[Oldmanmatt]

2xBW.

bench press?

Well, yeah. I’m a cuddly 85kg.
And a bit.

[DAVETHOMAS90]

Bon effort to Gresham

Otherwise what Gav said.

Yep, thanks Gav for your post    +1

What I'm taking away from this thread is a heap of new psyche for new benchmarks..

And that 50+ is the new 30 

I remember walking down the road after a session on Pollitt's board. I must have been 22/23, and thinking "I guess that's it; mountaineering for me from now on" (except I missed that bit out).

I think that the way we pick our battles/challenges, changes as we get older.

When we're younger, I think we can be more motivated by a sense of how our performance reflects on ourselves; that can drive us. However, taking a step back, and asking "Actually, what is possible?", is something we are perhaps only able to do with a degree of detachment that may only come with age anyway.

Totally agree with the comments about the level of physical performance we're talking about here being nothing even remotely unusual.

The reference to other artificial means just comes across as the sort of bollocks spouted by folk who don't want to acknowledge the level of focused effort that some people are prepared to invest in their long term goals.

For me, Gresh's psyche comes as much as anything, from the relief and payback from the risk of making that investment.

It should come across as nothing other than a source of inspiration.

  

[Andy F]

Ben Moon: 9a at 49
Ste Mac: 9b at 49
Stevie Haston: 8c+/9a at 52

Just saying...

[Fiend]

Good post GME.

now hes a drug taking, over grading cheat. WTF.

I agree it's important to be aware to what extent the forum response is portraying him as a drug taking, over grading cheat, because that would be a pretty damn harsh response to his new route. To help out with this I've had a quick scan through the thread (prior to your post) and determined this:

Posters directly accusing him of drug taking:
-

Posters raising suspicions (mild or strong) of him drug taking:
-

Posters directly accusing him of over grading:
-

Posters raising suspicions (mild or strong) of him over grading:
Nike Air
Tony S
IanP
northern yob

Posters rubbernecking a potential Dave Mac downgrade:
(does not imply personal suspicions of over grading and may be more focused on DMac's downgrading habits)
Duncan campbell
Will Hunt
Fiend

Posters replying not accusing him of over grading nor drug taking:
(may include criticism of the UKC article or independence of the route etc etc, may also include off-topic posts)
SAChris
shurt
erm, sam
Danny
Wellsy
Johnny Brown
mark20
Adam Lincoln
shark
teestub
guy percival
Ged
petejh
ali k
cheque
Bonjoy
Bradders
Ross Barker
duncan
Footwork
dunnyg
grimer
Fultonious
Will Hunt
andy popp
Yossarian
galpinos
colin8ll
jwi
remus
abarro81
DAVETHOMAS90
cowboyhat
PaulB
andy moles
jakk
carlisle slapper
haydn jones
Nails
Neil F
seankenny
turnipturned
Serpico
Liamhutch89
tim palmer
AJM
Nibile
wasbeen
36chambers
roddersm
Banana finger
Rocksteady

Posters specifically interested in Gresh's testicles:
Doylo

[mark s]

Great post gme.

a bitter, armchair critic, old man

I know he’s traditionally a pin-up for this forum but this is certainly how Malc Smith comes across recently. Young lad climbs Hubble? Doesn’t count ‘cos he used a kneepad. Older climbers do a new high-profile trad route? Must be on steroids. 

You’d think someone who’d climbed at the cutting edge himself would feel secure enough to be humble when other climbers do well, at least in public.

Nail on the head

The fact he has deleted said post says alot.

I know I can be a grumpy old twat with some climbing topics but seeing hard routes get done is inspiring and is what we should be seeing, especially after a summer of Olympic climbing (see earlier comment)

If I was him I'd make a public apology


I'm half tempted to be a Guinea pig and see how steroids would or would not benefit a climber. I am sceptical it would be a huge leap. A low dose to allow training everyday would be the best method. That's where I'd fall down as once a week hanging from a 20mm strip of wood is enough. Higher doses would only add weight. Muscle strength increase is fast, tendons cannot keep up and as soon as you pull hard the injuries will come.
Overall I don't see the point.

[Wellsy]

Great post gme.

a bitter, armchair critic, old man

I know he’s traditionally a pin-up for this forum but this is certainly how Malc Smith comes across recently. Young lad climbs Hubble? Doesn’t count ‘cos he used a kneepad. Older climbers do a new high-profile trad route? Must be on steroids. 

You’d think someone who’d climbed at the cutting edge himself would feel secure enough to be humble when other climbers do well, at least in public.

Nail on the head

The fact he has deleted said post says alot.

I know I can be a grumpy old twat with some climbing topics but seeing hard routes get done is inspiring and is what we should be seeing, especially after a summer of Olympic climbing (see earlier comment)

If I was him I'd make a public apology


I'm half tempted to be a Guinea pig and see how steroids would or would not benefit a climber. I am sceptical it would be a huge leap. A low dose to allow training everyday would be the best method. That's where I'd fall down as once a week hanging from a 20mm strip of wood is enough. Higher doses would only add weight. Muscle strength increase is fast, tendons cannot keep up and as soon as you pull hard the injuries will come.
Overall I don't see the point.

I think the training every day benefit would be pretty substantial. There's no doubt in my mind that PEDs could benefit climbers. But yeah not like power lifting!

[Oldmanmatt]

Great post gme.

a bitter, armchair critic, old man

I know he’s traditionally a pin-up for this forum but this is certainly how Malc Smith comes across recently. Young lad climbs Hubble? Doesn’t count ‘cos he used a kneepad. Older climbers do a new high-profile trad route? Must be on steroids. 

You’d think someone who’d climbed at the cutting edge himself would feel secure enough to be humble when other climbers do well, at least in public.

Nail on the head

The fact he has deleted said post says alot.

I know I can be a grumpy old twat with some climbing topics but seeing hard routes get done is inspiring and is what we should be seeing, especially after a summer of Olympic climbing (see earlier comment)

If I was him I'd make a public apology


I'm half tempted to be a Guinea pig and see how steroids would or would not benefit a climber. I am sceptical it would be a huge leap. A low dose to allow training everyday would be the best method. That's where I'd fall down as once a week hanging from a 20mm strip of wood is enough. Higher doses would only add weight. Muscle strength increase is fast, tendons cannot keep up and as soon as you pull hard the injuries will come.
Overall I don't see the point.

Yup. I once heard a mate refer to it as “the twang juice” after the sound of a biceps insertion leaving home to settle closer to the shoulder, or similar…

[Johnny Brown]

Not surprised Malc has deleted that post, seemed like a real random one.

Totally agree with Fiend, I think Gav's comments would have been far better directed at Malc (particularly given he is one of the few forum members who might have his number). Having reread the last couple of pages pretty much every post is looking at Malc's comment and concluding it is baseless, or discussing drugs in sport in a general way. The only post that could be read as endorsing Malc's conclusion makes more sense as an attempt to work through his logic.

The enthusiastic endorsement of Gav's post suggests either I've missed something major, or there are a lot of skim-readers on the forum.

I'm sure as baffled and disappointed by Malc's comments as Neil probably is, there must also be an acknowledgement that you don't attract bizarre criticism form such high profile pundits without doing something pretty exceptional in the first place. I'm actually struggling think of a bigger compliment to your training than Malcolm declaring you must be on drugs, it's like when people start quizzing you about what chalk or rubber you're using because they can't quite believe the gulf in performance. Fucking skill mate.

[petejh]

Fiend can you stick me down also for ‘interested in Gresh’s balls’.
Ta.

[Fiend]

Sorry, too late to modify the post, but I think it's safe to say that most, if not all, of the people who are posting but not accusing of over-grading nor drug-taking are still definitely interested in Gresh's balls. It's just that Doylo is ONLY interested in those....





FWIW, in the interest of fairness, there has been a fair amount of criticism of the UKC article and some criticism of the purity / quality of the actual line, which may or may not be fair game for the armchair punt-dits.

[petejh]

Neils done more for UK climbing than the rest of us put together

While I agree, I think, with the general sentiment of your rant this stuck out to me as an odd thing to say.
In a spirit of ‘what have the Romans ever done for us?’, can you expand on what it is you think that Neil has done for UK climbing that’s more than the rest of us put together?

[SA Chris]

I thought the same, noting the presence of some keen developers, guide book writers and climbing media producers.

[Yossarian]

Off the top of my head, inspired thousands of London climbers to jump up and down on the spot and wave their hands in circles of varying radii...

[teestub]

I'm half tempted to be a Guinea pig and see how steroids would or would not benefit a climber.

I think hypothetically, as with creatine, it would be the faster recovery at lower doses, rather than any muscle building that would be the main benefit for climbing. Being able to have 6 well recovered sessions a week rather than 5 would make a massive difference for a pro over a year. Pro cyclists still get positive tests for nandrolone etc. and they definitely aren’t interested in increasing mass!

[Bradders]

Off the top of my head, inspired thousands of London climbers to jump up and down on the spot and wave their hands in circles of varying radii...

Surely a negative contribution if anything then?

[Johnny Brown]

FWIW, in the interest of fairness, there has been a fair amount of criticism of the UKC article and some criticism of the purity / quality of the actual line, which may or may not be fair game for the armchair punt-dits.

It's a climbing forum. Clearly it is fair game. If you just want back-slapping stick to congratulatory commenting on Instagram and characterising absolutely anything else as 'the haters'.

Surely a negative contribution if anything then?

Neil has a broad CV that only a handful can compare to and maybe Dave Mac is the only obvious person to have comfortably exceeded it, and his contribution to DWS was pretty major. So he deserves respect. But being the first pro climber to move to London to further their career definitely suggests that pro climbing is not going where many of us would like it to be going. Is that positive? For the people he inspired, yes. For climbing generally there is a debate to be had. And did Neil just do what he had to or did he help create that environment? Who knows. But it's encouraging to see he wasn't trapped by it, and moving to Kendal and doing hard new routes in the Lakes is surely something we can endorse.

[mark s]

Not surprised Malc has deleted that post, seemed like a real random one.

Totally agree with Fiend, I think Gav's comments would have been far better directed at Malc (particularly given he is one of the few forum members who might have his number). Having reread the last couple of pages pretty much every post is looking at Malc's comment and concluding it is baseless, or discussing drugs in sport in a general way. The only post that could be read as endorsing Malc's conclusion makes more sense as an attempt to work through his logic.

The enthusiastic endorsement of Gav's post suggests either I've missed something major, or there are a lot of skim-readers on the forum.

I'm sure as baffled and disappointed by Malc's comments as Neil probably is, there must also be an acknowledgement that you don't attract bizarre criticism form such high profile pundits without doing something pretty exceptional in the first place. I'm actually struggling think of a bigger compliment to your training than Malcolm declaring you must be on drugs, it's like when people start quizzing you about what chalk or rubber you're using because they can't quite believe the gulf in performance. Fucking skill mate.

Getting accused of being on steroids is the best compliment you can have over your training.

If there was a drug to give you the cahoons like Neil and Steve, I want some.

[Ged]

FWIW, in the interest of fairness, there has been a fair amount of criticism of the UKC article and some criticism of the purity / quality of the actual line, which may or may not be fair game for the armchair punt-dits.

It's a climbing forum. Clearly it is fair game. If you just want back-slapping stick to congratulatory commenting on Instagram and characterising absolutely anything else as 'the haters'.

Surely a negative contribution if anything then?

Neil has a broad CV that only a handful can compare to and maybe Dave Mac is the only obvious person to have comfortably exceeded it, and his contribution to DWS was pretty major. So he deserves respect. But being the first pro climber to move to London to further their career definitely suggests that pro climbing is not going where many of us would like it to be going. Is that positive? For the people he inspired, yes. For climbing generally there is a debate to be had. And did Neil just do what he had to or did he help create that environment? Who knows. But it's encouraging to see he wasn't trapped by it, and moving to Kendal and doing hard new routes in the Lakes is surely something we can endorse.

The guy is from London.  I'm not sure career can be the only reason he moved there. 

Also, is a coach the same as a pro climber?  I don't think it is.  He was making money by coaching people, not by climbing non-significant routes and making a big deal out of them.

[Johnny Brown]

The guy is from London.  I'm not sure career can be the only reason he moved there.

Clearly he's free to do whatever he wants. The comment was in the context of the idea that he has "done more for UK climbing than the rest of us put together".

climbing non-significant routes and making a big deal out of them

Are there any pro climbers in the UK making a living like that? Maybe Steve Mac? The rest are all coaching or have a job/ business.

[shark]

climbing non-significant routes and making a big deal out of them

Are there any pro climbers in the UK making a living like that? Maybe Steve Mac? The rest are all coaching or have a job/ business.

Well I don’t think he can be accused of bigging up non-significant routes (I’m sure you didn’t mean to imply that) and he doesn’t live off sponsorship - his day job is route setting, coaching and other bits and bobs.

[SA Chris]

Are there any pro climbers in the UK making a living like that?

Surely some of the young comp wads are living (although maybe not making a living ?) off not doing any routes at all, are they defined as pros though? 

[Johnny Brown]

Well I don’t think he can be accused of bigging up non-significant routes (I’m sure you didn’t mean to imply that)

Sorry yeah just read it as doing significant routes! Bloody skim-readers eh!

his day job is route setting, coaching and other bits and bobs

So yeah none then. I think Dunnie managed it for a bit in the nineties? (Mostly getting paid to big up new routes, arguments about significance notwithstanding).

Surely some of the young comp wads are living (although maybe not making a living ?) off not doing any routes at all

And arguably not doing much in comps either? I've no idea if they're making a living tbh, but if they are all bathing in Cristal on the Sport England gravy train you can see why no one under 30 is bothering much with hard trad.

[Bradders]

Surely a negative contribution if anything then?

Neil has a broad CV that only a handful can compare to and maybe Dave Mac is the only obvious person to have comfortably exceeded it, and his contribution to DWS was pretty major. So he deserves respect. But being the first pro climber to move to London to further their career definitely suggests that pro climbing is not going where many of us would like it to be going. Is that positive? For the people he inspired, yes. For climbing generally there is a debate to be had. And did Neil just do what he had to or did he help create that environment? Who knows. But it's encouraging to see he wasn't trapped by it, and moving to Kendal and doing hard new routes in the Lakes is surely something we can endorse.

My tongue was firmly in cheek with my comment....

[sxrxg]

The guy is from London.  I'm not sure career can be the only reason he moved there. 

Also, is a coach the same as a pro climber?  I don't think it is.  He was making money by coaching people, not by climbing non-significant routes and making a big deal out of them.

Is this not similar to a PGA professional in golf vs a touring professional golfer? Both would be classed as golf professionals as it is how they make a living just one makes a living coaching and running golf clubs whereas the other makes money from competition winnings. Could we not have a similar setup in climbing where a minimum climbing standard is required, minimum time working within the industry, and the requirement to undertake professional training each year and stay current with the latest standards? Golf is obviously a very old sport and very well developed so it may take significant period before climbing gets something similar to the PGA membership scheme. There is also the debate about if climbing should have this level of professional involvement or if as a community we wish to stay more 'grass roots'.

You also have golf influencers making money off Instagram/YouTube etc, I think that most of these whilst making a living from golf would consider themselves social media professionals and not golf professionals. Liam from golfmates Youtube as an example, there is also Rick Shiels however he is also a PGA professional. I can't really think of any obvious examples in climbing though that would be making a living from this, possibly Bouldering Bobat are getting a decent amount of advertising with over a million views on some YouTube videos.

[Ged]

The guy is from London.  I'm not sure career can be the only reason he moved there.

Clearly he's free to do whatever he wants. The comment was in the context of the idea that he has "done more for UK climbing than the rest of us put together".

climbing non-significant routes and making a big deal out of them

Are there any pro climbers in the UK making a living like that? Maybe Steve Mac? The rest are all coaching or have a job/ business.

How does living in london affect one's ability to make a big contribution (whatever that means) to climbing? Mick Fowler etc.

I don't think there's many pro climbers making an actual living full stop, but theres definitely people who are trying to be pro climbers, and make money from just going climbing. I don't think Gresh does that (certainly not from the media I see), he very clearly makes his money by doing a job within the climbing industry. They're quite different.