Interesting that you say this. A partner who works in rope access was shocked to see the fixed static adorning Free n' Easy (a south facing route that gets lots and lots of sun; the static had been in place for 2+ years). This was removed a week or two ago after another rope access worker badgered his friend to take it down. Apparently if static is left out on site it isn't very long at all before it is replaced. I am told there is no reliable way to visually inspect white static like this for UV damage, it needs to be pull tested and stuff that appears to be OK sometimes snaps alarmingly easily.I understand that an industrial setting will have a stricter code to follow, but your post makes it sound like it's a complete non-issue.
"The chain broke" said no one ever.
Maybe the people who had a rope snap on them due to UV degradation didn't report it to the UIAA afterwards?
Fill your boots with evidence:...
Bolted anchors on trad. routes: seem appropriate in mixed venues like Avon, Uphill, the slate quarries or peak lime but I’m not so sure about elsewhere.
Thanks Pete. But they're a little thin on this "rotting" thing which I was mainly querying. I doubt there is much evidence since leaving climbing ropes in-situ on the ground in damp environments is pretty far from the manufacturers "intended usage".From those papers, the evidence of soaking dynamic (rather than static) ropes with water and 3 months of continuous (daytime at least) exposure at mountaineering hut at ~3000m seems to suggest that it would be unlikely to cause problems for abseiling.Nothing very rigorous appears forthcoming for longer term effects nor on static ropes.
I am told there is no reliable way to visually inspect white static like this for UV damage, it needs to be pull tested and stuff that appears to be OK sometimes snaps alarmingly easily.
Quote from: reeve on October 19, 2021, 11:04:25 amMaybe the people who had a rope snap on them due to UV degradation didn't report it to the UIAA afterwards? Equipment failures leading to deaths tend to be referred to national bodies for investigation.The UIAA is a forum for evidence collected by all participating national bodies.
Yeah that's what I was pointing to. The UV, rotting, degradation of static rope thing is overplayed in many people's minds. Worth noting though that significant loss of strength can occur once the core is exposed to the effects of degrading environments (as you pointed out).
Well yes, thank you; I wasn't being completely serious in case that wasn't obvious.It's not a massive surprise that the UIAA don't have a record of any deaths from UV damaged ropes, as the white bleaching of ropes associated with UV damage will act as an obvious visual warning to not use that rope.
I know that wasn't precisely what your query was about (I think you want to know about the real-life combination effects of UV, water, mould etc) but that was the quote in your message. Anyone, this tangent to the topic is really about the longevity of anchors which could be used as lower-offs, not whether they are strong enough after exposure to the elements, but how long they will last.
Bolted anchors on trad. routes: seem appropriate in mixed venues like Avon, Uphill, the slate quarries or peak lime but I’m not so sure about elsewhere. I appreciated the fixed abseil points on Scafell East Buttress and thought the natural anchors were neatly done. The Lower Sharpnose chain was a good solution. If folk insist on backing it up then just remove the detritus from time to time, per Andy Moles. Eventually the message will get through. The fixed anchors I’ve used recently in Wales (tops of Yellow Wall, Craig Ddu; Foil; Killerkranky) were all pretty messy.
I think Sam T's response has covered things quite well, and I'd say I'm generally in agreement with you The danger with polls like this, is that they can establish a precedent.We can all think of excuses for where bolts would work, that we wouldn't complain too much about.Bolts aren't immune to decay and poor fitment. They end up getting placed for "reasons" of convenience. Surely a major part of the trad experience is the reward that comes from things being less convenient.I can think of few situations where an established ab-station can't be found/placed just a short distance from the top out of most classic trad routes/crags.I think the question really pulls us closer to turning all crags into tourist traps.I'd say it's simply not necessary, and the question of whether they are/not, even less so.That's not the same thing as saying I wholely or always object, but I'd never object to anyone removing bolts from the trad environment.
Ethics have always been very locally agreed based on specific circumstances. I think it should stay that way.
Like Dave says upthread, part of the appeal in trad is that ‘it’s not fast food’. Move the needle on that much and you’ll have bolts at the top of Idwal Slabs before you can whisper ‘Gary Gibson’.
Except no-one will see them because they'll have decided Idwal is too much faff…RAC Boulders instead
Quote from: Fiend on October 19, 2021, 07:20:51 pmExcept no-one will see them because they'll have decided Idwal is too much faff…RAC Boulders instead You can bolt them if you like.
Quote from: mrjonathanr on October 19, 2021, 07:56:43 pmQuote from: Fiend on October 19, 2021, 07:20:51 pmExcept no-one will see them because they'll have decided Idwal is too much faff…RAC Boulders instead You can bolt them if you like.Can I debolt Penmaen Head without any consensus instead, please??
I never thought I’d agree with Ken Wilson but maybe he was right…..
Quote from: northern yob on October 20, 2021, 10:18:26 amI never thought I’d agree with Ken Wilson but maybe he was right….. I might have been thinking that for several years now!! In his heyday I thought he was going too far, too dogmatically the other way. But seeing how climbing is changing overall.....hmmmm. For all that he was extreme and militant, maybe that is needed to balance out the ceaseless tide of lowest-common-denominator convenience climbing...
(But still, I tend to like the idea of lower-offs / ab-points to preserve trad and encourage trad climbing, rather than let it be eradicated by disuse).
If I thought lower offs would help I’d be all for them, I don’t think they will, if anything I think they would help speed up the death of the Great British climbing experience.
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