[Franco]

I think people deliberately confuse pokey routes with very dangerous routes. There's a world of difference between an 8b with a bit of a slammy fall and a death 8b, especially if the climbing is really insecure. There really isn't much of the latter anywhere.

Not sure people are deliberately confusing anything, and I’m not convinced there’s that much of a clear divide to be honest. A long slammy fall can go disastrously wrong. And a supposed ‘death’ route could have a lucky outcome. And there’s plenty of grey in between. I’ve done bolted ‘sport’ routes which are far more dangerous than a lot of hard(ish) trad. That’s not uncommon outside of the UK.

IIRC Dave Mac fell onto that RP on Rhapsody and almost broke it - which would have turned it from a long but safe fall into possible death. How can you grade precisely for something like that? Why even bother, if it takes so much effort and thought to try and pin it down - especially when history has shown so often that the next person will have a different experience on it? I guess the answer is simple - look at the comments on UKC and it’s mainly just fascination with the ‘E11’ badge.

I mean Trad climbing is all about the subjective and perceptions. If you discount how a route 'feels' then obviously the E grade will make no sense. I think there is an argument for abandoning the E grade and I totally agree about the obsession with it. It's weird. On balance though, it does inform in a way that 8b r/x does not - as you've just perfectly demonstrated. Routes like Parthian Shot change with perceptions. Perceptions change with events, rock damage and the stories people tell. The main take away from that story is to not trust hollow flakes entirely.

Most people putting up routes with big E grades are geeks who aren't taking massive risks. If you're climbing 8c+s at Kilnsey all the time, I can see why someone getting loads of kudos for doing a bold 8b is annoying. At the extreme bold end though, it's a totally different game. Soloing a proper sketch 8a+ is still cutting edge in the bold Trad game. If you hate the whole game then fair enough, but maybe live and let live a little? It would be like me saying everything anyone does in Parisella's Cave is pointless and only training for the real thing - untrue and just makes me look like a bit of a plum.

 As for Europe, I've been on apparent E10s there, where the climbing isn't outrageous and there are bomber size 2 nuts everywhere you want them. I've long thought that the semi-pokey 8b style Trad routes are going to end up getting downgraded as standards increase, as standards on death routes just don't increase at the same rate. But then maybe I would say that, as I'm weak and mostly climb death routes?

[galpinos]

I enjoyed the write up, as an aging dad it filled me with inspiration that gains can still be made, but I can see that some found it lacking soul. However, having been to see Gresh speak once*, he was so enthusiastic, so open and so obviously obsessed with climbing the joy he got from climbing pretty much shone out of him and it's a shame that doesn't come through in the write up.

*Kenton Cool was on the same bill and that was dullest talk I have ever heard. Interestingly, my non-climbing wife felt the same. I though she'd like the mountaineering and find the minutiae of rock climbing dull but she said she found Gresh so engaging she really cared for what he was saying.

[Fiend]

look at the comments on UKB and it’s mainly just moaning the ‘E11’ badge.

 

[Tony S]

Somewhat "self-absorbed" and "vacuous" are what came to mind reading (most of) Neil's advertorial. Which, to be fair, is what one largely expects from UKC content. Perhaps the modern way.

The new route is an arbitrary, less obvious variation to ID (with which it shares ground). It's got an indifferent new start, shares the middle, and then a different finish. The finish must be pretty bouldery if it bumps ID from 7c+ to 8b+(ish). I'm sure the climbing is excellent as the rock there is lovely.

I agree with a lot of the other comments.  I don't really understand the grading, though I'd have fewer qualms with this if Neil didn't have a history of it: see Nike's comments (which have been echoed by others) and, e.g., https://www.frcc.co.uk/routes/fearless/


How about a thread on the demonisation of public critical review of well-known climbers' new routes...

[Fiend]

It's an interview with Gresh, about Gresh's new route, starring Gresh in a cameo role as Gresh, focusing on Gresh's preparation and experience on Gresh's route, what on earth do people expect the article to be about?? The history of minor ferns in the Pavey Ark East wall gully??

[Johnny Brown]

To be fair, the new line is the line of the wall. ID skirts off to edge of crag for a decent rest before coming back in for top hard moves.

The new route is an arbitrary, less obvious variation to ID (with which it shares ground). It's got an indifferent new start, shares the middle, and then a different finish.

Who to believe?  What Grimer said, entertaining thread anyway.

The history of minor ferns in the Pavey Ark East wall gully??

Now that I would be psyched for.

[colin8ll]

He’s obviously done a hard bit of climbing and his experience reaffirmed his belief in the benefits of coaching. As his whole thing is coaching, I’m not surprised he puts this front and centre in the press release. And he does admit in the article that it had been a slow year coaching-wise, so if this leads to a bit more work for him (and his mates) then fair dos.

His style of ascent is obviously at one end of the spectrum (with the drop testing, specific training and whatnot), which is a long way from what some of us still hold as the onsight, adventurous trad ideal. Perhaps awarding ‘the Olympic gold’ for this style of ascent is the most contentious bit?

[Tony S]

It's an interview with Gresh [...] what on earth do people expect the article to be about??

How about a hint of depth, surroundings, wider context...

[Johnny Brown]

Have we learned nothing from Team America rinsing all the hardest grit routes in one season

Hmm, missed this.  Two guys who have since shown themselves to be absolutely world class, on a long trip assisted by a bunch of very well-informed locals pointing them at exactly what would be most newsworthy and rinsing them with beta on gear and tactics. It would have been more surprising if they didn't tear it up (and note that the third guy didn't). 'All' is ludicrous hyperbole, for starters they tried Equilibrium quite a bit but didn't do it.

Most people putting up routes with big E grades are geeks who aren't taking massive risks. If you're climbing 8c+s at Kilnsey all the time, I can see why someone getting loads of kudos for doing a bold 8b is annoying.

This is the problem with big E grade trad climbing - it's just redpointing with less pro and it looks a lot less impressive on paper.

which is a long way from what some of us still hold as the onsight, adventurous trad ideal.

Quite. And what hasn't happened is the number of people operating 8c redpoint being matched by loads of E7/8 onsights. I don't think it's just fashion, it's that the skillset required is so much bigger, in a world which ever-increasingly values a number over an experience.

[teestub]

Quite. And what hasn't happened is the number of people operating 8c redpoint being matched by loads of E7/8 onsights. I don't think it's just fashion, it's that the skillset required is so much bigger, in a world which ever-increasingly values a number over an experience.

Can you divide fashion and skill set though? If something becomes more fashionable (like grit headpointing in days of yore) then more people do it and more people gain the necessary skillset.

If the move in climbing had been towards onsighting in the mountains being the thing, rather than big numbers, then you’d have a larger cohort taking part in the activity, with the corresponding increase in the elite.

[ali k]

I think there is an argument for abandoning the E grade and I totally agree about the obsession with it. On balance though, it does inform in a way that 8b r/x does not - as you've just perfectly demonstrated.

Inform who though? I'd argue it's only 'informing' the people who will never climb this route or even drop a rope down it (if so, then what's the point of it? - see arguments re: social media hype / advertorial bollocks). For anyone serious about repeating it they'll go and check it out and make their own judgement about the climbing and the risk, and 8b r/x is good enough, in fact better, to get them to that point.

I can see why someone getting loads of kudos for doing a bold 8b is annoying. If you hate the whole game then fair enough, but maybe live and let live a little? It would be like me saying everything anyone does in Parisella's Cave is pointless and only training for the real thing - untrue and just makes me look like a bit of a plum.

Has nothing to do with who's getting kudos or comparing the validity of bum-scraping traverses vs bold trad. Not sure if that's aimed at someone else? It's simply about the pointlessness of spending weeks pondering over whether something's categorically E10 or E11. And personally I'd prefer to have a better international comparison so foreign climbers can judge our routes for what they are without having to navigate a very niche grading system (which most people operating at that level agree is probably broken) and vice versa.

[ali k]

Have we learned nothing from Team America rinsing all the hardest grit routes in one season

'All' is ludicrous hyperbole, for starters they tried Equilibrium quite a bit but didn't do it.

Forgive me...but this thread is all about hyperbole!

[Johnny Brown]

Can you divide fashion and skill set though? If something becomes more fashionable (like grit headpointing in days of yore) then more people do it and more people gain the necessary skillset.

If the move in climbing had been towards onsighting in the mountains being the thing, rather than big numbers, then you’d have a larger cohort taking part in the activity, with the corresponding increase in the elite.

I suppose my point is that fashion and popularity are now almost completely driven by the numbers - whichever approach gets you bigger number for less effort. Whereas the basic premise of climbing is choosing to make it hard - there is almost always a path round the back after all, you can always bolt, you can always chip, you can always siege. Without broadly agreed ethics we don't have a sport, but increasingly any discussion of ethics is seen as a sort of fun-sponge wankery/ peanut gallery vs the freedom to do whatever you like without comment.

[shurt]

It strikes me that a lot of us are of the age at which we remember new hard routes being talked about in hushed tones, maybe having heard a story about something outrageous that John Redhead had done, or someone had had talked to x and seen y trying something super hard and scary. The less you knew about it the more amazing it sounded. Moat of these things were like works of art - mysteries to gaze up at or dream about. And even when you had more detail, like Johnny's account of the Indian Face — that actually ramped up the awesomeness.

Basically this is it in a nutshell for me. I was going to mention Johnny's essay. Climbing needs more of this and less guff about ballet coaches. Id rather be inspired than advertised at.

[Danny]

Good effort Neil.

Great comments everyone. Much crack.

I just can't believe you spelled craic like that grimer.

[Fiend]

Inform who though?

3 out of the 5 aspirants here:

1. Steve Maclure, who will agree with everything Neil says.
2. Dave Macleod, who will praise the quality whilst subtly suggesting it’s two grades easier than Echo Wall.
3. Alex Megos, who will downgrade it to 8b R/X.
4. Sonnie Trotter flew over but was kicked out of the country before he could attempt it after being caught bivvying in the National Trust car park.
5. Cumberland Sausage

Grades are just summaries of the relative challenges of a route compared to other routes which also have grades. Most common systems can summarise the overall challenge, boldness/seriousness, overall physical difficulty and hardest physical section quite well (with a bit of tweaking). It's not really that difficult nor controversial unless people are particularly fixated on something being a "big number" in one system or another (and if that system is the Great British Traditional Grading system, it might be worth considering E10 has been around for 21 years, E11 has been around 15 years, and "Ungraded but definitely harder than a route given E11" has been around for 13 years).

But as interesting as grade debates are...

Without broadly agreed ethics we don't have a sport, but increasingly any discussion of ethics is seen as a sort of fun-sponge wankery/ peanut gallery vs the freedom to do whatever you like without comment.

...ethics debates are far more fun 

[cheque]

When was the last time someone did a new route above E7 without also giving it a French or bouldering grade and adding detailed speculation about how much falling off it would hurt as well? It certainly wasn’t this time.

[shark]

Inform who though?

3 out of the 5 aspirants here:

1. Steve Maclure, who will agree with everything Neil says.
2. Dave Macleod, who will praise the quality whilst subtly suggesting it’s two grades easier than Echo Wall.
3. Alex Megos, who will downgrade it to 8b R/X.
4. Sonnie Trotter flew over but was kicked out of the country before he could attempt it after being caught bivvying in the National Trust car park.
5. Cumberland Sausage

Steve has already been on top rope and most likely any other suitors will too or will be more informed by gleaning beta than anything the grade provides.

[Will Hunt]

When was the last time someone did a new route above E7 without also giving it a French or bouldering grade and adding detailed speculation about how much falling off it would hurt as well? It certainly wasn’t this time.

Possibly within the last fortnight. But can't say for sure because Caff doesn't actually report what E grade The Pumphouse Party in Battleship Zawn is, let alone what French grade it might be or what the protection is like.

[jwi]

Soloing a proper sketch 8a+ is still cutting edge in the bold Trad game.

I find this very interesting, as I have no understanding of the game. But I also know that Alain Robert soloed an 8a+ with very insecure crux moves up high 31 years ago (when his top RP level was 8b, what a lunatic). That Alain Robert 31 of years ago is still at the level of today's creme-de-la-creme is more than impressive to me.

I guess levels in soloing rise much slower than for other types of climbing. I am not sure that Hansjörg's solo of the Fish has been substantially bettered by anyone for example.

I would however be chocked if the likes of Adam Ondra or Stefano Ghisolfi wouldn't be able to solo 9a if the were so inclined. I cannot imagine them falling off a 9a that they had practiced.

[remus]

I guess levels in soloing rise much slower than for other types of climbing. I am not sure that Hansjörg's solo of the Fish has been substantially bettered by anyone for example.

Honwad's solo of Freerider (I agree with your point though).

[Fultonius]

I guess levels in soloing rise much slower than for other types of climbing. I am not sure that Hansjörg's solo of the Fish has been substantially bettered by anyone for example.

Honwad's solo of Freerider (I agree with your point though).

I've always felt that the hype around Free rider overshadowed / ignored Hansjorg's ascent. Yes, the route is less sustained and the crux a bit easier, but he literally chucked a rope down it for a few hours then went back and did it the next day. Freerider was a step up, but maybe not quite the leap it was portrayed to be?

[Johnny Brown]

OTOH Fish it is reputedly much less secure climbing in general. But yes, overlooked due to the low key approach and the arena being one for the cognoscenti. The main step up for Freerider was the doing it in the biggest arena with people filming.

[Franco]

Soloing a proper sketch 8a+ is still cutting edge in the bold Trad game.

I find this very interesting, as I have no understanding of the game. But I also know that Alain Robert soloed an 8a+ with very insecure crux moves up high 31 years ago (when his top RP level was 8b, what a lunatic). That Alain Robert 31 of years ago is still at the level of today's creme-de-la-creme is more than impressive to me.

I guess levels in soloing rise much slower than for other types of climbing. I am not sure that Hansjörg's solo of the Fish has been substantially bettered by anyone for example.

I would however be chocked if the likes of Adam Ondra or Stefano Ghisolfi wouldn't be able to solo 9a if the were so inclined. I cannot imagine them falling off a 9a that they had practiced.

I think that last bit has to be a bit of a misconception. I think it's more than just having the psyche for a bit of danger, otherwise we'd have seen some outlier sport climber who had just gone radge and soloed a proper sketch 8c+.

I get the feeling that being the kind of person who trains hard enough to be climbing well into the f9s perhaps self selects you as someone who doesn't just take massive risks.

It's a lot more dangerous for Dave Mac to take a sketchy fall onto a slab than some loon who doesn't depend on his body for work and isn't a pro climber. Perhaps the future of really bold Trad therefore naturally precludes pros?

[jwi]

I get the feeling that being the kind of person who trains hard enough to be climbing well into the f9s perhaps self selects you as someone who doesn't just take massive risks.

It's a lot more dangerous for Dave Mac to take a sketchy fall onto a slab than some loon who doesn't depend on his body for work and isn't a pro climber. Perhaps the future of really bold Trad therefore naturally precludes pros?

I think you have a point here. There are a bunch of hobbyist 9a+ climbers in Spain and France so maybe we will see some amazing solos from some of them.

Alex Huber did not start to solo until he lost interest in keeping his sport climbing level up to scratch.

OTOH Fish it is reputedly much less secure climbing in general.

I have done neither, and the approach (among other things) to Marmolada does not strike my fancy, but everyone I know who has done The Fish underlines just how insecure the climbing is.

But as there are no steel perma-draws attached to stainless 12 mm bolts on the crux pitch of the Fish it might be difficult to objectively compare the actual difficulty to that of the boulder pitch on Free rider. It might well be that the actual grade of Freerider's crux pitch is much higher.

One guy that I know freely admited to hanging from gear while crying tears of fear on the crux pitch of the Fish.