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Lexicon, E11 7a FA for Neil Gresham (Read 56007 times)

northern yob

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#150 Re: Lexicon, E11 7a FA for Neil Gresham
September 18, 2021, 08:49:26 am
From the comfort of my armchair I’m gonna throw out a couple of thoughts. I’m certainly trying not to shitsling although probably failing dismally.

Steve said in the Ukc write up it was easier than Rhapsody, now he’s taken the ride and was fine (although probably at least a bit flustered) can it still be E11? I’m genuinely interested what people think!

Also from the instasham photo there looks to be a runner in the bottom of sixpence, is this a side runner or does the route climb into sixpence? Either way I don’t recall this being mentioned in the ukc write up. And why would you not put one a little higher up in sixpence whilst your there if you are worried about the lob?

Am I the only one thinking these things?

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#151 Re: Lexicon, E11 7a FA for Neil Gresham
September 18, 2021, 09:06:13 am
So soft E11 (if you're a F9b climber) that uses a side-runner low down (not on the big lob upper bit), that might be a logical and sensible place to have a side-runner rather than climbing higher up Sixpence and reversing. Makes sense.

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#152 Re: Lexicon, E11 7a FA for Neil Gresham
September 18, 2021, 09:18:06 am
So soft E11 (if you're a F9b climber) that uses a side-runner low down (not on the big lob upper bit), that might be a logical and sensible place to have a side-runner rather than climbing higher up Sixpence and reversing. Makes sense.

Isn’t his top runner in the bottom of the pod/groove of sixpence? My post wasn’t very clear about where I meant.

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#153 Re: Lexicon, E11 7a FA for Neil Gresham
September 18, 2021, 09:20:59 am
So to be clear his bottom and his top runner are both in sixpence I think…..

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#154 Re: Lexicon, E11 7a FA for Neil Gresham
September 18, 2021, 09:29:55 am
Ah right. I didn't see the original stuff on Insta, but someone was kind enough to send me this draft topo for the next edition of FRCC Langdale, which might help....



(slight error on the lower line of Lexicon but I'm sure the proof-readers will get that fixed before it goes to print)

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#155 Re: Lexicon, E11 7a FA for Neil Gresham
September 18, 2021, 09:34:15 am
 Think it's looking that way pal, not that it was mentioned in the press release...  :shrug:

It'll be interesting to see how it pans out. They all seem to coach each other and then get loads of  big ups that it might be hard for them to be honest.

If that lakes has a stunning E11 I'd be well psyched, I'm all for pushing grades and new lines.

I've not done impact day or sixpence, has Neil?



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#156 Re: Lexicon, E11 7a FA for Neil Gresham
September 18, 2021, 09:41:18 am
Ah right. I didn't see the original stuff on Insta, but someone was kind enough to send me this draft topo for the next edition of FRCC Langdale, which might help....



(slight error on the lower line of Lexicon but I'm sure the proof-readers will get that fixed before it goes to print)

Have you ever considered a career with Rockfax?

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#157 Re: Lexicon, E11 7a FA for Neil Gresham
September 18, 2021, 10:34:52 am
God this is such a shitty thread, sure is fun shitting on someone for putting themselves out there.
Maybe if Ste Mac AND Dave Mac AND Gresh are all talking E11 then it is in fact E11, and if it gets downgraded then who gives a shit! Things get downgraded! And perhaps that would say more about the totally contradictory nature of top-end trad grading than this particular route and its first ascentionist  :-\ (see bouldering grades around 2010 for comparison - how no one wanted to give harder than V15 and it totally messed up the world scale, or the Gaskins effect on UK bouldering), maybe there should be more E11s, and some theoretical 9B trad route should actually be E14, instead of stretching the existing scale indefinitely....

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#158 Re: Lexicon, E11 7a FA for Neil Gresham
September 18, 2021, 10:39:03 am
The upper crucial gear is the gear for sixpence, but also in the E4 Solstice that comes across that break. Its a bomber nest of up to four size 1-2 cams, as caff mentioned on insta, if you were in scotland you'd probably just rock up into sixpence and pop a few more wires in that groove too (extra 1.5m less of run out), then downclimb and hey presto 2 hr rest, no rack and no clips but a long fall if it goes wrong. The headwall looks great climbing and a superb effort but what confuses me a little as to why these new lines are sold as independent etc when there's so much history on that face from the 70's onwards. I'd be more motivated to try it as a LH finish to sixpence. Its inspiring to see things pushed in the lakes but personally its a bit of a dented trumpet if all thats left to tackle is shoulder width variations, are there really so few blank canvasses left with good sequences? i'd naively hope there are still  routes to do of this quality that just have a bit more breathing space or can be at least sold as seen. Hard truly independent routes on mountain rock do seem incredibly rare finds so perhaps its a lot to ask in this day and age. The potential in the lakes for 4-8m hard sections spurring off other lines is definitely all there, and maybe thats no bad thing if the quality of the moves is as good as this looks.

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#159 Re: Lexicon, E11 7a FA for Neil Gresham
September 18, 2021, 10:45:42 am
Have you ever considered a career with Rockfax?
Wash your mouth out!!  >:( :sick:

To be clear, I did not make this topo, (insta is still in it's "beg for registration so you can be fed into the FB data/marketting machine" mode), it was an anonymous donor helping me out.

P.S. Following a bit from the latter bit of what Carlisle Slapper wrote, from my non-shitting-on armchair it reminds me a lot of Rhapsody - not the purest of line, maybe with some slight contrivance and escapability, but you can see what the FA was aiming for - to climb a certain bit of high quality rock in a particularly challenging way (in Rhapsody this was "climb the full height of the shield above the end of Requiem as much as possible without escaping early"). Sometimes that's just the way things work??

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#160 Re: Lexicon, E11 7a FA for Neil Gresham
September 18, 2021, 02:25:02 pm
It shouldn't be... seen as 'shit flinging'.
This was a reaction to Will Hunt's comment about hoping Dave Mac 'slags' the grade on Lexicon. Maybe tongue in cheek but I do think it reflects a level of gleeful schadenfreude that exists among climbers regarding downgrading. My main objection to this is the distorting effect it has on grading - see old debates about the state of UK bouldering grades at the top end.

To be honest, I think a downgrade is inevitable but my comment was more motivated by a desire to see some rationality applied to something that has probably been a little over-hyped. I can totally understand being psyched off your head for your project, but it always pays to step back, draw breath, and wonder whether something is really as hard/dangerous/good as you thought it was in the moment; to try and present it honestly and to be prepared to have someone make a different assessment of it.

Time and inspection by others will tell. I just hope that they will feel they can give an honest assessment without it being seen as shit-flinging.
But why do you ‘hope’ that’s the outcome of Dave’s attempt? Wouldn’t you rather be proved wrong and it was E11  :shrug:

The grade will sort itself out. The fall sounds unpleasant but not beyond the realms of what could be considered averagely safe at this top end. I think the distances are probably being oversold. I know Steve's not massive bit I'm not sure how this can measure up to be a 10m runout, notwithstanding that it's still a big lob.
https://www.instagram.com/p/CT9L_XhoPuN/?utm_medium=copy_link

My main beef was with the hype Vs actual quality of the line ratio. Dan has captured almost word for word what it was that I felt so please direct any further questions to him.

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#161 Re: Lexicon, E11 7a FA for Neil Gresham
September 18, 2021, 11:43:54 pm
Nice to see a few more great posts celebrating the effort  :2thumbsup:

.. and effort Ste Mac.

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#162 Re: Lexicon, E11 7a FA for Neil Gresham
September 19, 2021, 03:16:33 pm
It shouldn't be... seen as 'shit flinging'.
This was a reaction to Will Hunt's comment about hoping Dave Mac 'slags' the grade on Lexicon. Maybe tongue in cheek but I do think it reflects a level of gleeful schadenfreude that exists among climbers regarding downgrading. My main objection to this is the distorting effect it has on grading - see old debates about the state of UK bouldering grades at the top end.

To be honest, I think a downgrade is inevitable but my comment was more motivated by a desire to see some rationality applied to something that has probably been a little over-hyped. I can totally understand being psyched off your head for your project, but it always pays to step back, draw breath, and wonder whether something is really as hard/dangerous/good as you thought it was in the moment; to try and present it honestly and to be prepared to have someone make a different assessment of it.

Time and inspection by others will tell. I just hope that they will feel they can give an honest assessment without it being seen as shit-flinging.
But why do you ‘hope’ that’s the outcome of Dave’s attempt? Wouldn’t you rather be proved wrong and it was E11  :shrug:

The grade will sort itself out. The fall sounds unpleasant but not beyond the realms of what could be considered averagely safe at this top end. I think the distances are probably being oversold. I know Steve's not massive bit I'm not sure how this can measure up to be a 10m runout, notwithstanding that it's still a big lob.
https://www.instagram.com/p/CT9L_XhoPuN/?utm_medium=copy_link

My main beef was with the hype Vs actual quality of the line ratio. Dan has captured almost word for word what it was that I felt so please direct any further questions to him.

Is the whole crag even 40' high? Or would an 80' lob including some subterranean catering action?

cheque

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#163 Re: Lexicon, E11 7a FA for Neil Gresham
September 19, 2021, 07:13:46 pm
Pavey Ark’s 100m+ tall. The wall these routes are on starts partway up a gully on one side but it’s still taller than 80ft. Impact Day & Sixpence are both listed as 33m in the guide.

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#164 Re: Lexicon, E11 7a FA for Neil Gresham
September 19, 2021, 11:05:26 pm
It shouldn't be... seen as 'shit flinging'.
This was a reaction to Will Hunt's comment about hoping Dave Mac 'slags' the grade on Lexicon. Maybe tongue in cheek but I do think it reflects a level of gleeful schadenfreude that exists among climbers regarding downgrading. My main objection to this is the distorting effect it has on grading - see old debates about the state of UK bouldering grades at the top end.

To be honest, I think a downgrade is inevitable but my comment was more motivated by a desire to see some rationality applied to something that has probably been a little over-hyped. I can totally understand being psyched off your head for your project, but it always pays to step back, draw breath, and wonder whether something is really as hard/dangerous/good as you thought it was in the moment; to try and present it honestly and to be prepared to have someone make a different assessment of it.

Time and inspection by others will tell. I just hope that they will feel they can give an honest assessment without it being seen as shit-flinging.
But why do you ‘hope’ that’s the outcome of Dave’s attempt? Wouldn’t you rather be proved wrong and it was E11  :shrug:

The grade will sort itself out. The fall sounds unpleasant but not beyond the realms of what could be considered averagely safe at this top end. I think the distances are probably being oversold. I know Steve's not massive bit I'm not sure how this can measure up to be a 10m runout, notwithstanding that it's still a big lob.
https://www.instagram.com/p/CT9L_XhoPuN/?utm_medium=copy_link

My main beef was with the hype Vs actual quality of the line ratio. Dan has captured almost word for word what it was that I felt so please direct any further questions to him.

Is the whole crag even 40' high? Or would an 80' lob including some subterranean catering action?

Might want to do some fact checking

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#165 Re: Lexicon, E11 7a FA for Neil Gresham
September 20, 2021, 08:13:46 am
It shouldn't be... seen as 'shit flinging'.
This was a reaction to Will Hunt's comment about hoping Dave Mac 'slags' the grade on Lexicon. Maybe tongue in cheek but I do think it reflects a level of gleeful schadenfreude that exists among climbers regarding downgrading. My main objection to this is the distorting effect it has on grading - see old debates about the state of UK bouldering grades at the top end.

To be honest, I think a downgrade is inevitable but my comment was more motivated by a desire to see some rationality applied to something that has probably been a little over-hyped. I can totally understand being psyched off your head for your project, but it always pays to step back, draw breath, and wonder whether something is really as hard/dangerous/good as you thought it was in the moment; to try and present it honestly and to be prepared to have someone make a different assessment of it.

Time and inspection by others will tell. I just hope that they will feel they can give an honest assessment without it being seen as shit-flinging.
But why do you ‘hope’ that’s the outcome of Dave’s attempt? Wouldn’t you rather be proved wrong and it was E11  :shrug:

The grade will sort itself out. The fall sounds unpleasant but not beyond the realms of what could be considered averagely safe at this top end. I think the distances are probably being oversold. I know Steve's not massive bit I'm not sure how this can measure up to be a 10m runout, notwithstanding that it's still a big lob.
https://www.instagram.com/p/CT9L_XhoPuN/?utm_medium=copy_link

My main beef was with the hype Vs actual quality of the line ratio. Dan has captured almost word for word what it was that I felt so please direct any further questions to him.

Is the whole crag even 40' high? Or would an 80' lob including some subterranean catering action?

Might want to do some fact checking

Ach, I only posted that as a mate said impact day etc. were only about 25m to the top. It was a question rather than a statement!

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#166 Re: Lexicon, E11 7a FA for Neil Gresham
September 20, 2021, 10:16:46 am
It’s not at all uncommon for guidebooks to overestimate route lengths. It’s almost like guidebook pitch lengths are a nominal length, the reality usually being very different. Probably comes partly from a concern about people abbing or lowering off ends of ropes because ‘the guide said it’s only 25m..’ Partly from people being terrible at judging distances. Partly from rounding up to make a bigger number.
If a guidebook said a pitch I was about to try was 33m I’d expect it to be around 25-30.

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#167 Re: Lexicon, E11 7a FA for Neil Gresham
September 20, 2021, 10:29:28 am
Steve reckoned he fell about 23m. So looking at the pic those figures are in the ballpark - he's more than 2m above the belayer but not 10m.

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#168 Re: Lexicon, E11 7a FA for Neil Gresham
September 20, 2021, 10:29:41 am
Especially when the lengths are very approximately converted from good olde CC / FRCC yards, inches, fathoms and groats.

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#169 Re: Lexicon, E11 7a FA for Neil Gresham
September 20, 2021, 10:32:46 am
Steve reckoned he fell about 23m. So looking at the pic those figures are in the ballpark - he's more than 2m above the belayer but not 10m.

 :blink: :blink: :sick: :sick: that really is a mighty big fall!

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#170 Re: Lexicon, E11 7a FA for Neil Gresham
September 20, 2021, 10:34:32 am
E11 fall innit!

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#171 Re: Lexicon, E11 7a FA for Neil Gresham
September 20, 2021, 10:41:29 am

If a guidebook said a pitch I was about to try was 33m I’d expect it to be around 25-30.

For sportclimbing sectors, if the guide book says that a route is 31m, I would expect to get back to the ground on rope stretch with a 60m. If the guide says 33m I would expect to not get back on stretch with a 60m rope.

If it is Blixt's guidebook to Kvaløya and it says that a pitch is 60m I would expect to be able to reach the belay with 60m doubles and some ten metres of simul climbing.

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#172 Re: Lexicon, E11 7a FA for Neil Gresham
September 20, 2021, 02:29:00 pm
If a guidebook said a pitch I was about to try was 33m I’d expect it to be around 25-30.

This has not been my experience when climbing in the USA (or generally outside of the UK).

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#173 Re: Lexicon, E11 7a FA for Neil Gresham
September 20, 2021, 05:23:13 pm
I think this is all a slightly tricky one.

Just re route length first, of course, trad routes can be considerably longer on the rock, than the fall/ab line. The quoted route length taking into account all the meanderings. My falls tend to be a bit more direct.

Thinking about the grade, and the amount of practice that will go into preparing for the lead, there will be a wide margin between the theoretical on-sight grade, and the "grade" of the actual ascent after practice - and considerable variation in that margin.

Considering Steve's fall, the location of the route etc, it may be that the route is E10, but the ascent is likely to be much nearer that grade after some practice, than for instance a headpoint on the grit. As pointed out above, we can take into account Steve's experience of the fall, which itself changes the grade of the route. There's certainly no problem with Neil giving it the E11 tag.

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#174 Re: Lexicon, E11 7a FA for Neil Gresham
September 20, 2021, 10:30:49 pm
If a guidebook said a pitch I was about to try was 33m I’d expect it to be around 25-30.

This has not been my experience when climbing in the USA (or generally outside of the UK).

Perhaps I should have made it clear - UK guidebooks overestimate trad route lengths. Always, no exceptions.
(Typed from a valley in Sligo with amazing undeveloped 50, no 60, no 70m cliffs!)

 

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