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Topic split: Stealth bolts on Anglesey (Read 11918 times)

petejh

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Topic split: Stealth bolts on Anglesey
October 01, 2021, 09:31:18 am
I climbed on painted wall this week, we tried Easel E linked into Painted Groove. I can't comment on Prisoners (which I think doesn't have any resin bolts on it), but the other routes on painted wall aren't trad. Unless trad counts as clipping 9 stainless resin bolts in 20 metres and not placing a single piece of gear. It climbs well enough. But it's a very strange thing that's gone on on that wall.. basically people have created a nice south-facing beachside sport crag at Rhoscolyn, without lower-offs and with a chossy finish. And then called it trad climbing. It's bizarre.

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#1 Re: Topic split: Stealth bolts on Anglesey
October 01, 2021, 09:44:16 am
I climbed on painted wall this week, we tried Easel E linked into Painted Groove. I can't comment on Prisoners (which I think doesn't have any resin bolts on it), but the other routes on painted wall aren't trad. Unless trad counts as clipping 9 stainless resin bolts in 20 metres and not placing a single piece of gear. It climbs well enough. But it's a very strange thing that's gone on on that wall.. basically people have created a nice south-facing beachside sport crag at Rhoscolyn, without lower-offs and with a chossy finish. And then called it trad climbing. It's bizarre.

 :blink: sounds, erm, weird.

remus

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#2 Re: Topic split: Stealth bolts on Anglesey
October 01, 2021, 09:59:16 am
Discussed on UKC at the time https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/rock_talk/bolts_now_ok_at_gogarth-727165

If I understand correctly, they're not new bolts per se but old pegs that have been replaced with new stainless kit that's been resined in place (so effectively as safe as a bolt).

petejh

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#3 Re: Topic split: Stealth bolts on Anglesey
October 01, 2021, 10:12:20 am
Discussed on UKC at the time https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/rock_talk/bolts_now_ok_at_gogarth-727165

If I understand correctly, they're not new bolts per se but old pegs that have been replaced with new stainless kit that's been resined in place (so effectively as safe as a bolt).

They're bolts. A square-section, notched, single-leg glue-in bolt designed to look like a peg. Sometimes painted black or brown, but more often left original.

If you want you could call them sneaky bolts, because they're bolts designed to look like pegs.  But they're most definitely bolts. I know the history of their design and I had a load of the same bolts here at home a few years ago. They were originally placed on Pen Trwyn on trad routes which relied on a crucial peg for their grade. The old pegs on those routes were replaced with these bolts-disguised-as-pegs. The thinking at the time being so as not to upset traditional mindsets by putting in an 'obvious' bolt in place of the peg.

Since then, it seems the disguised bolts have grown legs and gone on their travels to Forwyn, Gogarth, and now it seems a whole crag has been equipped with them at Rhoscoyln to create a sport-crag in disguise.

I find the ethics of it bizarre. What bothers me most is that it's just dishonest. Call the equipment what it is.

The climb we tried was quite good fun but a bit contrived. A 1 or 2 star 8a if it was in the peak.

Fiend

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#4 Re: Topic split: Stealth bolts on Anglesey
October 01, 2021, 07:44:58 pm
Discussed on UKC at the time https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/rock_talk/bolts_now_ok_at_gogarth-727165

If I understand correctly, they're not new bolts per se but old pegs that have been replaced with new stainless kit that's been resined in place (so effectively as safe as a bolt).

They're bolts. A square-section, notched, single-leg glue-in bolt designed to look like a peg. Sometimes painted black or brown, but more often left original.

If you want you could call them sneaky bolts, because they're bolts designed to look like pegs.  But they're most definitely bolts. I know the history of their design and I had a load of the same bolts here at home a few years ago. They were originally placed on Pen Trwyn on trad routes which relied on a crucial peg for their grade. The old pegs on those routes were replaced with these bolts-disguised-as-pegs. The thinking at the time being so as not to upset traditional mindsets by putting in an 'obvious' bolt in place of the peg.

Since then, it seems the disguised bolts have grown legs and gone on their travels to Forwyn, Gogarth, and now it seems a whole crag has been equipped with them at Rhoscoyln to create a sport-crag in disguise.

I find the ethics of it bizarre. What bothers me most is that it's just dishonest. Call the equipment what it is.

The climb we tried was quite good fun but a bit contrived. A 1 or 2 star 8a if it was in the peak.

Fantastic  :worms: there!

Isn't it a key aspect whether these eco-pegs ahem retro-bolts are hammered into approximately the same slot / seam / crack as the peg they're supposed to replace (effectively a cemented peg) or have holes drilled out especially for them where a suitable placement never actually existed (effectively not a peg in the way pegs have always been used)?? Or indeed the grey area where the rotting stumps of original pegs are drilled out to allow space for them??  :devangel:

P.S. I clipped some at Clogwyn Yr Adar, a couple were cemented (not all!) but they all seemed to be in naturally occurring seams / slots that litter the crag, and hopefully were in very similar places to the old pegs they presumably replaced...

Johnny Brown

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#5 Re: Topic split: Stealth bolts on Anglesey
October 01, 2021, 08:56:17 pm
As Pete days, they are a single square section leg bolt. No taper, so you couldn’t hammer them in like a peg. They have to go in a drilled hole. On The Stand belay two are glued in whereas the third has been left rattly presumably to give you some sort of trad experience.

Fiend

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#6 Re: Topic split: Stealth bolts on Anglesey
October 01, 2021, 09:03:10 pm
Ah. Well. I see. That's quite a thing then!

Tony S

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#7 Re: Topic split: Stealth bolts on Anglesey
October 01, 2021, 09:22:38 pm
Please by all means thread split this.

They're bolts. A square-section, notched, single-leg glue-in bolt designed to look like a peg. Sometimes painted black or brown, but more often left original.

They're fixed gear. What people mean by peg/piton and, especially, bolt are pretty ill-defined. "Bolt" presumably originates from mechanical expansion anchors, to which a bolt (blunt metal screw-like object used with a nut) was integral. "Peg", arguably, better defines "bonded (epoxy resin) anchors" compared to "bolt".

In free climbing though, we basically mean "drilled" Vs "hammered", I suppose. (What a weird hobby we all have.)

Quote from: petejh
If you want you could call them sneaky bolts, because they're bolts designed to look like pegs.
They were mainly designed to last (in-situ) a long time in fairly corrosive environments. As such, manufactured from stainless steel, there are limits to how they can be placed. So they almost always have to be placed with the aid of a drill. You can't, sensibly, hammer stainless steel into irregular placements and as such it's difficult to secure them without a bonding agent.

Quote from: petejh
Since then, it seems the disguised bolts have grown legs and gone on their travels to Forwyn, Gogarth, and now it seems a whole crag has been equipped with them at Rhoscoyln to create a sport-crag in disguise.
It's hyperbole (what, again?!) to say you place no leader-placed protection at that Rhoscolyn crag.

Is it the same person placing the fixed gear at all those crag you mention?

Quote from: petejh
A 1 or 2 star 8a if it was in the peak.
Surely the most damning sentence in your post! Faint praise indeed!

Fiend

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#8 Re: Topic split: Stealth bolts on Anglesey
October 01, 2021, 09:24:11 pm
Please by all means thread split this.
And please called it "Retro-bolting Gogarth" too, to start things off on a good footing   ;D :2thumbsup:

Tony S

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#9 Re: Topic split: Stealth bolts on Anglesey
October 01, 2021, 09:26:50 pm
Please by all means thread split this.
And please called it "Retro-bolting Gogarth" too, to start things off on a good footing   ;D :2thumbsup:

Maybe just split and delete...

abarro81

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#10 Topic split - stealth bolts on Anglesey
October 01, 2021, 09:36:03 pm
I'm gonna put some of these "pegs" in my next Kilnsey proj and get me an E12! probably better than the 10mm expansions I was gonna use anyway...

Sounds fucking whack to me (no pun intended). Gibson or whoever it was who bolted Pembroke must be pissed knowing you're allowed to bolt British trad seacliff crags now you just need to paint the bolt brown and call it a drilled, glued, stainless steel peg...

Tony S

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Sounds...

And this is the problem. Don't believe everything you read Barro.

What's actually been happening, in the vast majority of placements, is the clearance and replacement of defunct pegs or other unusual (eg hammered) fixed (or missing) gear.

Quote from: abarro81
... f#cking whack to me ...
Bear in mind our entire "sport" is entirely arbitrary...

petejh

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They're bolts. A square-section, notched, single-leg glue-in bolt designed to look like a peg. Sometimes painted black or brown, but more often left original.

They're fixed gear. What people mean by peg/piton and, especially, bolt are pretty ill-defined. "Bolt" presumably originates from mechanical expansion anchors, to which a bolt (blunt metal screw-like object used with a nut) was integral. "Peg", arguably, better defines "bonded (epoxy resin) anchors" compared to "bolt".

In free climbing though, we basically mean "drilled" Vs "hammered", I suppose. (What a weird hobby we all have.)

Quote from: petejh
If you want you could call them sneaky bolts, because they're bolts designed to look like pegs.
They were mainly designed to last (in-situ) a long time in fairly corrosive environments. As such, manufactured from stainless steel, there are limits to how they can be placed. So they almost always have to be placed with the aid of a drill. You can't, sensibly, hammer stainless steel into irregular placements and as such it's difficult to secure them without a bonding agent.

Quote from: petejh
Since then, it seems the disguised bolts have grown legs and gone on their travels to Forwyn, Gogarth, and now it seems a whole crag has been equipped with them at Rhoscoyln to create a sport-crag in disguise.
It's hyperbole (what, again?!) to say you place no leader-placed protection at that Rhoscolyn crag.

Is it the same person placing the fixed gear at all those crag you mention?

Quote from: petejh
A 1 or 2 star 8a if it was in the peak.
Surely the most damning sentence in your post! Faint praise indeed!


I've had a very close association with the original manufacture of these glue-in anchors, and with the placement of them at Gogarth, among other places. I also have a bunch of these 'peg' bolts in my garage, painted black by the designer to make them look more like a mild steel peg found on typical UK trad. For clarity, I didn't place the ones on the Strand but I was there watching when they were placed. Nor have I placed any of the others that are on Gogarth, Rhoscolyn or Craig y Forwyn. I've been privy to knowledge of plenty of the placements, and how they were placed using the drill.

The bolts need to be drilled for the majority of placement because they were designed to be drilled and glued, not hammered. They are square section of approx 10mm diameter, and notched to lock in to the resin bond. As you say, the 316 stainless isn't designed to be hammered into cracks and hammering may damage the integrity. Now, that doesn't mean every one of these bolt-pegs *has* been drilled. Sure you can wiggle them into a suitably large enough placement and glue it in. It's impossible for an outsider who didn't place them to know which aren't drilled. And because they're 'sneaky' and made to look like pegs they're drilled into existing cracks so it looks like a peg placement (like that's a good thing...). And really.. does it matter whether it was placed with a hammer or with a hammer drill? That's open to debate.

I personally always felt uneasy about the idea of a deceptive bolt made to look like a peg because my personal ethics are that trad should strive to be getting rid of fixed steel placements not adding them, especially on sea cliffs. I despair at first ascensionists - or repeat ascents... - adding pegs to their routes, and consider it a poor fudge. Even in winter I've always strayed away from leaving anything fixed in any FAs I've been involved with. Sometimes the ethic fails.

Over the intervening years since those first disguised bolts were placed on Gogarth I've watched the resulting slow motion fall-out with interest as I always knew how controversial these things would eventually end up being if they spread.

The Rhoscolyn route we had a go on was 8 or 9 peg placements - 7 of them glued in stainless bolts, 2 normal hammered-in pegs, and no requirement to place your own leader-placed gear until right at the very top on easy ground just to top out. That's not hyperbole, that's what we experienced three days ago. Easel-EE - Painted Groove was like that. Surreal Appeal to its left may have a couple less or the same.. we didn't climb it.
That isn't trad climbing by my understanding of the activity. Hey, it's fun and they climb... 'ok'.. That's all, just ok because it felt like contrived climbing on a poorly thought out sport crag.

Lets just be honest about what we're doing, that's my main gripe with it. I don't understand why anyone would want to pretend that placing more pegs on sea cliffs is a good thing. To my simple mind: if fixed gear is deemed essential to climb a route then make it obviously fit for purpose, don't lie about what it is that's been placed, and don't try to do something that makes outsiders think they're clipping pegs in some kind of throwback to the 'golden days', which was just an unfortunate short-sighted ethical choice made back then for the attainment of a coveted first ascent, that ultimately left lots of routes and cliffs littered in unusable rusting steelwork.


Edited.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2021, 11:36:47 pm by petejh »

Tony S

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*I* think the manufacture from stainless steel is relevant and replacement vs new additions also important.

I think the "sneaky" thing is overdone to some extent.

Beyond that, I don't think we disagree greatly.


My original question was a genuine:
Was it the same protagonist placing the fixed gear on Painted Walls as elsewhere?
« Last Edit: October 01, 2021, 11:51:37 pm by Tony S »

petejh

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Ah OK apols I misunderstood that part of your post then. Have edited my post.

I don't know who re-geared painted walls. Doubt it was the original person (as elsewhere).

Tony S

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All good. I'm aware my writing can come across as curt - it's not usually meant to. Also, I should have been clearer that my comment to Barrows was not a ref to your remarks but a nod to the UKC sh1t show thread.

I thought Paint Wall sounded different style to the original protagonist. Interesting. Hmm.

EDIT: removed deleted quote from earlier post and associated remarks (essentially that my original post was directed at the general readership)
« Last Edit: October 02, 2021, 12:07:23 am by Tony S »

abarro81

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Pete seems to know what he's on about Tony, and you'll struggle to convince me that a drilled glued stainless 10mm peg isn't a bolt... so I remain surprised that people are okay with bolting Gogarth, even if only to replace pegs.. (I don't have a particular objection, if that's what the N Wales trad community wants to do, maybe it'll make me more keen to "trad" climb again!)

ali k

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Agree entirely with Pete. If it’s a drilled hole with a glued in bit of metal then it’s a bolt.

And if it’s a bit of metal smashed into a crack or something a la traditional pegs then trad should be moving away from that, particularly on sea cliffs, regardless of what metal is used.

Kingy

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I agree. For what its worth here is a video showing a lost arrow peg being hammered into a crack by Yosemite legend Doug Robinson (at 56:28) (the rest of the video is good too if you have time). Rising ringing sound as its hammered home, now that's a peg!






Fultonius

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Agree entirely with Pete. If it’s a drilled hole with a glued in bit of metal then it’s a bolt.

And if it’s a bit of metal smashed into a crack or something a la traditional pegs then trad should be moving away from that, particularly on sea cliffs, regardless of what metal is used.

I guess the fudge of using these stainless pegs kicks the hard decision into the long grass, i.e. deciding between:

1. Leaving it as an unprotected chop route naebody is every going to do (fine, there's plenty of other rock).
2. Actively choosing to have a weird fudge muddle ground of what is essentially a poor (from Pete's account, I've not been) trad-flavour contrived "anti-sport" route.
3. Just bolting it properly with lower-offs and bolts in sensible locations; then accepting that if we don't want manky fixed gear on trad sea cliffs, we either need to accept it is actually better as a sport route, or...see 1 & 2 above...


Fiend

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Rising ringing sound as its hammered home, now that's a peg!


Referencing his karabiner check at 59:35 for the nice tight sound....



....gotta love pegs on sea-cliffs.

Good topic, good to get these things out in the open.

Leaving aside the disintegrating rot of pegs on sea-cliffs for now, my take is that normal pegs are not sport climb protection, they are fixed trad protection (like threads). The key aspect for me is that normal pegs can only be placed in an existing weakness in the rock, and this has both a conceptual effect i.e. the peg is "accepting what the rock offers" (just like trad gear), and a practical effect for the climber i.e. the pegs can only be placed in certain, limited areas, and not always where one would like for perfect safety / comfort (just like trad gear). This is an aspect I personally like about pegs and where pegs are reasonable quality and pretty "crucial" i.e. little to no trad gear exists nearby, I like them overall.

If this aspect is overridden by drilling a specific, previously non-existent placement, then....it's a completely different. A bolt, say. And that - if it's in a bolt-free area - is an issue well worth investigating, discussing, chopping, etc etc....


Further, my take on peg replacement is that it should be on a case-by-case basis, with a general plan like:

1. If it's good quality and likely to remain so, leave it.
2. If it's poor and there's clear and reasonable trad gear nearby, remove it.
3. If it's originally good, now poor, fairly crucial, and on a limestone crag, consider replacing it with a single good bolt.
4. If it's originally good, now poor, fairly crucial, in a traditional bolt-free area, and could be replaced like for like with a peg likely to remain good, replace it like for like.
5. If it's originally good, now poor, fairly crucial, in a traditional bolt-free area, and could only be replaced by a drilled placement, refer it to a crack committee of PeteJH and TonyS for further investigation.

TL, DR: remove if not needed, like for like if possible, otherwise argue the toss on the internet (or just retro-bolt by stealth and hope you get away with it  ::) ::) ::) )



BTW Pete, your two long edited but similar posts are now somewhat confusing back to back! Maybe a moderator could merge the two??

andy moles

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I feel like the semantics of whether these are 'bolts' or 'pegs' is an unhelpful distraction.

They are what they are, which is effectively a slightly different thing in different cases:

Durable fixed protection that may or may not be drilled*, may or may not be resined*, and may or may not replace a previously existing piece of fixed protection.

I'm all for them if they replace what was formerly a good peg in a route which would be significantly compromised by the absence of something in that place - i.e. a route like Barbarossa, which changes from an excellent E6 to a (for most) unreasonably bold E7 without that single piece. Old rusty pegs are bullshit - if there's going to be a piece of fixed protection, it might as well be good, or at least be such that someone who didn't place it can make as informed a judgement about it as the person that did (which is usually the case for threads).

Clearly people will differ on where to draw the line on how 'necessary' fixed protection is for maintaining the character of a given route, or whether that character is worth maintaining. It seems impossible that there will ever be an established consensus on this, or a set of guidelines that don't sprout a thousand exceptions.

Out of interest, in the case of the Rhoscolyn routes, do these boltpegbolts replace existing pegs?
And is this in any way animated by people promoting big-number trad ascents that are actually quasi-sport?


*In most cases, by the sound of it, the former.

petejh

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Fiend, I thought I was editing my original post to make it read a bit less reactive to my perceived criticism from Tony, but it looks like I made a repeat post instead. I've asked Si (a.n.other admin?) to remove the first post.

On your use of that popular old chesnut of 'accepting what the rock offers'. I'd counter that pegs don't accept what the rock offers but rather they batter the rock into submission until it accepts what the peg is offering! Multiple hammer blows does not imply acceptance on behalf of the receiver!

Further to the case for pegs not being 'trad gear', you don't trad climb with a hammer*. You do carry slings for threads.


*Unless you're making first ascents in the Canadian Rockies in which case a hammer is more used part of the trad rack than the wires or cams.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2021, 10:06:09 am by petejh »

Tony S

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I clarified previously (though subsequently made less prominent, as Pete and I both edited our messages after better understanding one another), my original post was not directed towards Pete who, I am well aware, knows the history and development. It was, rather, providing fuller information about these pieces of fixed gear to the wider readership than was present in the original post.

*I* don't really make a great distinction between a peg and a bolt. My criteria are more*: (1) Accepted sport crags / sport sectors of crags Vs trad crags /sectors; (2) replacement of (pre-)existing fixed gear Vs new placements/routes.
* As ever, it's not that simple.

If we previously tolerated the placement of mild steel pegs in 'natural' placements then I don't get excited when they're replaced with a longterm solution which isn't immediately removed simply "because it's a bolt". Obviously, it is more complicated when there has been an evolution of ascents (ascents as the peg has rotted and then broken); that is, when/who decides if a piece of fixed gear is "crucial".

I don't know the area so well but it's not just N Wales, Avon has mixed peg/bolt/trad routes.

In my original post I was trying to highlight that "bolt", to climbers, is a particularly emotive term when we really just mean drilled Vs hammered - which I find amusing.

Otherwise, basically what Andy and Pete said.

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Just my 0:02. The starting seam / crack / slot / pocket does exist, it's not just blank rock, any deformation comes from the bit of inserted gear itself. The demonstration in the video Kingy linked sums it up for me, hammering into that wee seam is the true romance of pegs  :smirk:

No it's not purely logical but it makes sense to me. Then again what aspects of these ethical debates are purely logical?!

 

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