[moose]

My fear with Inoue is that to get any more recognition, he has to fight at weights where he gets "out-bigged" by far less talented boxers.  Admittedly, that hasn't mattered yet, and he has a solid frame so could possibly pack on weight without a loss of speed, but I remember feeling Roman Gonzalez and Loma were unbeatable...

[User deactivated.]

Id like to see him clean out 122, move to 126 and become undisputed again, with potentially a tactical move later in his career to pick up a strap at 130. 6 divisions is pretty outrageous! It puts into perspective what Pacquiao did, although Pac began fighting professionally as a malnourished teenager, so we're not comparing apples with apples.

Any predictions for Spence vs Crawford?

[moose]

3-4 years ago I'd have said Spence vs Crawford was the best possible fight to be made in boxing. Now, it feels like an effort to be excited.  I haven't really followed their fights since Spence's car crash and all the promotional problems at the time.

Based my on out-of-date knowledge, I reckon Spence is naturally bigger and has a physical advantage, but Crawford is more intelligent and spiteful - he just seems to like causing pain.   So, I'm going for Crawford on points - whittling away Spence for a possibly controversial points victory (maybe one of those where it's a matter of do you prefer activity or efficiency).

[spidermonkey09]

Usyk obviously the better boxer etc etc, but... Was that a low shot from Dubois or not...?

[User deactivated.]

I don't understand all the hysteria. Actually I do - boxing loves controversy.

Under the Queensbury Rules, the shot was a low blow. Whether it hit him in the testicles is beside the point. Shots to the bladder, pelvic region, thigh, etc are all illegal. Not a centimeter of glove was above the waistband on the skin. The highest area of the glove (thumb region) was below the waistband and therefore below the bellybutton. Considering the size of a 10oz glove on a heavyweight, the pinky side of the glove would have been perhaps 8 inches lower?

So after getting the facts out of the way, we can address all the points around it.

Did it hit him in the balls? Only Usyk knows that, but he immediately seemed to react as though it did, possibly before he would have had chance to realise he was hurt from a body shot and then fake a lowblow?

Would he have beaten the count if it wasn't ruled a lowblow? It didn't look like it, but Usyk is a true warrior and would never quit like Dubois did later in the fight so I wouldn't count him out. If he did make it up he has vastly better movement than anyone else in the division and it's possible he could have danced for a round or 2 until recovered.

After the shot, Usyk changed his usual style and seemed to be fighting with spite as though to get revenge. He hasn't really put it on someone like that since he was fighting men his own size back at cruiserweight.

Dubois did better than AJ? He fought more aggressively but I disagree. AJ lost an 8-4 decision. Dubois lost every round in my card (1 could have gone either way) got knocked down in 2 rounds and quit on his knee...

Exciting fight nonetheless.

[spidermonkey09]

Surely if it was low he should have been docked a point ? Don't really understand how it can be a bob each way.

Guess the definition of 'below the belt' is interesting, cause it implies that 'the belt' is ok and he got him flush on the waistband. Frampton seems pretty clear that he thought it was legal, is he just touting for clickbait?

[User deactivated.]

https://www.foxsports.com.au/pmd/images/2023/08/27/865220_640x360_large_20230827102250.jpg

Tracing the waistband of his shorts, at least half of the glove is below it. All of the lettering on the glove is below the waistband and none of the glove is above the waistband. I wouldn't say Frampton was just looking for click bait, but he was invested in the fight, the British fighter, and his call on the shot, which he made before seeing the replay as far as I could tell. Emotions during a live fight are high and could have had an impact.

Regarding a point deduction, it didn't look intentional to me, so perhaps that figured into the referees judgement? Also, Dubois wasn't winning that fight on points by hook or by crook, so it wouldn't have been important.

Either way, it's unlucky for Dubois. They are petitioning for the decision to be overturned but this is unlikely based on precedence. Based on Usyk winning almost every minute of the fight and getting the stoppage I can't see Dubois getting the win in a rematch. With another ref on another night he might have got lucky but that's sport. The only potential blemish in Usyks career so far.

[Aussiegav]

Usyk won hands down. Technically it was a low blow. Bearing in mind, the referee had a split second to call it, it was a good call, a very difficult and big call.
Dubois wasted the opportunity by not going after Usyk for the rest of the round and then ultimately quit.

I think Usyk beats all the top heavyweights. Too smart and too technical. It was good to see him show a bit of fire too. Im sure he’ll work out how to get past Fury. Fury has no knockout power.

[User deactivated.]

It's interesting to see how the 'low blow controversy' has developed over the last few days.

Ex pro fighters seem to be split 50/50 on whether they think it was a genuine shot or a low blow; however, any pundit who has taken time to draw lines on the photograph of the shot and quote the actual rules clearly demonstrates it is unambiguously a low blow. The shot was below the naval, case closed.

The other day I said that Frampton probably wasn't looking for clickbait but perhaps just got the initial call wrong then doubled down. I might have changed my mind on that. On the basis that around half the pro fighters who have given an opinion have gotten it wrong, I think most of them really must be doing it for attention, or they have an agenda (somehow relating it to their own fights/careers). The former happens all the time. David Haye and Johnny Nelson often make wild statements to get headlines, and fighters are notorious for having brittle egos, so the latter would not surprise me either.

[User deactivated.]

Any boxing fans will probably have noticed the algorithm pushing this 23rd December Saudi card down their throats as the best card of all time (with an abundance of all hail "his excellency" Turki Alalshikh bootlicking comments from everyone involved).

I'd say it's a good card, but not as great as advertised. There's a lot of big names not fighting each other and it's mostly filled with mismatches. The two co-main events are ok, but it's very disappointing to see AJ and Wilder on the same card not fighting each other. My review

AJ vs Wallin - Wallin isn't a bad fighter, but AJ beat him twice in the amateurs and is simply better. Wallin is a tough, rangy, awkward southpaw, so from the perspective that fans are desperate to see the 'old AJ' this is likely to further advance AJ's reputation as a safety first fighter as he wins a UD.

Wilder vs Parker - This is probably the best fight on the card. I'm going against the grain here and picking Parker. Wilder is 38 year old fighter who relies on his attributes, has no fundamentals, and has fought one round in two years. As mediocre as Parker can be, Wilder has arguably never beaten a better fighter in his protected career.

Bivol vs Arthur - Arthur has a decent win over Yarde (before losing the rematch), but Bivol is the best fighter on the card and will win easily.

Opetaia vs Zorro - A formality for Opetaia

Makhmudov vs Kabayel - A formality for Makhmudov

Hrgovic vs DeMori - Give me a break. This is the same Mark DeMori that a washed up David Haye knocked out 8 years ago.

Sanchez vs Fa - A formality for Sanchez

Dubois vs Miller - the 2nd best fight on the card. Juiced up Miller is durable, has a high work rate, and will stick it on the mentally fragile yet technically much better and more powerful Dubois. This is a good 50-50 fight.

This is the card it should have been:

AJ vs Wilder
Hrgovic vs Makhmudov
Sanchez vs Parker
Dubois vs Miller

[Wellsy]

I'm definitely watching for Wilder vs Parker. I don't think it'd really be an upset if Parker won, but it certainly would get reported as one.

[tim palmer]

I think it seems extremely improbable that parker will be able to avoid getting knocked out by wilder seeing as he wasn't able to illude Joe joyce of all people.

I could see Joshua losing, wallin is fundamentally sound and timed fury, don't think the amateur results mean anything this far down the line.  But it will probably be a turgid and dodgy points decision for AJ.  I would like wallin to win really.

The rest is sports washing one sided rubbish, the Miller fight at least has a freakshow element.

[moose]

I wouldn't be surprised if the bill is rearranged when Miller inevitably tests positive for PEDs.

[User deactivated.]

I think it seems extremely improbable that parker will be able to avoid getting knocked out by wilder seeing as he wasn't able to illude Joe joyce of all people.

I could see Joshua losing, wallin is fundamentally sound and timed fury, don't think the amateur results mean anything this far down the line.  But it will probably be a turgid and dodgy points decision for AJ.  I would like wallin to win really.

The rest is sports washing one sided rubbish, the Miller fight at least has a freakshow element.

Re Wilder vs Parker: you're right, I've gone back on this. I'd focused too much on Wilder's abysmal resume and not taken into account Parker's, which is almost as bad. Wilder has only ever beaten one ranked opponent (going by The Ring rankings, not the corrupt alphabet title organisations) and that was a past it Ortiz, who might have actually won that fight if the doctor didn't step in to give Wilder a 30 second break while out on his feet. Parker has beaten better opponents, but his best win came 7 years ago against Ruiz, and that could have gone either way. Both are unproven at the top level, but Wilder has looked far more devastating against lower opposition.

I don't really like AJ or Wallin, but I think AJ does everything better than him except for confidence. Everyone underrates Joshua now because he's not the force he once was, but he's still been easily outboxing everyone not named Usyk. I see this being a wide UD or late stoppage.

And now for the fight that matters: Usyk split decision win against Fury

[tim palmer]

Re Wilder vs Parker: you're right, I've gone back on this. I'd focused too much on Wilder's abysmal resume and not taken into account Parker's, which is almost as bad.

Wilder did fight fury 3 times and was at least competitive once so I think he is far more proven than AJ.

Everyone underrates Joshua now because he's not the force he once was, but he's still been easily outboxing everyone not named Usyk.

And an in shape Andy ruiz who beat him up badly.   AJ has been beaten by lesser opposition than Wilder.

[moose]

I like the exchange the boxing writer, Brin Jonathan Butler, had with his former trainer before the first Fury fight:

Wilder is 40-0 as a pro with 39 knockouts, but he came to the sport late. How do his skills compare with Breland’s when he was a prodigiously gifted amateur boxer?

Breland’s eyes follow Wilder pacing around the gym. He folds his thin arms across his chest and absent mindedly leans back so you can appreciate how freakish a task it must have been to fight a man at 147 pounds who stands at 6 feet, 2½ inches. Gradually, a mischievous grin curls Breland’s lips.

“He’s at about where I was at 11.”

“11?”

“11 or 12,” he concedes, turning it over some more. “But you gotta remember, he’s a heavyweight in today’s era. And you seen how he can punch. If you can bang? Hell, that’s enough now. And you seen what his right hand can do. He can bang.”

https://andscape.com/features/can-deontay-wilder-tyson-fury-restore-the-glory-days-of-heavyweight-boxing-in-the-us/

Wilder he can bang... that's pretty much all he can do - but it's usually enough.

[tim palmer]

Yes, BJB is a great writer and pundit.

[User deactivated.]

His right hand is usually enough against stiffs!

I don't know who wins between AJ and Wilder and I don't care that much anymore; it's no longer a meaningful fight, but gun to my head I'd go with the more proven and younger AJ.

AJ's top 5 wins are 40 year old Wlad, unbeaten Whyte, Ruiz, unbeaten Parker, and nearly 40 year old Povetkin. Hardly a murderers row, but it's somehow still a lot better than Wilder's top 5 wins. After Ortiz, there's a very long list of journeymen and I can't pick another 4 good fighters. Both have shaky whiskers and more than enough power to knock each other out. AJ's has good fundamentals and power in both hands, but he struggles to pull the trigger. Wilder is full of confidence, but he can't box and seems to have poor stamina these days. I'd probably pick Hrgovic to beat both of them now and he's no world beater either.

Thank god we have talents like Inoue in the lighter divisions. Usyk is still great too despite getting old.

 

[Wellsy]

Yeah for me Wilder's resume is weak. Ortiz is fair, but other than that? And he has barely fought of late, prior to Helenius he was just losing to Fury.

[spidermonkey09]

That loss for Wilder was years in the making. He was lucky it didn't happen against Ortiz. Does that make Fury's legacy look even less impressive?

[User deactivated.]

Agreed, Fury's reputation/CV took quite a hit! Fury's reputation since his comeback has largely been based on circular reasoning: he beat Wilder, so Wilder must be good and therefore Fury is great. I think that circular logic just came a bit unstuck.

Firstly, Wilder got shut out by the first proven opponent he's faced in Parker. Ortiz was never really proven and was rated via similar circular reasoning having given Wilder a tough fight, which he might actually have won without the doctor shenanigans. Second, Fury went life and death with Wallin, who just got utterly destroyed by Joshua. On the flip side, Usyk's CV just received a boost via Joshua and Dubois both looking great.

I don't fully buy into the narrative I've just laid out; styles make fights and I think there's an aspect of Joshua and Parker finally just putting in long-overdue good performances. But make no mistake, it's not looking good for Fury, especially after struggling with an MMA fighter. However, Fury's most underrated recent win is Whyte. That was a demolition job against a worthy mandatory.

I thought Usyk would become the man at heavyweight before he'd even unified the cruiserweight division and I'm picking him to beat Fury, but as an Usyk fanboy I'm probably not the best person to listen to. If Fury and Usyk do a rematch, it's likely that the IBF will strip the winner as the mandatory is long overdue. That means it will probably be Hrgovic Vs Joshua for the paper title. Good fight but it would be silly to consider the winner a real champion.

Dubois Vs Parker would be a good fight, but probably makes little sense for either fighter on the risk / reward spectrum unless the Saudi's are going to pay well for it.

[Nibile]

I didn't particularly enjoy Joshua's performance: he did the job but was static and flat footed as usual. Wallin basically didn't throw anything with bad intentios and didn't belong in that ring. Good performance but against a mediocre (for world level arenas) fighter.
Bivol was as usual a machine.
Wilder put up a terrible show during and after the fight, very good match from Parker and another of many confirmations that Wilder has been hyped beyond measure. The "I want a body on my record" is still unforgivable.
I really liked Dubois's performance against an unpleasant trash talker, banned numerous times for PEDs. Glad for Dubois, although he seems to still lack that killing instinct for the category. He ate a few punches with no big fuss so props to him, he seems a really good guy.
And then there was the boxing day treat: Naoya Inoue.

[User deactivated.]

Yep. Inoue is the best fighter in the sport for my money.

[Nibile]

Well well well...

NSFW  :

I have to honestly say that I would have never thought that it could go this way. Joshua put up a monster performance, he looked attentive but not scared, and delivered in a fight that, had it gone differently, could have seriously damaged or even ended his career.
Hard to draw conclusions, it lasted too little, Ngannou isn't a boxer, he barely moved in the ring, Joshua again quite static, etc., but he is really back on track and - let's be honest - he saved boxing's reputation.
Anticlimatic.

[Moo]

Come on then, who’s your money on. On recent performances Usyk is probably the safe bet but you certainly can’t write off Fury.

I think Usyk takes it on points.