UKBouldering.com

Flailing on a narrow grip (Read 871 times)

James Malloch

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1123
  • Karma: +44/-1
Flailing on a narrow grip
September 21, 2021, 11:35:22 pm
I was trying a problem (elephantitus) yesterday and the last move was being matched on a decent sloper with hands touching.

First of all I was using bad beta and should have moved my foot first in retrospect, butÖ

I was cutting loose whilst matched on the lip of a steep roof so I needed to compose myself and then accurately put my toe on an edge.

Iíve found that I really struggle in this position and never really wondered why.

When in a close grip I feel a lot less stable and also feel like I have to have my arms bent a lot more than in a wider grip. I didnít feel like I could be accurate with my feet due to stability problems.

I know chest is engaged more when in a closer grip, but I wondered if anyone had any experience of addressing this weakness? Is it just likely that the chest is weaker? Or Iím just not used to the position? Or something else that Iím not aware of?

I didnít feel great on the sloper in full sun which didnít help, but itís definitely something Iíve been aware of In the past as well.

M1V0

Offline
  • *
  • regular
  • Posts: 70
  • Karma: +3/-0
#1 Re: Flailing on a narrow grip
September 22, 2021, 09:00:26 am
Matched positions typically mean a really narrow shoulder position, so you can't use muscles in the shoulder to stabilise yourself properly. Bringing your elbows out is an attempt to bring in some more of that shoulder stabiliser, I suspect.

James Malloch

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1123
  • Karma: +44/-1
#2 Re: Flailing on a narrow grip
September 22, 2021, 09:19:30 am
Matched positions typically mean a really narrow shoulder position, so you can't use muscles in the shoulder to stabilise yourself properly. Bringing your elbows out is an attempt to bring in some more of that shoulder stabiliser, I suspect.

That makes sense, thanks. Where does the main stability come from in such a position?

Is it more chest/core issue? If anyone has any tips on how to increase stability in this position it would be appreciated.

SA Chris

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 26832
  • Karma: +561/-10
    • http://groups.msn.com/ChrisClix
#3 Re: Flailing on a narrow grip
September 22, 2021, 09:42:53 am
narrow hand pull ups?

nai

Online
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 3987
  • Karma: +205/-1
  • In my dreams
#4 Re: Flailing on a narrow grip
September 22, 2021, 10:00:34 am
Matched positions typically mean a really narrow shoulder position, so you can't use muscles in the shoulder to stabilise yourself properly. Bringing your elbows out is an attempt to bring in some more of that shoulder stabiliser, I suspect.

That makes sense, thanks. Where does the main stability come from in such a position?

Is it more chest/core issue? If anyone has any tips on how to increase stability in this position it would be appreciated.

Engage your shoulders and pull from you mid back

ducko

Offline
  • ****
  • forum abuser
  • Posts: 735
  • Karma: +37/-3
#5 Re: Flailing on a narrow grip
September 22, 2021, 10:07:43 am
Is this the case with crimpers also? It could be that you may just be weaker on slopers, narrow pull ups wound help for sure and possibly doing wrist curls or pull ups on slopers to increase wrist strength

Liamhutch89

Offline
  • ***
  • obsessive maniac
  • Posts: 361
  • Karma: +19/-0
#6 Re: Flailing on a narrow grip
September 22, 2021, 10:29:16 am
If I'm envisaging the position properly it could be a lack of overhead mobility (almost certainly going to be poor if you don't train it as a climber).

Stand side on in front of a mirror and keeping a hollow core (abs engaged), raise your arms and see if you can get your arms vertical, forming a 180į angle with your body. If not then when you're hanging below the hold you're actually hanging out from it requiring more finger strength to hold on. It's easy to cheat this test by compensating with an arc in the back, but you won't be able to do this while climbing with your feet on and core engaged.

Additionally, narrow compression, particularly overhead is more front delt strength than chest. Ring flyes, are mostly useless here as at the top of the fly (in narrow compression) there is negligible force (basic newtonian mechanics). Overhead pressing movements will likely build more strength here.

M1V0

Offline
  • *
  • regular
  • Posts: 70
  • Karma: +3/-0
#7 Re: Flailing on a narrow grip
September 22, 2021, 10:57:51 am
Matched positions typically mean a really narrow shoulder position, so you can't use muscles in the shoulder to stabilise yourself properly. Bringing your elbows out is an attempt to bring in some more of that shoulder stabiliser, I suspect.

That makes sense, thanks. Where does the main stability come from in such a position?

Is it more chest/core issue? If anyone has any tips on how to increase stability in this position it would be appreciated.

Engage your shoulders and pull from you mid back

What Nai says. Depending on the angle of the climb (assuming steep enough), try and pull the shoulders back and down as if you were trying to make your shoulder blades touch behind you. That's a good way to engage the back.

Chest comes more into play for compression moves, so useful where your hands aren't side-by-side. Core can help in the cutting loose to slow it down more and becoming more controlled.

I imagine you could work on this by building up general tension and shoulder strength through presses. Maybe even a vague replication of the movement by doing low rows matching hands on a single ring?

abarro81

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 3594
  • Karma: +279/-23
#8 Re: Flailing on a narrow grip
September 22, 2021, 11:17:23 am
Pretty standard for people to be weaker when too narrow IMO, it stops you twisting into the hold and getting that feeling of engagement through the arm/shoulder. Some people are an exception to this, in my experience they're usually v strong on f3 drag. For most people if you campus f3 drag you'll get the same feeling of lack of engagement due to the change in wrist, elbow and shoulder position. Not sure how to fix it, but I'm not convinced it's via standard scapular-shug/shoulder-engagement type exercises that some seem to be implying, though I may be misinterpreting the posts (you can be v strong at shoulder engagements but still not like being narrow). Narrows rows sounds worth a punt for something to try...

Stu Littlefair

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1744
  • Karma: +268/-2
    • http://www.darkpeakimages.co.uk
#9 Re: Flailing on a narrow grip
September 22, 2021, 11:29:37 am
Alex might be onto something with his F3 observation.

When you're in a narrow position it tends to put more weight on one side of the hand. Whether this is the front half or the back half can depend on the hold orientation I think.

To some extent better shoulder mobility can mitigate this, so working on shoulder mobility will help, but also look at fingerboarding with front/back 2 or 3.

James Malloch

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1123
  • Karma: +44/-1
#10 Re: Flailing on a narrow grip
September 23, 2021, 07:47:34 am
narrow hand pull ups?

Never actually tried these until yesterday and Iím shit at them! Definitely something to start doingÖ

James Malloch

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1123
  • Karma: +44/-1
#11 Re: Flailing on a narrow grip
September 23, 2021, 07:54:00 am
If I'm envisaging the position properly it could be a lack of overhead mobility (almost certainly going to be poor if you don't train it as a climber).

Stand side on in front of a mirror and keeping a hollow core (abs engaged), raise your arms and see if you can get your arms vertical, forming a 180į angle with your body. If not then when you're hanging below the hold you're actually hanging out from it requiring more finger strength to hold on. It's easy to cheat this test by compensating with an arc in the back, but you won't be able to do this while climbing with your feet on and core engaged.

Additionally, narrow compression, particularly overhead is more front delt strength than chest. Ring flyes, are mostly useless here as at the top of the fly (in narrow compression) there is negligible force (basic newtonian mechanics). Overhead pressing movements will likely build more strength here.


Iíve tried that this morning and I can get to 180 degrees, but it does feel tight at the end of the range.

Iíve been going to some gym classes recently (only going to ones with OH press, bench or squat type exercises (all the ones I ignore) so hopefully thatís helping in some ways.

I donít use rings either but imagine Iíd be awful at fliesÖ

James Malloch

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1123
  • Karma: +44/-1
#12 Re: Flailing on a narrow grip
September 23, 2021, 09:57:13 am
Pretty standard for people to be weaker when too narrow IMO, it stops you twisting into the hold and getting that feeling of engagement through the arm/shoulder. Some people are an exception to this, in my experience they're usually v strong on f3 drag. For most people if you campus f3 drag you'll get the same feeling of lack of engagement due to the change in wrist, elbow and shoulder position. Not sure how to fix it, but I'm not convinced it's via standard scapular-shug/shoulder-engagement type exercises that some seem to be implying, though I may be misinterpreting the posts (you can be v strong at shoulder engagements but still not like being narrow). Narrows rows sounds worth a punt for something to try...

Thanks, Alex (+ Stu and M1V0). Thatís an interesting way to to look at it. Iíve always thought I was okay on narrow rows (I certainly used to be when I was going to the gym 10 years agoÖ) but no idea how how I would be these days.

As mentioned in another post, I have since discovered Iím absolutely shite at Close grip pull ups so thatís another obvious area to start with.

Iíll have a play with some front/back three drags. When you say campus in your post, I guess you mean just on rungs? Iíve some rungs on my board so Iíll test that out in my next session.

 

SimplePortal 2.3.7 © 2008-2021, SimplePortal