ve formed a seemingly fairly hardline stance. I’m with teestub and kingy.

Also fuck this shit, have you looked outside? I’m going climbing (I won’t be drilling holes or lowering off) I look forward to catching up with this tomorrow.

andy moles

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what has actually been gained?

A natural E8 that doesn’t resort to a hole being drilled in the rock.


No question. But what is the intrinsic value of that?

Yikes this sounds a bit philosophical isn’t it the same intrinsic value as an E6 or a HVS for that matter?

What I meant was, why is preserving a route in a given state of greater importance than the benefits potentially gained by compromise? Is sticking to principle the bottom line, even if it costs in other ways?

northern yob

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what has actually been gained?

A natural E8 that doesn’t resort to a hole being drilled in the rock.


No question. But what is the intrinsic value of that?

Yikes this sounds a bit philosophical isn’t it the same intrinsic value as an E6 or a HVS for that matter?

What I meant was, why is preserving a route in a given state of greater importance than the benefits potentially gained by compromise? Is sticking to principle the bottom line, even if it costs in other ways?

Ok one more!

Yes for me the principal is the bottom line, leave the rock as it was. If you don’t stick to that principal doesn’t it make more sense to retro them all? What is the bottom line for you popularity?

abarro81

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No question. But what is the intrinsic value of that?

What's the intrinsic value of any trad climbing? Whatever your answer to my question is your answer to your question.

It has been led without the bolt at E8 - which entails a pumpy, hard-to-read 6b sequence with groundfall potential from 20m. With the bolt, it's a brilliant, goey, balanced E6.

Without the bolt, a few people would probably still headpoint it, and a very few maybe flash or on-sight it. But for plenty of others it would become unjustifiable to lea
This is why they chipped all those euro sport routes back in the day - to make nice homogenous routes. Now I like climbing some old drilled stuff, but it's better to leave that approach in the past IMO. If not, I've got a sweet bit of roof at Kilnsey that just needs a few 3 finger jugs drilling out... will be way better as a drilled 8c than a natural 9b... In Europe I wouldn't mind if they did that even now, there's plenty of rock, but in the UK I think we're probably all agreed we should stay away from that line of thought...

Pegs were always bullshit, and should rot or be ripped out. Peg bolts are a joke. I have no objection to lower-offs in the right places, maybe to avoid it being part of the slippery slope we make a rule where for every lower-off bolt placed you have to go rip out an old peg or angle-grind one of these pseudo-pegs...
« Last Edit: October 21, 2021, 10:11:55 am by abarro81 »

Wellsy

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What is the intrinsic value of anything 🤔

andy moles

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I rushed those last couple of posts earlier (also trying to get outside!) and didn't make my point very well.

Yes for me the principal is the bottom line, leave the rock as it was. If you don’t stick to that principal doesn’t it make more sense to retro them all? What is the bottom line for you popularity?

No. I'm wary of the popularity argument, you hear some version of it as justification for any increase in safety/convenience, but taken to its logical conclusion we'd just bolt everything, and that would be shit. But I'm also not saying popularity counts for nothing, in the same way that I'm not saying the principle of leaving no trace counts for nothing.

I'm arguing for not having a bottom line, rigid principle that must be applied to everything. That's the reality of what we've always had - the trad ethic has always been compromised by fixed gear to a degree that makes it closer to a rule than an exception. What you're arguing for is something that has never really existed. Which is fine, and I agree with you that we should be trying to improve on the past. What I'm questioning is whether drawing a bright line between trad and sport and having nothing in between, which would in fact be a new development for UK climbing, would be such a great thing. I think we'd effectively lose some brilliant routes, and for what? To conform to an arbitrary rule?

Pegs were indeed always bullshit, as is the idea that whatever the FA did dictates how a route should be forever. But I don't see why certain routes having the odd piece of (durable) fixed gear, where it makes a significant difference to the character of a route in a way that a majority of 'trad' climbers agree is positive, is a bad thing. Same applies to lower-offs, to drag this back to the topic.

Having said that, I do have some sympathy for your point about keeping it pure and simple, to prevent the advancing wedge from getting out of hand - but I don't there's any way it'll ever happen, so we might as well be pragmatic!


This is why they chipped all those euro sport routes back in the day - to make nice homogenous routes. Now I like climbing some old drilled stuff, but it's better to leave that approach in the past IMO. If not, I've got a sweet bit of roof at Kilnsey that just needs a few 3 finger jugs drilling out... will be way better as a drilled 8c than a natural 9b... In Europe I wouldn't mind if they did that even now, there's plenty of rock, but in the UK I think we're probably all agreed we should stay away from that line of thought... 

Agreed, but chipping and fixed gear are not the same thing. As above, I'm not arguing that we should be trying to make all routes as balanced as possible, but I also think that in some cases, like where a single bolt makes 2 grades difference and the difference between a brilliant ground-up challenge for lots of climbers vs. a deadly bold route that almost no one will climb in 'trad' style, well...why not?

Sure, bits of rock don't have to be climbed. But if they have a lot of merit, in terms of quality or history or whatever it is that climbers value, and we choose essentially for them to become less climbable, it should be for a good reason. I'm not sure 'because trad' is always going to be good enough.

What is the intrinsic value of anything 🤔

There is none, none whatsoever.

Kingy

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I do find the implied response from Kingy and teestub interesting - that some trad routes and venues will just have to be sacrificed - i.e. some of it can be preserved but not all.

P.P.S. Kingy - thoughts on the prominent shiny Supercrack / Sobeit bolted lower-off at Wilton 1?? Those two (normal, high quality) trad routes do seem to keep getting a decent amount of attention that they might not if the vegetation / rubble top-out had to be negotiated...

Nothing is being sacraficed, that is an active verb. They are merely falling into disuse. Folk are free to do the routes and clean them up if they so wish, nothing stopping ppl.

I'm not in favour of bolted loweroffs in the quarries. I first climbed in the quarries in 1994 and there were no loweroffs then. I don't see the need for any now. Like I say, if cleaning needs doing then ppl who want to do these routes are free to go and do it. I do plenty of cleaning of dusty holds on sport routes and rebolting every year as that is the kind of climbing Im into these days. Different strokes for different folks...

Fiend

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It's a bit of a pig when you want to onsight trad and the routes are falling into disuse and need cleaning because they're not getting enough traffic (possibly due to shitty top-outs) tho...


I do rather like barrow's suggestion that it's okay to add lower-offs, as long as each time that's balanced out by removing a bit of fixed gear from actually on a trad route (is that one bit per lower-off, or one bit per each bolt of the lower-off??)

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What is the intrinsic value of anything 🤔

There is none, none whatsoever.

.. which is why hunting for some justification for the way to go, is also folly.

There are merits and consequences, gains and losses - no "right" course of action.

I think of old trad E2s at Anstey's that would lose their magic and reward if bolted. I took the bolts out of Free the Spirit - to.. er.. free the spirit, but a couple of bolts in The Flaming Drambuie (direct/old start/direct finish) would really set it alight.

..  :whistle:

mrjonathanr

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I do rather like barrow's suggestion that it's okay to add lower-offs, as long as each time that's balanced out by removing a bit of fixed gear from actually on a trad route a nearby sport route.

Fixed.  :)

teestub

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It's a bit of a pig when you want to onsight trad and the routes are falling into disuse and need cleaning because they're not getting enough traffic (possibly due to shitty top-outs) tho...


So this is actually just a personal interest thing for you, to make your preferred climbing style more convenient 😄

Fiend

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Yup the entire poll was set up to try to nudge opinions in that direction  ::)

Nah it's just a problem with Kingy's "if cleaning needs doing then ppl who want to do these routes are free to go and do it" idea - ppl who want to step up to the challenge of the route (as it's graded, i.e. for an onsight in normal conditions) might not want to have that challenge greatly reduced by abseiling down, hoiking out plants, scrubbing holds, excavating gear slots. If climbs were generally able to be kept in decent condition, that would be preferable.

(I do a bit of cleaning, sometimes after I've battled through filth leading a route, sometimes on routes I've previously done, and sometimes on routes that I don't mind not stepping up to the onsight challenge on (I've found one way to alleviate beta-gain from the latter is to clean them in miserable wet conditions in autumn/winter prior to an ascent the next summer, thus any information is pretty murky and easily forgotten).

Fiend

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(I do a bit of cleaning, sometimes after I've battled through filth leading a route, sometimes on routes I've previously done, and sometimes on routes that I don't mind not stepping up to the onsight challenge on (I've found one way to alleviate beta-gain from the latter is to clean them in miserable wet conditions in autumn/winter prior to an ascent the next summer, thus any information is pretty murky and easily forgotten).
Was out cleaning today, putting my money where my moaning is. Fuck me I'd rather have been cranking out esoteric lowballs on the grit or training on the wood indoors, or smashing out some """E3 5c""" above 8 pads and Youtubing the fuck out of it, but instead for my rehab I was cleaning in a nice little roadside suntrap quarry - just trying to give people more feasible trad options near where I am (and keep vaguely hanging on to sanity).

A couple of things to note:

The route I cleaned today had not one but two quite unrusted pegs (i.e. pegs, not bolts as they do on Snowdonia trad) right next to multiple bomber gear placements easily accessible from decent holds / bridging rests. If I hoik them out, according to the now default Barrows Fixed Gear Equilibrium Protocol, do I get to specify where a lower-off can be placed in return?? Or do I have to accept where someone else places it?? (probably on the top of Rhoscolyn sport routes  ::) )

Secondly this quarry was one I tackled last year, and actually after I cleaned up a route or two on the side wall, a veteran local activist / guru and experienced trad climber did say....

I fancy a lower off might be more appropriate on the top of some of these routes as the top outs are utterly grim. [

However, at that time he hadn't seen my cleaning work on top (photo was from below), which I think had removed most of the utter grimness (I can't recall how bad they were before, certainly a lot better than most of the neglected Wilton 1 routes, and also with good gear below the tops). Anyway it's the top of this, mostly around the centre, and several months later it still looks fine.


I did a similar level of cleaning in the left corner today and wanted to do a proper job of the top-out (even though it was manageable anyway) so it took maybe 45 minutes just on that, out a 1.5 - 2 hour cleaning session. It should last a while but I wonder how many bolt lower-offs I could have drilled in that time.

Not sure what my point is here tbh! But it's topical anyway.

 

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