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Topic split: Stealth bolts on Anglesey (Read 11917 times)

edshakey

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b: - I was in the same bay some time after and found a rock with lots of small ~6mm holes drilled in it.  It was in the days of 24v NiCd batteries and it was standard practice to completely drain your battery once you'd finished using it by drilling more holes prior to recharging it, as it maintained the life of the batteries.

I heard Jealous Pensioner was just an accumulation of attempts to drain drill batteries - they must have only had XXL drill bits that day. ;D

SamT

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 :lol:

Fiend

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Cross-posting this over here (where I should have asked the question...)

Quote
Now you can answer my prior question: are all the new bolts drilled and cemented there? And do you think any have been added, or are they just replacing old / removed bolts?

Yes they’re cemented, and yes they will have had the placement drilled to accept the resin and the bolt. It’s not possible to say 100% for certain, without being there during placement, whether or not every one of them has been drilled because there *might* have been a nice convenient 12mm diameter 100mm deep hole in the part of the crack where the bolt is placed. Allowing it to have had the resin pumped in and then push in the bolt by hand (they aren’t designed to be hammered due to being stainless). But what do you think the likelihood is of that…

So there you are. Mountain crag trad-climbing with resin bolts protecting. Rhoscolyn sea cliff-climbing on resin bolts.
That’s what we’re doing. I’m fine with it where it climbs well. What I’m not fine with is what appears to me to be a sort of complicit wilful ignorance surrounding these bolts. I think we should be honest about what these pieces of protection are, not spinning people some bullshit about them being pegs.

Stealth bolts on mountain crags too (Clogwyn Yr Adar and Castell Cidwm (the things at Cidwm are identical to the things at Adar, I wasn't peering too closely on the Central Wall crux (slopers in the sun!!) to check for resin glue....).

Next question is: Who is doing all this??

Fultonius

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Stealth pegs in the mountains, been going on since...Slochd Wall?  Drzzzz drzzzzz


JamesTaylor

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Hi Pete,

So to answer a load of questions and pick out some issues I'm joining in the discussion late to the game here.

I replaced the old pegs with the new glue in bolts. I have only ever referred to them as bolts or sometimes 'pegbolts' when talking about them, I have never tried to be "stealth" about them in any way, I have always been honest when asked. I asked many people about using them before going ahead for example I asked Caff (the climbing partner you refer to in your post for anyone who doesn't know) who encouraged me to use the 'pegbolts' if there was no other way.

The reason I replaced the pegs on EE was because when I tried to shunt the route (hadn't been climbed in 25 years) I back-clipped my rope into the old pegs to keep me in. When I weighted the rope multiple peg heads snapped off. There were a total of 18 pegs in EE (yes 18 pegs  in 12m) before the join with SA, presumably placed by Twid in 1994/5. All the pegs in EE were totally rotten and unusable. The route has no natural gear so the only option was to replace them or call it a defunct route. I talked to the north wales bolt fund, the first ascensionist (Twit) and people in the community I was generally encouraged to use the 'pegbolts' as this is the most sustainable solution. I think 6 evenly spaced pegbolts in the holes left by the old rusted pegs (that took me a very long time to clean out) is much better than 18 rusted pegs that wouldn't hold the weight of a quickdraw. IDK but that makes a lot on sense to me!

I'm sure Caff went for the EE into groove line as I had recently published a topo and left that line as a open project, Caff seems to like the experience of an FA so I'm guessing that's why he went for that one rather than the numerous 3 star routes on that wall. Fine no issues there - enjoy yourself, I'm glad someone enjoyed the open projects. But to just go on this link and then to say the wall is now a sport venue is just very wrong Pete. The only route with the pegbolts is EE (and EE/groove as that uses EE). There is 1 at the top of the groove as I thought that was the Finish to EE as the old Guidebook had suggested which now acts as the final pegbolt for the link. Caff even reported this route when he did the FA as an 8a rather than a trad grade, I agree with that appraisal. No-one else has climbed this link to date (to my knowledge) so I don't know who all these people you are talking about are who are claiming trad grades for sport routes. EE the line goes into SA at half height, it is true that the first half is on pegbolts but the top has a good size runout and requires gear in the top section, it's not a sport route be any means. Surreal Appeal does not use any of the pegbolts on EE.

Surreal Appeal had 9 pegs when I found it - 3 remain and are basically useless the other 6 are lumps of rust. I have climbed SA with and without clipping the pegs, first with, then without to prove a point to myself that makes no difference to the grade as the pegs are mostly next to good cams anyway. You said “(He'd [Caff] done Surreal Appeal years ago OS before it was re-equipped with glue-ins).” Surreal Appeal has NO pegbolts at all- get your facts strait before spraying BS on the web! It goes on natural pro so should stay on natural pro, I didn't replace any of the rotten pegs because of the natural pro. EE had no natural pro so would be defunct without them, therefore I replaced them. 

To be clear, there are no bolt belays, or pegbolt belays or anything fixed (besides 1 stake). The belay is just some boulders, 1 was already there and the other 2 I asked the farmer to put there with his tractor - about as natural as it gets. There is a stake in the turf I placed near the top of Prisioners of the sun so I could put in a rope 5m left of the stones and practice it on my own.

I have since cleaned and climbed 3 more routes on the wall, none of which use any pegs, pegbolts or anything else fixed! None of the new routes on that wall have fixed gear, a conscious effort to reduce the problem of using unsustainable methods that stop the enjoyment of future generations. This is best practice for moving forward IMO, there is no fixed gear on any of the 20+ new routes I've done in Wales. The only fixed gear I have ever replaced  are these pegs on EE and the 1 at the top of the groove, as I have already explained this is because the route is a solo without them.

Fiend

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Good explanatory post. Do you know who put the retro-peg-bolts in Clogwyn Yr Adar by any chance??

northern yob

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Hi Pete,

So to answer a load of questions and pick out some issues I'm joining in the discussion late to the game here.

I replaced the old pegs with the new glue in bolts. I have only ever referred to them as bolts or sometimes 'pegbolts' when talking about them, I have never tried to be "stealth" about them in any way, I have always been honest when asked. I asked many people about using them before going ahead for example I asked Caff (the climbing partner you refer to in your post for anyone who doesn't know) who encouraged me to use the 'pegbolts' if there was no other way.

The reason I replaced the pegs on EE was because when I tried to shunt the route (hadn't been climbed in 25 years) I back-clipped my rope into the old pegs to keep me in. When I weighted the rope multiple peg heads snapped off. There were a total of 18 pegs in EE (yes 18 pegs  in 12m) before the join with SA, presumably placed by Twid in 1994/5. All the pegs in EE were totally rotten and unusable. The route has no natural gear so the only option was to replace them or call it a defunct route. I talked to the north wales bolt fund, the first ascensionist (Twit) and people in the community I was generally encouraged to use the 'pegbolts' as this is the most sustainable solution. I think 6 evenly spaced pegbolts in the holes left by the old rusted pegs (that took me a very long time to clean out) is much better than 18 rusted pegs that wouldn't hold the weight of a quickdraw. IDK but that makes a lot on sense to me!

I'm sure Caff went for the EE into groove line as I had recently published a topo and left that line as a open project, Caff seems to like the experience of an FA so I'm guessing that's why he went for that one rather than the numerous 3 star routes on that wall. Fine no issues there - enjoy yourself, I'm glad someone enjoyed the open projects. But to just go on this link and then to say the wall is now a sport venue is just very wrong Pete. The only route with the pegbolts is EE (and EE/groove as that uses EE). There is 1 at the top of the groove as I thought that was the Finish to EE as the old Guidebook had suggested which now acts as the final pegbolt for the link. Caff even reported this route when he did the FA as an 8a rather than a trad grade, I agree with that appraisal. No-one else has climbed this link to date (to my knowledge) so I don't know who all these people you are talking about are who are claiming trad grades for sport routes. EE the line goes into SA at half height, it is true that the first half is on pegbolts but the top has a good size runout and requires gear in the top section, it's not a sport route be any means. Surreal Appeal does not use any of the pegbolts on EE.

Surreal Appeal had 9 pegs when I found it - 3 remain and are basically useless the other 6 are lumps of rust. I have climbed SA with and without clipping the pegs, first with, then without to prove a point to myself that makes no difference to the grade as the pegs are mostly next to good cams anyway. You said “(He'd [Caff] done Surreal Appeal years ago OS before it was re-equipped with glue-ins).” Surreal Appeal has NO pegbolts at all- get your facts strait before spraying BS on the web! It goes on natural pro so should stay on natural pro, I didn't replace any of the rotten pegs because of the natural pro. EE had no natural pro so would be defunct without them, therefore I replaced them. 

To be clear, there are no bolt belays, or pegbolt belays or anything fixed (besides 1 stake). The belay is just some boulders, 1 was already there and the other 2 I asked the farmer to put there with his tractor - about as natural as it gets. There is a stake in the turf I placed near the top of Prisioners of the sun so I could put in a rope 5m left of the stones and practice it on my own.

I have since cleaned and climbed 3 more routes on the wall, none of which use any pegs, pegbolts or anything else fixed! None of the new routes on that wall have fixed gear, a conscious effort to reduce the problem of using unsustainable methods that stop the enjoyment of future generations. This is best practice for moving forward IMO, there is no fixed gear on any of the 20+ new routes I've done in Wales. The only fixed gear I have ever replaced  are these pegs on EE and the 1 at the top of the groove, as I have already explained this is because the route is a solo without them.

 :wall: :wall: Not sure I’ve got the strength for this….

JamesTaylor

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Good explanatory post. Do you know who put the retro-peg-bolts in Clogwyn Yr Adar by any chance??

I don't know who placed the ones at Clogwyn Yr Adar. A bunch of new stuff was done around the same time the pegbolts appeared there, I'm not saying that it was them, but the peeps who did the new stuff might be good people to ask about it.

petejh

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Thanks for posting James.

Quote
I asked Caff (the climbing partner you refer to in your post for anyone who doesn't know)

Caff wasn’t my climbing partner when I climbed there, and I wasn’t referring to Caff in my post. Therefore many of the rest of your assumptions around Caff climbing the routes are incorrect because my post isn’t about him. Other climbers have been on those routes.. I was with one of them.


Quote
You said “(He'd [Caff] done Surreal Appeal years ago OS before it was re-equipped with glue-ins).” Surreal Appeal has NO pegbolts at all- get your facts strait before spraying BS on the web! It goes on natural pro so should stay on natural pro, I didn't replace any of the rotten pegs because of the natural pro. EE had no natural pro so would be defunct without them, therefore I replaced them.

Regards Surreal Appeal, again I’m not talking about Caff here, so the assumptions you're making are incorrect. Other climbers have onsighted this route, they’re more under the radar than Caff. It’s unimportant who the climber was but rest assured he had climbed SA o/s years ago. I thought at least one of the glue-in bolts was clippable on SA but I take your point that it isn't a clip-up.


Quote
I talked to the north wales bolt fund, the first ascensionist (Twit) and people in the community I was generally encouraged to use the 'pegbolts' as this is the most sustainable solution.

To be told by these people that ‘peg bolts are the most sustainable solution’ - and for you to believe it and repeat that line - is somewhat disingenuous and exactly the sort of bollocks that people roll out when an issue is controversial enough to not want to tackle head-on but they want to get something done. ‘Pegbolts’ are *a* sustainable solution, they aren’t *the most* sustainable solution. They're a fudge, to avoid people seeing bolts on these cliffs by disguising bolts as pegs.

Well placed glue-in 316 bolts would be the most sustainable solution from a protection POV. A glue-in 'pegbolt', that looks like a peg becuase it's been placed in a recess as per a typical peg placement, (but requires placing like a bolt because it is a bolt), in a way that makes it slightly tricky to clip, in a recess where it can cross-loads a biner etc. This is not 'the most sustainable solution' if we're talking about placing bolts on routes.
The underlying issue on this cliff and the surrounding area (Gogarth/Rhoscolyn) is that bolts are obvious, and people don’t like bolts on these cliffs (rightly or wrongly, that’s open to debate). So, the lines have been deliberately blurred by the invention of peg-bolts, i.e. bolts look like pegs, to avoid the difficult issue of placing bolts openly. I strongly suggest the underlying motive is disingenuous – not from you - the whole ‘peg-bolt’ invention is, and people who go along with it are kidding themselves with 'it's the most sustainable solution'. Don't misunderstand me - it actually might be... But people aren't being very honest about the whole thing which I think is a shit way to be.

The obvious direction of travel is more routes that were ruined in the 80s and 90s by being pegged to death to make an FA will either be bolted to make them great routes, some might be done completely on gear, or left unclimbed because the pegs are trash. I don't have strong opinions either way on what should happen but whatever's done should be done honestly.



« Last Edit: May 25, 2022, 11:48:47 am by petejh »

JamesTaylor

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Ok my assumption it was Caff was wrong there are plenty of under the radar wads about but that doesn't change the point.

None of the pegbolts are clipable from SA without a good traverse off to the right, SA has been maintained in its origional condition, albeit sub a few rusted pegs now-a-days.

Granted pegbolts may not be the best or only solution to the problem created by past ethics of anything goes re pegs, but they are much more long term than any other practice ive seen used so far.

The pegbolts I placed should / could have gone in slightly better places for clipping but that would have required a drill rather than an excavation of the old peg placement (some of which were already drilled). It is annoying and does mean that 2 of the the pegbolts need tying off so no crossloading action occurs. This is regrettable, perhaps I should go back and take those 2 out and place them in good rock in the flow of the climb where a well placed bolt would go, using a drill.

 "wanting to get stuff done" wasn't my motive when putting the pegbolts in EE, I would have preferred to do it on gear but none exists. I was very careful not to effect any other routes in the process.

I sort of agree with you that the lines have been blurred deliberately so the pegbolta can go under the radar. Perhaps a wider discussion could have been had years ago before they were used. I asked a lot of people before I used them and nobody said anything againced them in placements where nothing else was possible and a route would be made climbable again. Perhaps I just selected people who were already on board with them in some sort of unconscious bias?

I was honest at the time I placed them, and I'm honest about them now. I agree, transparency is key to a good discussion.

Ps. Sorry for getting in a bit of a rant on my post last night, it was late and I was feeling tired and defensive  :yawn:



northern yob

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The pegbolts I placed should / could have gone in slightly better places for clipping but that would have required a drill rather than an excavation of the old peg placement (some of which were already drilled). It is annoying and does mean that 2 of the the pegbolts need tying off so no crossloading action occurs. This is regrettable, perhaps I should go back and take those 2 out and place them in good rock in the flow of the climb where a well placed bolt would go, using a drill.

WTF!!  Guess what? I’m banging the same old drum….. leave the fucking drill at home! It’s a sea cliff in a trad climbing area. We shouldn’t be drilling holes or putting pegs in…. Or fuck it and just bolt the crag! That’ll be way more convenient, probably be popular too.

Sorry I couldn’t resist.

Fiend

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Nice one Ken  :bounce:

peterherd

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"the route is a solo without them"

"(for most) unreasonably bold E7"

...

Only apply when people approach their subjective comfort limit? It's not only about the walls between the cracks either because there are bolts adjacent to standard gear placements in The Cruise, The Horrorshow,  Quickstep. Should we also be talking about bold E1's "if there was no other way" or is it only relevant for E6+? Or should we be accepting that when past protagonists created climbs on pegs, that these were ultimately unsustainable with the maintenance of our shared ethics?

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The pegbolts I placed should / could have gone in slightly better places for clipping but that would have required a drill rather than an excavation of the old peg placement (some of which were already drilled). It is annoying and does mean that 2 of the the pegbolts need tying off so no crossloading action occurs. This is regrettable, perhaps I should go back and take those 2 out and place them in good rock in the flow of the climb where a well placed bolt would go, using a drill.

WTF!!  Guess what? I’m banging the same old drum….. leave the fucking drill at home! It’s a sea cliff in a trad climbing area. We shouldn’t be drilling holes or putting pegs in…. Or fuck it and just bolt the crag! That’ll be way more convenient, probably be popular too.

Sorry I couldn’t resist.

James isn't saying bolt the crag!

Duncan campbell

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"the route is a solo without them"

"(for most) unreasonably bold E7"

...

Only apply when people approach their subjective comfort limit? It's not only about the walls between the cracks either because there are bolts adjacent to standard gear placements in The Cruise, The Horrorshow,  Quickstep. Should we also be talking about bold E1's "if there was no other way" or is it only relevant for E6+? Or should we be accepting that when past protagonists created climbs on pegs, that these were ultimately unsustainable with the maintenance of our shared ethics?

In fairness to James it wasn’t him who put the pegbolts in the cruise, horror show or quickstep.

Moo

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I'm just waiting for someone to come along with a comment about how trivial this discussion is in the wider context of us being on the brink of world war 3 and how we shouldn't even be wasting our time discussing it.

We really need to come up with a term for that style of post as it happens pretty often.

Fiend

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The pegbolts I placed should / could have gone in slightly better places for clipping but that would have required a drill rather than an excavation of the old peg placement (some of which were already drilled). It is annoying and does mean that 2 of the the pegbolts need tying off so no crossloading action occurs. This is regrettable, perhaps I should go back and take those 2 out and place them in good rock in the flow of the climb where a well placed bolt would go, using a drill.

WTF!!  Guess what? I’m banging the same old drum….. leave the fucking drill at home! It’s a sea cliff in a trad climbing area. We shouldn’t be drilling holes or putting pegs in…. Or fuck it and just bolt the crag! That’ll be way more convenient, probably be popular too.

Sorry I couldn’t resist.
LOL, I can't believe you feel for that bait (slow reply but I've only just re-read James' post).

Perhaps a wider discussion could have been had years ago before they were used. I asked a lot of people before I used them and nobody said anything againced them in placements where nothing else was possible and a route would be made climbable again. Perhaps I just selected people who were already on board with them in some sort of unconscious bias?
I strongly suspect this is about right. Asking the North Wales Bolt Fund hmmmm..... And the person who laced it with pegs in the first place....

I'm just waiting for someone to come along with a comment about how trivial this discussion is in the wider context of us being on the brink of world war 3 and how we shouldn't even be wasting our time discussing it.

We really need to come up with a term for that style of post as it happens pretty often.
I'm pretty sure That Style Of Post could be used to attempt, and fail to, negate most discussions on this forum. Unless WW3 will severely affect the price of pegbolts....

SA Chris

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We really need to come up with a term for that style of post as it happens pretty often.

something like Godwin's law. Don't think it happens that often on UKB

jwi

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We really need to come up with a term for that style of post as it happens pretty often.

something like Godwin's law. Don't think it happens that often on UKB

Surely no one here thinks that there is anything more important than climbing anyway? If so, burn the heretic!

SA Chris

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 To paraphrase Billl Shankly  "Somebody said that climbingfootball's a matter of life and death to you, I said 'listen, it's more important than that'."

Teaboy

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How easy is it to set up a top rope on this wall and where can I find details of the routes etc? Are they in Gogarth South? I’m stuck for climbing partners and looking for venues for getting fit on

petejh

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Easy. Footpath goes along the top of the crag, there’s a boulder and an old stake to rig a shunt line. The rock’s a bit loose where you first go over the edge, but it’s OK because you can isolate the rope into one of the 8 bolts below if working Easel EE.   :)

Painted Wall is in the Gogarth south guide with the two E7s Easel EE and Surreal Appeal shown. Newer routes (non-bolted) can be found on James Taylor’s blog.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2022, 11:49:30 pm by petejh »

Johnny Brown

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#72 Re: Topic split: Stealth bolts on Anglesey
December 10, 2022, 11:35:35 am
Just re-reading this and realised I’d missed this gem first time round:

Quote
The belay is just some boulders, 1 was already there and the other 2 I asked the farmer to put there with his tractor - about as natural as it gets.


 

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