[petejh]

So. That's what a one-star E9 looks like, huh?

  Pretty much what I was thinking.

Perhaps someone extremely bold with low regard for the health of their ankles will come along and think it more logical to just go for it without all sky-hooks-and-downclimbing malarky. In the mindset of, if they fail on the crux they'd try to jump out to clear the belay ledge and taking a monstrous whipper most of the way back down Titan's Wall. E10 (8a)? And more 'pure'..
Franco?

[Franco]

I don't think it would be more pure like that. What Dave's done is the purest form of headpoint ascent I reckon and i don't think it detracts from the quality of the route. I actually think most really hard/dangerous headpoints in the future will involve down climbing. You're probably doing something wrong if you're fiddling in skyhooks on the way to committing to death 7a or whatever.

[petejh]

I meant working the route on toppy then just going for it on headpoint without the 8b skyhooks-downclimbing. Not onsighting.

I'd not be massively surprised if in the next 5-10 years someone does it on axes in winter after a look on a rope, though Titans Wall hardly ever gets rimed.

[ali k]

Hard to tell from the weird video angle but is there a danger of the belayer being taken out if he falls off? If so does Robbie get a few E points? (I didn’t watch all the vid so maybe I missed him chatting about this?)

[Franco]

Yeh, I mean down climbing doesn't affect the purity of ascent. We are woodlice slithering through these grand challenges by the grace of God, not trotting about on exhibition ponies performing some cute-to-look-at dressage.

[dunnyg]

Speak for yourself

[petejh]

The climbing scene has far more than it's fair share of show ponies!

[Bonjoy]

A cynic might conclude that many of the supposed rules are invented and policed by these guys =>  . Armchair pundits with no skin in the game.

[Kingy]

From a sport climber's perspective, would there be any worth in pinkpointing this on pre-placed gear? Seems like a reasonable compromise given that many may be turned off by the high faff factor and weirdness of the downclimbing ethic. At least you could get to enjoy the climbing, which looks great, if not in perfect safety, at least with a reasonable margin for those operating at that level.

Just a thought! I don't care if no E grade was merited and it would be better than toproping

[DAVETHOMAS90]

Re the down-climbing, seems that everyone has forgotten that even in sport climbing, the ethic used to be that you could have your rope pre-clipped to any gear you haven't weighted - and you could come back thereafter, with the higher bolts pre-clipped, if you've down-climbed from that point.

Arguments started when people used mats to jump onto from a higher point. Seems an odd thing to imagine now, as it only seems to be crag consensus that determines what is accepted re pre-clipped runners.

I think everyone's amusing arguments for leaving the gear in-situ make sense.
A major part of the art/struggle is making the ascent viable.
Yo-yo-ing used to be accepted more readily, before the practice of hanging/resting on your top gear to "have a look" became a too common form of cheating.

Redpointing became established as a way of rationalising an acceptable ascent. I like the way that - although very unlikely - Dave's ascent leaves something that could be improved upon.

I think it's that engagement with the cliff that we risk losing.

[andy moles]

From a sport climber's perspective, would there be any worth in pinkpointing this on pre-placed gear?

I don't care if no E grade was merited and it would be better than toproping

I think you've sort of answered your own question here, i.e. pinkpointing would obviously be easier than placing gear on lead, but harder than top-roping.

Hard to say regarding 'worth' - worth to you, or worth in the view of the wider community? Not that those are discrete, because unless you're impressively self-possessed the consensus view will affect your own. Wouldn't most of us quite like to move towards caring less though?

It's hard to imagine a pinkpoint ascent of something like this would feel 'worthless', anyway. I'd imagine it would be quite memorable up there.

I wasn't being entirely facetious when I suggested this sort of thing might be 'better' on a top rope.

[Kingy]

I think you've sort of answered your own question here, i.e. pinkpointing would obviously be easier than placing gear on lead, but harder than top-roping.

Hard to say regarding 'worth' - worth to you, or worth in the view of the wider community? Not that those are discrete, because unless you're impressively self-possessed the consensus view will affect your own. Wouldn't most of us quite like to move towards caring less though?

It's hard to imagine a pinkpoint ascent of something like this would feel 'worthless', anyway. I'd imagine it would be quite memorable up there.

I wasn't being entirely facetious when I suggested this sort of thing might be 'better' on a top rope.

I agree, I suppose worth would relate to the climber and the wider community as well to a certain extent as I guess that has some bearing as you say. I can think of other examples of pinkpoint ascents on preplaced gear but they don't seem to be satisfactory to anybody really as they would be easier than placing gear on lead. I guess if you're going to all that trouble to get up there you may as well do it properly!

[Ed booth]

It's such a funny business on these hard head points. It almost seems that by following 'the rules' Dave has almost made it look like an impressive and difficult, but ultimately unappealing route.
I will clarify that I think its a great looking bit of wall, rock and moves. I also have huge respect for Dave and find him so inspiring.
Back in the late 80's/early 90's you would probably have just pre-placed the kit and and head pointed it like that. I sort of find it funny that the arbitrary 'rules' of head pointing such as down climbing so as to not weight the gear are done in a way to replicate a close experience to what an on sight attempt would have to do.
But the fact that you have the specific rack and know how to place the highly specific gear and the fact that you know all the sequences already take this away anyway.
Back when On Sight film came out I found Neil D's comment about head pointing being rubbish and easy a bit shortsighted. Fair enough if you don't want to do it but saying it is easy seemed to miss the point. He was pushing on sighting standards, but could have found a suitably hard head point challenge for him.
Similarly, it would be great to see Dave M do a head point (pink point) of something even harder and bolder on pre placed kit. This would be a good way of pushing the standard and setting a marker for the future. I wonder if he draws a line for his own head points that he will only do it if he can place the gear, and if he can't he won't do it at all, as oppose to doing it in the best form of a lead for himself?
I personally have dabbled with all of the options in the past. Head points with kit pre placed, placing all kit on lead, placing and then down climbing etc. My biggest regret has been opportunities to not lead a route on pre placed kit because I have felt I should come back and do it placing the kit to satisfy 'the rules".
I wish I had cared less and taken a desert island approach of thinking, "If nobody was ever going to find out about this, what would I do now for fun on this route?"
I'm nowadays more inclined, like Andy Moles said, to just enjoy a top rope on something and enjoy the climbing rather than turning it into a weird rehearsal that could end up getting nailed, and missing a load of climbing.
Each to their own though, and it's great that Dave still loves this so much and keeps driving it.