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Bolted lower-offs on select trad routes?? (Read 17867 times)

andy moles

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Bolts in Welsh trad, we’ll call it Spad!

Correct term is Sprad, I believe.

SamT

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Interesting topic.

Couple of examples spring to mind.  Dead Banana Crack/Bitterfingers at Stoney has had a shiny resin P bolt belay for some time now.  Not exactly a lower off, but never really saw the need as there's trad belay options - namely a tree and and a traditional walk off path.

The lakes, (fairly staunch no bolts in the mountains type of place) Sargent Slabs Crag has a shiny resin P bolt ab point. 
I think many places in the lakes would benefit.  I remember Ravens crag at Thirlmere had a huge block to ab off at the top - but the tat and crab round it looked bloody awful, so we opted for the jungle scramble round the side.  Ended up with dozens of ticks on us both.. my partner had over 40!! as he was wearing shorts.  :sick:  Couple of resins in the big block would have been much preferable IMHO.  :worms:

I'm a traditionalist, and don't want to see any mountain type routes get bolted, (Id be first in line with an angle grinder).  But where 'traditionally' there has been an ab station, with tat and crabs, then I just don't really see the reasoning for not replacing the spiders web of lottery tat, for something more permanent and confidence inspiring.


kc

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On Peak Limestone expect to see more bolted belays with Ash dieback taking a grip.

Muenchener

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Ever climbed on Pen Trwyn?

I did It & Precious Metal back when they still had the "turf jug" top out. Couple of times iirc, and the second time the turf jug was already in a scarily deteriorated state.

Fiend

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I'm a traditionalist, and don't want to see any mountain type routes get bolted, (Id be first in line with an angle grinder).  But where 'traditionally' there has been an ab station, with tat and crabs, then I just don't really see the reasoning for not replacing the spiders web of lottery tat, for something more permanent and confidence inspiring.
Another interesting reply - a good riposte to option 5  ;) . Obviously there are some very trad crags with in-situ lower-offs that don't seem to threaten the trad nature at all. And obviously there are some very trad crags where sketchy and gruelling top-outs are a part of the whole experience (Llyn, Gogarth, Atlantic Coast, but also mountain crags with grassy scrambles to summits etc).

One could probably come up with a fairly sensible list of criteria as to where lower-offs would be warranted / beneficial, and then sub-cases where bolts would be clearly better than other fixed gear (sometimes singular loops of thick static rope and a meaty maillon are all that's needed and maybe that fits best?).


On Peak Limestone expect to see more bolted belays with Ash dieback taking a grip.
Generally an area where it often seems well justified, and fits in well with the general ethic (or lack thereof!).

SamT

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 (sometimes singular loops of thick static rope and a meaty maillon are all that's needed and maybe that fits best?).


Think that's the issue though - thick static can soon go rotten and mouldy.  Infact I think it was thick static that was around the top of the block at Ravens.  But it had gone black/dark green and was rotten to fuck.  It has to be stainless, or nothing else.  If not, it just propagates the endless cycle.  I'm even wary of some the anchor type chains at the top of some lakes crags.  Eg. the one at the top of Gimmer springs to mind.. The links are huge, but not stainless, and if you look  where the links contact each other, they're rusting and wearing. who knows what the links are like round the back of the chain, out of sight behind the boulder.   :shrug:

But, we still clip it and lean back..  "be 'reet"

Fiend

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Fair point, I wasn't thinking about how much static can decay.

macca7

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That's the problem we are having local. There's a huge chain around the top of lunakhod at lower sharpnose that has been there for a few years now and just below it a nice peice of shiny black static! The chain is fine but clearly not everyone thinks so, so the cycle of tat resumes again. The exact reason the chain was put in place!

I've suggested a couple of discrete bolts could be the answer, and also for another couple of points on that fin. Sadly you immediately get shot down at the mere mention of the word bolt.

There are definitely certain specific situations when it would make perfect sense, however I fear we will be in the endless cycle of rancid cord linking someone's old number 2 nut and a bendy peg.

Definitely needs a considered approach and a sensible conversation but I for one would welcome it?

SamT

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Is the chain stainless???

Non stainless metal on a sea cliff??

 :shrug:

Its not cheap though, I admit. 

macca7

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It is stainless, but to be honest along this coast it doesn't make too much of a difference to the appearance after a little while!

The chain is absolutely fine to use, however that's not the point, it only takes one person to think its not and leave there tat there and we are back where we started!

I just wonder if bolts would be any different or would the tat still get left?

cheque

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On Peak Limestone expect to see more bolted belays with Ash dieback taking a grip.
Generally an area where it often seems well justified, and fits in well with the general ethic (or lack thereof!).

I climbed at Ravensdale with a mate who knows about trees and he pointed out to me that lots of the belays/ ab points there are dieback-afflicted Ash trees. In that case I think stakes are the best option given that everything tops out onto flat grass.

DAVETHOMAS90

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I think Sam T's response has covered things quite well, and I'd say I'm generally in agreement with you  ;)

The danger with polls like this, is that they can establish a precedent.
We can all think of excuses for where bolts would work, that we wouldn't complain too much about.

Bolts aren't immune to decay and poor fitment. They end up getting placed for "reasons" of convenience. Surely a major part of the trad experience is the reward that comes from things being less convenient.

I can think of few situations where an established ab-station can't be found/placed just a short distance from the top out of most classic trad routes/crags.

I think the question really pulls us closer to turning all crags into tourist traps.

I'd say it's simply not necessary, and the question of whether they are/not, even less so.

That's not the same thing as saying I wholely or always object, but I'd never object to anyone removing bolts from the trad environment.

andy moles

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There's a huge chain around the top of lunakhod at lower sharpnose that has been there for a few years now and just below it a nice peice of shiny black static! The chain is fine but clearly not everyone thinks so, so the cycle of tat resumes again. The exact reason the chain was put in place!

I'd say the best reason for not placing bolts on Sharpnose is the longevity of the piece of rock they are attached to. If that entire top sliver of Lunakhod fell off, would anyone be that surprised? (Would you even want to hang there and drill it? Am I exaggerating how dubious it is? It's been a while.) Not that this is any less the case with the chain or tat in place, but bolts make a statement of durability and people use them unquestioningly.

Agree there is some tat-leaving practice which is bewildering though. I think some climbers believe as a matter of dogma that you should leave your own piece no matter what, and exercise no judgement at all. Even if there is a clearly new, undamaged piece of fat static, someone will back it up with an unequalised spangle of 6mm cord. And then someone else does the same, and so on. At least it means I never have to buy tat.

SamT

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It is stainless, but to be honest along this coast it doesn't make too much of a difference to the appearance after a little while!

Ah right - fair do's Good point about bolts on sea cliffs not exactly being totally trustworthy and yes, people do tend to have absolute faith in bolts.   Titanium is the only answer there (if the rock isn't the weak factor as pointed out).

Wonder how much titanium chain is  :o

Does anyone ever carry a knife...

In caving, you always carry a knife on a lanyard round your neck (if your rigging pitches doing SRT etc).  It rarely gets used, but in certain situations, without one, life would be very much more complicated.

I went through a little phase of carrying one when out multipitch/mountian/sea cliff climbing.  And I would strip out old tat, and leave the good/better/newer stuff behind.

I can see/understand the ethos/mentality that says "I carry my own tat, I know its age/provenance, I'm not ever trusting my life to something someone else has left behind" . Would seem rather sensible from the outside looking in.




dunnyg

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I have one of those tiny trango knives on a screwgate with my prussic. Hangover from alpine stuff I think. Can't remember the last time I cut away manky old tat with it though...

spidermonkey09

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I can see/understand the ethos/mentality that says "I carry my own tat, I know its age/provenance, I'm not ever trusting my life to something someone else has left behind" . Would seem rather sensible from the outside looking in.

Surely its only a certain type that thinks like this and treats it as a guiding principle? In my head they might be a wannabe instructor trad climbing type but who isnt actually that experienced, because as soon as you gain experience they would realise this would be an enormous effort, an enormous waste of time and often enormously pointless?

It might see,m logical to somebody who doesn't know climbing, but that doesn't actually make it logical, if that makes sense.

I used to carry a little knife and have specifically replaced tat on a few different occasions, but I don't carry it by default. I have enough trouble fitting everything on my harness as it is!

jwi

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"The chain broke" said no one ever.

Tony S

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As as slight aside:
Think that's the issue though - thick static can soon go rotten and mouldy.

Fair point, I wasn't thinking about how much static can decay.

What is the evidence of static rope (nylon kernmantle) decaying in this way? 

Obviously sharp edges pose problematic for fabric ropes but nylon kernmantle ropes are very, very durable with respect to UV, water (in static situations), etc., etc.

Generally mould or rot will occur on organic matter that has got into in-situ fabrics but I've not seen evidence that this will meaningfully damage a 10mm static.

andy moles

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Does anyone ever carry a knife...


I carry a knife when I'm doing more traddy/mountaineery things, and I do cut and carry manky tat off the hill, and tidy up anchors so they're actually equalised etc, quite a lot. And pocket any pointless shiny new stuff, obviously.

El Mocho

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Does anyone ever carry a knife...


I've got one of these, yet to carry it on a trad route as it's stashed in my bouldering bag for cutting flappers/tape/stronger boulderers. I've not used it for any of the above yet. It's very sharp, very light and obv you can replace the blades easily and cheaply....

https://www.nitecore.co.uk/Shop/Accessories/Knives-AND-Blades/13849-Nitecore-NTK05-Tiny-Keyring-Knife.html

macca7

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Absolutely get the point about rock quality but that applies equally to chain, tat or drilled pegs bolts etc.

Also totally agree that trad climbing shouldn't just be about convience but as I said I think there are a few situations where the placement of the right fixed lower off, whether this be chain or drilled pegs, bolts could be a positive step?

SamT

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"The chain broke" said no one ever.

Yeah - I was going to make this point in my last post, but forgot...

You get the same thing in the caving world..  masses and masses of time/effort/testing/arguing/committees/fall outs/frustrations which does come up with some very robust, very over engineered systems and solutions, but essentially, you look at the accident/death rates, and they are virtually non existent.
(perhaps because of the time/effort/testing/arguing/committees/fall outs/frustrations and over engineered systems)

How many deaths in the UK in the last 20 years from a lower off/ab station failing??

(famous last words..  :look: )



Will Hunt

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As as slight aside:
Think that's the issue though - thick static can soon go rotten and mouldy.

Fair point, I wasn't thinking about how much static can decay.

What is the evidence of static rope (nylon kernmantle) decaying in this way? 

Obviously sharp edges pose problematic for fabric ropes but nylon kernmantle ropes are very, very durable with respect to UV, water (in static situations), etc., etc.

Generally mould or rot will occur on organic matter that has got into in-situ fabrics but I've not seen evidence that this will meaningfully damage a 10mm static.

Interesting that you say this. A partner who works in rope access was shocked to see the fixed static adorning Free n' Easy (a south facing route that gets lots and lots of sun; the static had been in place for 2+ years). This was removed a week or two ago after another rope access worker badgered his friend to take it down. Apparently if static is left out on site it isn't very long at all before it is replaced. I am told there is no reliable way to visually inspect white static like this for UV damage, it needs to be pull tested and stuff that appears to be OK sometimes snaps alarmingly easily.

I understand that an industrial setting will have a stricter code to follow, but your post makes it sound like it's a complete non-issue.

Tony S

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I am told there is no reliable way to visually inspect white static like this for UV damage, it needs to be pull tested and stuff that appears to be OK sometimes snaps alarmingly easily.

I understand that an industrial setting will have a stricter code to follow, but your post makes it sound like it's a complete non-issue.

My post was a "call for evidence". Preferably not hear-say. UIAA standard 101 / Ropes states:
"It is sensible to
avoid strong light and extended exposure to UV rays, although there are no known
instances of a rope failing due to UV degradation, since the core is protected from
UV by the sheath."

reeve

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My post was a "call for evidence". Preferably not hear-say. UIAA standard 101 / Ropes states:
"It is sensible to
avoid strong light and extended exposure to UV rays, although there are no known
instances of a rope failing due to UV degradation, since the core is protected from
UV by the sheath."

Maybe the people who had a rope snap on them due to UV degradation didn't report it to the UIAA afterwards?   :shrug:

 

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