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Topic split: Stealth bolts on Anglesey (Read 11920 times)

ali k

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On your use of that popular old chesnut of 'accepting what the rock offers'. I'd counter that pegs don't accept what the rock offers but rather they batter the rock into submission until it accepts what the peg is offering! Multiple hammer blows does not imply acceptance on behalf of the receiver!
Exactly. This hammering of bits of metal into ‘natural’ placements is what’s turned what should be an easy distinction to make into the fudgy murky mess that we have now.

Fiend

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While we're here I'll throw this into the melting pot of absolutely rational and clear cut distinctions between trad crags and sport crags (because of course climbing fundamentally works as unarguably black and white guidelines and never as a fudgy murky mess of grey areas) etc etc.

Hell's Wall, Bowderstone Crag. IIRC it has either 11 or 13 pegs, some reasonable, some poor, and almost no natural gear on it (I watched Adam working it). How many bolts would be needed to provide a reasonably protected sport route, and would that be an improvement or regression in fixed gear ethics??

petejh

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I feel like the semantics of whether these are 'bolts' or 'pegs' is an unhelpful distraction.

They are what they are, which is effectively a slightly different thing in different cases:

Durable fixed protection that may or may not be drilled*, may or may not be resined*, and may or may not replace a previously existing piece of fixed protection.

I'm all for them if they replace what was formerly a good peg in a route which would be significantly compromised by the absence of something in that place - i.e. a route like Barbarossa, which changes from an excellent E6 to a (for most) unreasonably bold E7 without that single piece. Old rusty pegs are bullshit - if there's going to be a piece of fixed protection, it might as well be good, or at least be such that someone who didn't place it can make as informed a judgement about it as the person that did (which is usually the case for threads).

Clearly people will differ on where to draw the line on how 'necessary' fixed protection is for maintaining the character of a given route, or whether that character is worth maintaining. It seems impossible that there will ever be an established consensus on this, or a set of guidelines that don't sprout a thousand exceptions.

Out of interest, in the case of the Rhoscolyn routes, do these boltpegbolts replace existing pegs?
And is this in any way animated by people promoting big-number trad ascents that are actually quasi-sport?


*In most cases, by the sound of it, the former.


Andy, I'm in general agreement about good routes being preserved by intelligent use of good sustainable fixed protection.
I'm not objecting to good fixed gear being placed where deemed sensible. What I object to is the story that's told about it.

By which I mean the narrative being spun about these non-pegs is a bullshit narrative designed to subtly deceive climbers into thinking drilled glued bolts aren't being placed on trad routes. They are, and that should be made transparent and then people can deal with their thoughts about it in a rational process of investigating what it is about this arbitrary game of climbing they most value and what change they can accept.
The current ethic of quietly pretending these pieces of fixed gear are 'replacement pegs' - which paints the picture of traditional old-school ideas of trad - to me is deliberately misleading and that deception has the unintended longer term consequence of leading other climbers, who don't have access to these stainless glue-in pegbolts, to think that it's acceptable to be placing yet more mild steel pegs on sea cliffs. Repeating the cycle of 'bullshit rotting pegs' into the future. When instead we could be honest about the need to do something better and that it's probably going to need to involve a drill, resin and stainless bolts in some cases. The 'bolts' can look like pegs if it offends people's sensibilities that much. Just be honest that they're still bolts. 
« Last Edit: October 02, 2021, 10:26:17 am by petejh »

Fiend

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So is your stance "Retro the fuck out of Gogarth etc, as long as you're clear, open, and honest about it" ??  :yes:

Tony S

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I think the problem is that the perfect solution (a consensus) is extremely difficult/unlikely to achieve. The use of stainless steel fixed gear to replace rotten hammered gear was a pragmatic solution available in the present.

I think the answer to Andy's questions about whether the Painted Wall routes had pegs replaced or added is relevant.

I think the use of stainless steel gear is unlikely to promote placement of mild steel pegs because it's counter to that (the point is the longevity), and -moreover- is actually quite a lot of work and few seem keen to do it.

(Does anyone go trad'ing these days anyway?)

petejh

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I think the use of stainless steel gear is unlikely to promote placement of mild steel pegs because it's counter to that (the point is the longevity), and -moreover- is actually quite a lot of work and few seem keen to do it.


Well the example of painted wall suggests that isn't true, because newly placed mild steel pegs *have* also been placed on projects to the right of Easel-EE from the looks of it.

Like I say, the inevitable consequence of spinning a deceptive narrative* that makes pegs look acceptable on sea-cliffs... is yet more pegs on sea-cliffs, many of which inevitably won't be stainless resin'd bomber bolts.



*That isn't aimed at any one person in case of doubt, it's just a fairly predictable consequence of decisions made by multiple people.

Fiend

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(Does anyone go trad'ing these days anyway?)
Me, I love it, especially when there's pegs to clip.

The question as to whether the bolts are replacing pegs or adding to them is indeed relevant and hopefully a bit more clear cut, i.e. hopefully that shouldn't bloody happen unless there's been a clear and deliberate consensus to turn a crag into a sport crag.

petejh

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That sounds entirely sensible but it falls down. On routes that are very heavily pegged, as is the case with the painted wall routes (among others.. the various roofs @ Gogarth..) it isn't black and white to know what's a replacement and what's a new placement. How many pegs were originally in place isn't something well-known or accurately recorded. Go on - how many in-situ pegs on 4th Dimension RoofRack at Gogarth? Do we break the rules if we replace with 9 bolts instead of 7 pegs or 11 bolts instead of 12 pegs? Who's count? What about blown pegs?


edit: wrong route not F.D
« Last Edit: October 02, 2021, 11:10:57 am by petejh »

Fiend

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What French grade is 4th Dimension now and do you lower-off into the sea??


P.S. Yes sounds like issues well worth debating. It's almost like the whole thing is full of complexities, nuances, grey areas, etc  :-\

andy moles

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By which I mean the narrative being spun about these non-pegs is a bullshit narrative designed to subtly deceive climbers into thinking drilled glued bolts aren't being placed on trad routes. They are, and that should be made transparent and then people can deal with their thoughts about it in a rational process of investigating what it is about this arbitrary game of climbing they most value and what change they can accept.
The current ethic of quietly pretending these pieces of fixed gear are 'replacement pegs' - which paints the picture of traditional old-school ideas of trad - to me is deliberately misleading and that deception has the unintended longer term consequence of leading other climbers, who don't have access to these stainless glue-in pegbolts, to think that it's acceptable to be placing yet more mild steel pegs on sea cliffs. Repeating the cycle of 'bullshit rotting pegs' into the future. When instead we could be honest about the need to do something better and that it's probably going to need to involve a drill, resin and stainless bolts in some cases. The 'bolts' can look like pegs if it offends people's sensibilities that much. Just be honest that they're still bolts.

I broadly agree with you on this, though I'm not totally convinced on a couple of points (and I concede this may depend on the detail of conversations with protagonists that paint these things in a different light)...

On the point of deliberate deception - well firstly, as this thread shows, it's not a very good deception! But I agree there is a knowing muddying of the water with these - it is obvious that they are intended to slip by where a shiny Petzl bolt hanger visible from the ground would quickly draw attention. On the one hand, you can interpret this as underhanded and exploitative of climbers' good faith ethics, but more generously, you could say that it's a pragmatic and unobtrusive solution to a fairly irresolvable grey area. Is it possible they could actually encourage a more rational investigation of fixed-gear ethics, even if it is seemingly smuggled in the back door?

Also, if they are only replacing existing pegs*, in places where the peg makes a significant different to the safety of the route, then the fact that they are sequestered in apparent weaknesses in the rock and painted so as not to glint in the sunshine has an aesthetic appeal that isn't necessarily only about hiding what they are?

Partly I'm playing devil's advocate here, the jury's out for me and in the recent proliferation of these things in N Wales there are some I'd support and others not so much.


* I know this hasn't always been the case

petejh

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I was of pretty much exactly the opinions above when the pegbolts started going in around 5 years ago.
More recently I've seen them spread to Forwyn where I think - and know I'm not alone - that they've been overdone a little but in general make the crag better. Painted Walls was the point where I thought it's just got a bit silly and the story we're telling ourselves is a bit too disingenuous for comfort because it's basically a sport crag on the beach, disguised as trad. Nothing wrong with beaches and sport crags. I'm a big fan. Call it what it is.

Fiend

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Pete, by any chance do you know if the ones placed at Adar are all like-for-like replacements of existing pegs, or if some of those are additional pegs that add more fixed gear to the routes compared to how they were originally??

Fultonius

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I was of pretty much exactly the opinions above when the pegbolts started going in around 5 years ago.
More recently I've seen them spread to Forwyn where I think - and know I'm not alone - that they've been overdone a little but in general make the crag better. Painted Walls was the point where I thought it's just got a bit silly and the story we're telling ourselves is a bit too disingenuous for comfort because it's basically a sport crag on the beach, disguised as trad. Nothing wrong with beaches and sport crags. I'm a big fan. Call it what it is.

I've climbed at Rhoscolyn, but not painted wall, so I'm not sure of the "feel". However, it strikes me that perhaps the reason that they now feel less satisfactory as a "well pegged trad route" is because they were a bit nonsense in their original guise? I.e. a trad route that needs 9/10 pegs and has no fixed ain't really in keeping with the general UK ethic of trad. Could it be argued that It's a route that rightly *should have* been a sport route in the first place? Hence why it now feels contrived / unsatisfactory?



petejh

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Pete, by any chance do you know if the ones placed at Adar are all like-for-like replacements of existing pegs, or if some of those are additional pegs that add more fixed gear to the routes compared to how they were originally??

If the one near Dolwyddelan then I haven't climbed there sorry. Tried to go last month but couldn't park! Keen for a trip though.

andy moles

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Looking at the UKC logbook for Easel-EE and Surreal Appeal, various comments from this summer imply (respectively) that there is a fair bit of gear to be placed on lead, and that not all the pegs are reliable - have they been very recently re-equipped, or are some of those comments a little misleading?

petejh

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I'd say the comments are misleading.

My climbing partner tried to onsight Easel-EE into Painted Groove, it looking like the most appealing and obvious visual line. (He'd done Surreal Appeal years ago OS before it was re-equipped with glue-ins). He took a small rack of wires & cams and climbed to the 8th peg on the picture below, on lead onsight, without placing a single piece of gear as the pegs are glue'd in bolts except for the 4th (backed up by a glue-in) and the 8th which is a standard peg. He didn't OS it, had to take rests in various spots. I top-roped it, not cleanly, overall it felt quite stiff 8a. We both agreed we felt it was like average quality sport climbing, although I didn't have the benefit of being on lead.

My first visit to the crag was this week so I can't comment on when the resin pegbolts were placed. Topo suggests 2019.

The below pic illustrates what we climbed. Easel-EE into Painted Groove (the most obvious visual line we thought). The black dots are the pegbolts. The 4th is a standard peg (backed up by glue-in), the 8th is a standard peg. Top out is easier and rambly, pretty chossy.


 
« Last Edit: October 02, 2021, 12:26:46 pm by petejh »

andy moles

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Thanks for the info. Sunny sporty climbing off the beach sounds good, though it's interesting your quality assessment is more in line with the guidebook than whoever has gone full razz with the stars on that topo.

DAVETHOMAS90

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I was of pretty much exactly the opinions above when the pegbolts started going in around 5 years ago.
More recently I've seen them spread to Forwyn where I think - and know I'm not alone - that they've been overdone a little but in general make the crag better. Painted Walls was the point where I thought it's just got a bit silly and the story we're telling ourselves is a bit too disingenuous for comfort because it's basically a sport crag on the beach, disguised as trad. Nothing wrong with beaches and sport crags. I'm a big fan. Call it what it is.

I've climbed at Rhoscolyn, but not painted wall, so I'm not sure of the "feel". However, it strikes me that perhaps the reason that they now feel less satisfactory as a "well pegged trad route" is because they were a bit nonsense in their original guise? I.e. a trad route that needs 9/10 pegs and has no fixed ain't really in keeping with the general UK ethic of trad. Could it be argued that It's a route that rightly *should have* been a sport route in the first place? Hence why it now feels contrived / unsatisfactory?

A lot of the sport climbs in Devon were first put up with pegs - e.g Empire of the Sun, Just Revenge etc at Anstey's, before getting retro'd later.

Looking at the crag, I can see it getting de-bolted as much as properly bolted. The fudge is what's wrong here in my opinion. It's what leads to more established areas getting bolted "by stealth".

Cut the crap re using glued/drilled pegs as bolts, and make a better decision. It's a great looking wall.
Bolts are just getting sprayed everywhere now, with a lot of the routes just meaningless dross.

It's the way the decision gets made that leads to the unsatisfactory outcome. I ripped drilled pegs out of The Sanctuary Wall in Devon, but there are routes there which might be better preserved with a bolt. There's a long history of trad routes being established with the odd bolt for protection, being subsequently removed - or occasionally not.

I wonder what the routes would be like without the fixed gear?

Adam Lincoln

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Not sure about them spreading onto Gogarth but painted wall has seen so much attention and traffic this year since the ‘re pegging’ cough.

These routes may have gone unclimbed for years. Probably had 30 ascents between the two ‘sporty’ E7’s. Both excellent.

Thats my thoughts anyway. I had a great day climbing them both, something i wouldnt have done if they still had rotting pegs in them.

mrjonathanr

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I suspect a lot of poorly protected routes which would get much more attention if they were bolted.

Adam Lincoln

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I suspect a lot of poorly protected routes which would get much more attention if they were bolted.

Thats the thing though. Its the rotten pegs that make it poorly protected. On the FA it wasnt poorly protected.

I can see both sides of argument here, all i am saying is more people have enjoyed these routes in last year than did in 20 years.

Bonjoy

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 I propose we call these things pinos, I.e pegs in name only. :)

DAVETHOMAS90

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Bonjoy, what happened to the gear on Toploader at Millstone?
Weren't some of those pegs drilled?

Separately, I'm not comfortable with the overly simple argument of justifying everything on the basis of popularity etc. We'll be leaving Europe next. Imagine what a mess that'd leave us in.

How many routes are there that might be kind of fun as a clip up, but I'd probably be less likely to do without pre-drilled gear?

Are we trying to "produce" routes, or in some way record ascents?

Consumed or experienced? I appreciate that's a slightly contrived distinction, but I think it's one we're all familiar with.

Use the same set of holds 50+ times, and we're inclined to assume the former, but I think that's a mistake, with trad, anyway.

Bonjoy

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Bonjoy, what happened to the gear on Toploader at Millstone?
Weren't some of those pegs drilled?

I don't know. I hadn't heard that rumour till now.

SamT

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Bonjoy, what happened to the gear on Toploader at Millstone?
Weren't some of those pegs drilled?

I don't know. I hadn't heard that rumour till now.

Really?!? - I thought that was a really well aired rumour.  :worms:

I've never really voiced this to anyone other than a few people down the pub, and I'm not slinging muck as I dont really care that much either way, it's in the dim distant past now.

All I can say are two things I know to be fact. 

a:  - Jon Wilson had abbed, closely inspected and top roped that line not too long before it was done.  I recall him saying something along the lines of "I never found any peg placements"

b: - I was in the same bay some time after and found a rock with lots of small ~6mm holes drilled in it.  It was in the days of 24v NiCd batteries and it was standard practice to completely drain your battery once you'd finished using it by drilling more holes prior to recharging it, as it maintained the life of the batteries.  Never put two and two together until a few years later and heard about the rumour that the pegs were drilled.   Why would someone have had a drill in that bay?!?

Just saying.


 

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