[shark]

According to the UKC logbooks James Taylor's route Prisoners of the Sun, E10 has had a second ascent. Hidden logbook though so not sure who. My money would be on Angus Kille.

Jim Pope.

Interview with him here.

https://www.climber.co.uk/news/pope-gets-second-ascent-of-prisoners-of-the-sun/

Interesting comments, including:

- Only spent 45 mins on a top rope before the lead.
- Felt like an E8 6c experience.
- Maybe casting doubt on some of the E7s on that wall.

Jim's certainly feeling strong at the minute

Super impressive.

7c+ with a 7B+ section sounds an unlikely combination.

[jwi]

Super impressive.

7c+ with a 7B+ section sounds an unlikely combination.

Quite. I always thought a 7B+ to a trivial jug ladder (7a or whatever) is about 8a. But I am in no position to judge grades on very cruxy routes.

[User deactivated.]

7B+ to a trivial jug ladder (7a or whatever) is about 8a.

Very keen to know the names of some of these routes for a potential quick 8a tick 

[Bradders]

7B+ to a trivial jug ladder (7a or whatever) is about 8a.

Very keen to know the names of some of these routes for a potential quick 8a tick 

Subculture 

[remus]

Super impressive.

7c+ with a 7B+ section sounds an unlikely combination.

I assumed it was worded strangely and actually meant 7B+ in to 7c+ top section (which would fit with the route description and is more in line with the 8a/+/b overall grade suggested by others).

[Kingy]

Having read the UKC write up, Jim says: "I felt like it weighed in at around sport 7c+. Whatever that means! But like I said, I don't have much to compare it to within its style."

The write up goes on with: "Other climbers who have looked at the route have suggested the route's French grade is closer to 8a/+, but only time and more ascents will tell."

To me, Jim found it 7c+ (including a 7B+ boulder) but others have suggested its closer to 8a/+.

[Dexter]

7B+ to a trivial jug ladder (7a or whatever) is about 8a.

Very keen to know the names of some of these routes for a potential quick 8a tick 

Subculture 

Isn't chimes meant to be around a 7B? 3 bolts with the first one/two ususally pre clipped.

[jwi]

7B+ to a trivial jug ladder (7a or whatever) is about 8a.

Very keen to know the names of some of these routes for a potential quick 8a tick 

Hubble has been described as an 8B+* to a, relatively speaking, even more trivial top out (7c+ iirc, which should be akin to adventurous walking for the climber who can pull 8B+) and that apparently gets 9a

* The start boulder is "never 8B+ in a million years with knee bars” according to a well known international wizard who had a brief play on it before they were told in no uncertain terms that knee bars are forbidden

[cheque]

Hubble really is the Indian Face of UKB isn’t it? Don’t let something as trivial as an entire number grade stop you shoehorning it (plus bonus kneebar trope) in jwi. 

I think Out of My Tree and Rattle & Hump might be the sort of thing you’re after Liam.

[Bradders]

I think Out of My Tree and Rattle & Hump might be the sort of thing you’re after Liam.

If there's one thing a full season of sport climbing has taught me, it's that there's a lot more to successfully climbing a route than just being able to do the hardest boulder problem on it; doesn't make the rest of it easy!

[cheque]

I think Out of My Tree and Rattle & Hump might be the sort of thing you’re after Liam.

If there's one thing a full season of sport climbing has taught me, it's that there's a lot more to successfully climbing a route than just being able to do the hardest boulder problem on it; doesn't make the rest of it easy!

  I wasn’t saying that I personally subscribe to the “sport routes with boulder problem cruxes are easy” philosophy (I fell off A Little Extra after doing the hard bit on more than one occasion ) just that those are short 8as with boulder problem cruxes.

[IanP]

7B+ to a trivial jug ladder (7a or whatever) is about 8a.

Very keen to know the names of some of these routes for a potential quick 8a tick 

As a weak sport climber who has managed to stuggle up 2 or 3 soft touch 8a's (Defcon anyone  ) , 7B+ sounds a  likely a bloody hard way to get a quick 8a tick 

[Bradders]

I think Out of My Tree and Rattle & Hump might be the sort of thing you’re after Liam.

If there's one thing a full season of sport climbing has taught me, it's that there's a lot more to successfully climbing a route than just being able to do the hardest boulder problem on it; doesn't make the rest of it easy!

  I wasn’t saying that I personally subscribe to the “sport routes with boulder problem cruxes are easy” philosophy (I fell off A Little Extra after doing the hard bit on more than one occasion ) just that those are short 8as with boulder problem cruxes.

Yeah my post was more directed at Liam than yourself Cheque 

7B+ to a trivial jug ladder (7a or whatever) is about 8a.

Very keen to know the names of some of these routes for a potential quick 8a tick 

As a weak sport climber who has managed to stuggle up 2 or 3 soft touch 8a's (Defcon anyone  ) , 7B+ sounds a  likely a bloody hard way to get a quick 8a tick 

Depends on lots of factors doesn't it. I do genuinely reckon Subculture does work out roughly to a (very long - 17 moves or so) 7B+ boulder followed by 7a climbing to the top.

[IanP]

7B+ to a trivial jug ladder (7a or whatever) is about 8a.

Very keen to know the names of some of these routes for a potential quick 8a tick 

As a weak sport climber who has managed to stuggle up 2 or 3 soft touch 8a's (Defcon anyone  ) , 7B+ sounds a  likely a bloody hard way to get a quick 8a tick 

Depends on lots of factors doesn't it. I do genuinely reckon Subculture does work out roughly to a (very long - 17 moves or so) 7B+ boulder followed by 7a climbing to the top.

I guess it possibly is though I've also heard slightly easier for the boulder grade - still too hard for me. My comment was very much from a personal perspective that climbing 7B+ (0) is harder than 8a (2), ymmv

[Will Hunt]

Sorry but no way is the start of Subculture that hard!
But also tricky to give a boulder grade to. I'd say it was a 7c or 7c+ to the rest.

[tim palmer]

This is all a bit  but entree at two tier,  about 7b+ then very straight forward

[Kingy]

It is absurd to think that Font 7B+ could be the crux of a 7c+, its far too hard for even the most bouldery route to be graded that easy (!) regardless of how easy the rest of it is, it would be at least 8a IMO. I reckon Jim doesn't really appreciate this and didn't really notice how hard the crux as it felt easy to him. Its problematic to grade something for somebody though...

[Fultonius]

It is absurd to think that Font 7B+ could be the crux of a 7c+, its far too hard for even the most bouldery route to be graded that easy (!) regardless of how easy the rest of it is, it would be at least 8a IMO. I reckon Jim doesn't really appreciate this and didn't really notice how hard the crux as it felt easy to him. Its problematic to grade something for somebody though...

The classic sandbags at Dumby are:

Omerta Fr7c: 

Start up Big Zipper Direct, passing 3 bolts (Possibly Font7b+ on its own). Rest on the ledge and continue up the RH side of the impressive arete above. Always needs a clean and is only F7c if you're an F8b climber...

And Dum Dum Boys Fr7c+:  Nope, scratch that, it's officially been regraded since hold loss to 8a+

And Tarrier F7c+: Harder than the (admittedly soft touch) F8a Sufferance. Stil not done it, but it it must get a pretty decent boulder grade for the lower crux? 7B?

Anyhoos....maybe this needs split?  How hard did you think the crux of Tarrier was @Adam Lincoln?

[Doylo]

Pete Robins thoughts on high E grades:

E8, E9, E10, E11 - none of it makes any sense. Why is everyone so stupid?

7B+/7c+ with highball start is all we need to know.

Even '7a' is ridiculous....covers font 7A-8A!

[Doylo]

It is absurd to think that Font 7B+ could be the crux of a 7c+, .

It obviously isn’t . One of them is wrong , maybe both.

[Andy F]

Gwennan at Dinbren (before it broke) was 7B/7B+ into a relative romp and was given 8a+ originally, but more like 7c+/8a

[Kingy]

I'm glad we're singing from the same hymn sheet then. Funny that there doesn't seem to be any guidance anywhere written down to delineate these matters.

E.g. just as an example for short bouldery routes where the main event is the crux:

Font 7A crux - French 7c...sorry can't think of one...
Font 7A+ - French 7c+ (The Pinch Test, Rubicon, The Maximum at Malham)
Font 7B - French 8a (Rattle and Hump/ Out of my Tree)
Font 7B+ - French 8a+ (Energy Vampire)
Font 7C - French 8b (Magnetic Fields/ Revelations)

Font 7C+ - French 8c (Make it Funky). Shame that Pump up the Power 8a+ breaks this system with a Font 7c+ crux!! albeit with next to no other climbing

[Andy F]

Chiseling at Malham is probably 7A into a romp and that's 7c

[Bradders]

Sorry but no way is the start of Subculture that hard!
But also tricky to give a boulder grade to. I'd say it was a 7c or 7c+ to the rest.

On the basis that it's roughly two 7A/V6 boulder problems back to back with no rest. Then using the standard equation; (6+6+4)/2= V8 or 7B, rounding up because V8 is a weird grade.

It's probably just wrong to give it a boulder grade though really, 7c+ route makes more sense. It's never taken me 8 sessions to do any other 7B at least 

[Bradders]

I'm glad we're singing from the same hymn sheet then. Funny that there doesn't seem to be any guidance anywhere written down to delineate these matters.

E.g. just as an example for short bouldery routes where the main event is the crux:

Font 7A crux - French 7c...sorry can't think of one...
Font 7A+ - French 7c+ (The Pinch Test, Rubicon, The Maximum at Malham)
Font 7B - French 8a (Rattle and Hump/ Out of my Tree)
Font 7B+ - French 8a+ (Energy Vampire)
Font 7C - French 8b (Magnetic Fields/ Revelations)

Font 7C+ - French 8c (Make it Funky). Shame that Pump up the Power 8a+ breaks this system with a Font 7c+ crux!! albeit with next to no other climbing

That all makes sense. As another example for 7A+ = 7c+; This is the Sea at Chee Dale Cornice is exactly this.

[CrimpyMcCrimpface]

I'm glad we're singing from the same hymn sheet then. Funny that there doesn't seem to be any guidance anywhere written down to delineate these matters.

E.g. just as an example for short bouldery routes where the main event is the crux:

Font 7A crux - French 7c...sorry can't think of one...
Font 7A+ - French 7c+ (The Pinch Test, Rubicon, The Maximum at Malham)
Font 7B - French 8a (Rattle and Hump/ Out of my Tree)
Font 7B+ - French 8a+ (Energy Vampire)
Font 7C - French 8b (Magnetic Fields/ Revelations)

Font 7C+ - French 8c (Make it Funky). Shame that Pump up the Power 8a+ breaks this system with a Font 7c+ crux!! albeit with next to no other climbing

That all makes sense. As another example for 7A+ = 7c+; This is the Sea at Chee Dale Cornice is exactly this.

Little Plum (bottom section) at Garage / Stoney

[petejh]

Wirral Whip (Llanddulas Cave). Font 7A/+. French 7c+

[Kingy]

Some good examples there. Its not a perfect system, just a rough guide really with the Tor being a bit prone to harder cruxes for a given French grade, e.g. in retrospect the overall Font grade of the whole of Rattle and Hump and Out of My Tree the routes (and not just the boulder problem starts) is probably Font 7B+ and not Font 7B. But I digress.

The point being in general that it should be impossible for a short boulder route to get below a certain French grade if it has a boulder problem of a certain Font grade. So Font 7B+ should equate to French 8a+ or so in this style of route.

[Stabbsy]

Sorry but no way is the start of Subculture that hard!
But also tricky to give a boulder grade to. I'd say it was a 7c or 7c+ to the rest.

On the basis that it's roughly two 7A/V6 boulder problems back to back with no rest. Then using the standard equation; (6+6+4)/2= V8 or 7B, rounding up because V8 is a weird grade.

It's probably just wrong to give it a boulder grade though really, 7c+ route makes more sense. It's never taken me 8 sessions to do any other 7B at least 

I can remember thinking 7B until I did it, then 7A+ after. Dropped the move into the undercut a couple of times and then (my mate) found a better way of doing the moves past the sidepulls/undercuts and did it straight away. I hadn’t done anything harder than 7B+ at the time so no way it was that hard.

[Aussiegav]

What about Too Old to be Bold @ WCJ?  How hard is the crux on that?  Route = 7c

[Kingy]

What about Too Old to be Bold @ WCJ?  How hard is the crux on that?  Route = 7c

Can't be more than Font 7A I reckon.

I agree Entree at Lower 2 Tier is Font 7B+ and therefore French 8a+. Always was a sandbag at 8a

[Bradders]

I guess it possibly is though I've also heard slightly easier for the boulder grade - still too hard for me. My comment was very much from a personal perspective that climbing 7B+ (0) is harder than 8a (2), ymmv

Sorry but no way is the start of Subculture that hard!
But also tricky to give a boulder grade to. I'd say it was a 7c or 7c+ to the rest.

On the basis that it's roughly two 7A/V6 boulder problems back to back with no rest. Then using the standard equation; (6+6+4)/2= V8 or 7B, rounding up because V8 is a weird grade.

It's probably just wrong to give it a boulder grade though really, 7c+ route makes more sense. It's never taken me 8 sessions to do any other 7B at least 

I can remember thinking 7B until I did it, then 7A+ after. Dropped the move into the undercut a couple of times and then (my mate) found a better way of doing the moves past the sidepulls/undercuts and did it straight away. I hadn’t done anything harder than 7B+ at the time so no way it was that hard.

Forgive me bleating on about this, I just find it fascinating reading these when I'm coming from completely the other end of the spectrum; in the context that, without tooting the old horn too much, I've done >300 7A+ - 7B+ boulder problems and very, very few of them took me even half the time it did to climb from the ground to the first jugs on Subculture.

With that in mind, it's easy to see how even 7B+ just doesn't make sense as an accurate way to describe the difficulties, so clearly my original suggestion was complete nonsense. As you were 

[Kingy]

Forgive me bleating on about this, I just find it fascinating reading these when I'm coming from completely the other end of the spectrum; in the context that, without tooting the old horn too much, I've done >300 7A+ - 7B+ boulder problems and very, very few of them took me even half the time it did to climb from the ground to the first jugs on Subculture.

With that in mind, it's easy to see how even 7B+ just doesn't make sense as an accurate way to describe the difficulties, so clearly my original suggestion was complete nonsense. As you were 

I think Subculture is a tricky one to shoehorn into the boulder route category as its more like a conventional sport route where power endurance and stamina kick in. The reason why people fall off the hard bit is usually because their power fails, not cos they can't do the moves.

The reason why most of the boulder routes on the list are in the Peak is because they really are short, glorified boulder problems for the most part (e.g Rattle and Hump etc) with hardly any other climbing of note. Perhaps it is misleading to read too much into all this as we all know that when different energy systems other than pure power kick in, bouldering only takes you so far! From a personal perspective, this year I have focussed less on bouldering and tied in more and think mileage on different routes seems to be a better plan of attack for limit sport climbs than a pre-occupation with training and bouldering.

[Will Hunt]

I guess it possibly is though I've also heard slightly easier for the boulder grade - still too hard for me. My comment was very much from a personal perspective that climbing 7B+ (0) is harder than 8a (2), ymmv

Sorry but no way is the start of Subculture that hard!
But also tricky to give a boulder grade to. I'd say it was a 7c or 7c+ to the rest.

On the basis that it's roughly two 7A/V6 boulder problems back to back with no rest. Then using the standard equation; (6+6+4)/2= V8 or 7B, rounding up because V8 is a weird grade.

It's probably just wrong to give it a boulder grade though really, 7c+ route makes more sense. It's never taken me 8 sessions to do any other 7B at least 

I can remember thinking 7B until I did it, then 7A+ after. Dropped the move into the undercut a couple of times and then (my mate) found a better way of doing the moves past the sidepulls/undercuts and did it straight away. I hadn’t done anything harder than 7B+ at the time so no way it was that hard.

Forgive me bleating on about this, I just find it fascinating reading these when I'm coming from completely the other end of the spectrum; in the context that, without tooting the old horn too much, I've done >300 7A+ - 7B+ boulder problems and very, very few of them took me even half the time it did to climb from the ground to the first jugs on Subculture.

With that in mind, it's easy to see how even 7B+ just doesn't make sense as an accurate way to describe the difficulties, so clearly my original suggestion was complete nonsense. As you were 

Yep, it's just that although it's one section of a longer route, it's still too long to describe with a boulder grade. You're loads stronger than me on the boulders and I linked through to the rest on my third session - the second of those sessions was an evening when much of the time was spent glueing the good hold at the end of the difficulties.
(Not meant to be a flex, just to reinforce my point).

[RobK]

Forgive me bleating on about this, I just find it fascinating reading these when I'm coming from completely the other end of the spectrum; in the context that, without tooting the old horn too much, I've done >300 7A+ - 7B+ boulder problems and very, very few of them took me even half the time it did to climb from the ground to the first jugs on Subculture.

With that in mind, it's easy to see how even 7B+ just doesn't make sense as an accurate way to describe the difficulties, so clearly my original suggestion was complete nonsense. As you were 

As well as what Will and Ted said, I think it's very easy to overstate boulder grades when on a rope. I find that the extra faff required to work them and the various logistics involved means that grades you would normally rinse pretty quickly above pads can take a lot longer.

[tim palmer]

I agree Entree at Lower 2 Tier is Font 7B+ and therefore French 8a+. Always was a sandbag at 8a

Obviously horses for courses etc but I think entree is no harder than R and H, also if it is 8a+ then there is only a grade between it and Kali yuga which is a solid 2 grades harder I think (is that still 8b).

[Kingy]

Obviously horses for courses etc but I think entree is no harder than R and H, also if it is 8a+ then there is only a grade between it and Kali yuga which is a solid 2 grades harder I think (is that still 8b).

I hear ya. Its been over a decade since I did either so perhaps some other keen UKBer's could go and do these to compare and contrast? Would be interested in some objective, recent assessment...

[iwasmexican]

isnt the crux on biographie only 7B+

[jwi]

well, it is about 8A to get to the second draw, non?

[Bonjoy]

I've always thought Entree should be 8a+. Way harder than R&H IMO. I did R&H in a session, thought it was one of the easiest 8as I'd ever done, and have still to do Entree, or more accurately have given up trying.

[abarro81]

Ha, I've not done R&H but when I went on it I thought it was harder than almost (all?) 8as I've ever done... The bit after the boulder felt like 7B+ in its own right for me (I think this may be quite specific to me - I felt like the normal sequence just didn't fit)

Ted's list doesn't quite work because this only works if the boulder grade is for the whole route (i.e. from pulling on the clipping the chains), not the crux.
e.g.
- OOMT is 7B start but if you include the bit going left it would probably be 7B+
- MIF is never 7C+ for the whole sequence, it's much harder
- Revelations and Magnetic it doesn't quite work because they're not isolated boulders with no climbing before/after

Anyway... just add 3 grades and it works about right i.e. a long 7B+ = a short 8a, like we had at the start. Which of course means that Jim was smoking crack to think that 7B+ into a bunch more climbing could be 7c+...

[IanP]

Anyway... just add 3 grades and it works about right i.e. a long 7B+ = a short 8a, like we had at the start. Which of course means that Jim was smoking crack to think that 7B+ into a bunch more climbing could be 7c+...

At lower grades I always worked on this basis - looking at it the other way longer 7As (e.g. Gorilla Warfare, Green Traverse) seemed to feel around equivalent to a 7b+ in terms of effort for me.

[Will Hunt]

looking at it the other way longer 7As (Green Traverse) seemed to feel around equivalent to a 7b+ in terms of effort for me.

I hope you mean the Green Traverse at Shipley Glen as opposed to that path at Stanage. The Glen version is given 7A and feels 7b+ to me.

[Dexter]

Anyway... just add 3 grades and it works about right i.e. a long 7B+ = a short 8a, like we had at the start. Which of course means that Jim was smoking crack to think that 7B+ into a bunch more climbing could be 7c+...

At lower grades I always worked on this basis - looking at it the other way longer 7As (e.g. Gorilla Warfare, Green Traverse) seemed to feel around equivalent to a 7b+ in terms of effort for me.

If we're looking at it the other way, isn't left wall traverse at parisellas considered somewhere around 7c (maybe+) but is 7B boulder. This would break the algorithm for calculating it here. Unless it's actually 7A+

[petejh]

Having a hands-off kneebar rest 3/4 way along helps keep the grade lower. If you had sustained climbing non-stop into the easy, but easily droppable when pumped finish then it would be more like hard french 7c+ imo.

[Dinodinosaur]

Reputedly Breathing Method at the cuttings is a V8 crux surrounded by trivial climbing and gets given 8a route. Next door in a similar style is hall of mirrors with a V5 crux and that gets soft 7c.

[abarro81]

As I already said, you have to grade from leaving the floor to clipping the chains. Easy climbing into a 7B probably ends up being 7B+...

[remus]

As I already said, you have to grade from leaving the floor to clipping the chains. Easy climbing into a 7B probably ends up being 7B+...

Can confirm. The start of breathing method has a few moves in to the boulder problem and it definitely feels pretty 8a+ to me (or a grade harder than fighting torque).

[cowboyhat]

There are loads and loads of routes on peak lime with relatively steady bits either side of a crux boulder problem which is the real meat of the route.

In the Font 7b+ range i immediately think of Zeke which before and after the crux is about sport 7b = Route gets 8b.

So Jim's maths are wrong and the first ascensionist might be closer....?

[Stewart]

So, i've worked a very short route. 3 bolts. 6 move 7B+/7C boulder problem off the ground to a decent hold, then 3 move 7A/+ boulder problem to the lip. I've hardly done any sport climbing so struggling to grade it (if i ever actually get it done). Was thinking about 8a but judging by this thread it should be more like 8a+/8b?

[jwi]

Was thinking about 8a but judging by this thread it should be more like 8a+/8b?

If the boulder grades are correct and the last 7A+ bit very short (sounds like it) I would guess that it would feel like 8a+ if I found the decent hold decent and 8b if I did not. But then again I am spoiled for choice and usually avoid these kind of routes. Especially if the boulder of the ground is harder than 7B.

[Fultonius]

So, i've worked a very short route. 3 bolts. 6 move 7B+/7C boulder problem off the ground to a decent hold, then 3 move 7A/+ boulder problem to the lip. I've hardly done any sport climbing so struggling to grade it (if i ever actually get it done). Was thinking about 8a but judging by this thread it should be more like 8a+/8b?

Where's this?  And...is that IT Stu?  Or are you a.n. other Stu...?

[cowboyhat]

Yes definitely; 7c boulder is harder than 8a sport.

[Stewart]

So, i've worked a very short route. 3 bolts. 6 move 7B+/7C boulder problem off the ground to a decent hold, then 3 move 7A/+ boulder problem to the lip. I've hardly done any sport climbing so struggling to grade it (if i ever actually get it done). Was thinking about 8a but judging by this thread it should be more like 8a+/8b?

Where's this?  And...is that IT Stu?  Or are you a.n. other Stu...?

No i'm not IT Stu which makes me A.N Other Stew i guess. Its a bit eliminate and not exactly classic but will make a good edition if i ever get round to it getting a belayer on it and linking it. Forgive me if i don't mention where just yet :-)

[Davo]

I thought Caviar was about the equivalent of a long font 7C and that is 8a+. So what you describe sounds harder again.

[Johnny Brown]

Yes definitely; 7c boulder is harder than 8a sport.

Not for me.

[Wood FT]

Yes definitely; 7c boulder is harder than 8a sport.

Not for me.

On limestone? 

[Fiend]

Depends what grit F8as JB has been lapping....

[mark s]

Obsession fatale.
Really easy slab into a 6b section you don't want to fall off.