[Bonjoy]

Why do people refer to 'credit card sized holds'?! Even on a slab a hold that small is too small to use for either hands or feet.

[SA Chris]

spragging a hold the size of an atom (polished 'n' all) is way more accurate.

[Fiend]

Fantastic effort but I don’t understand all the soul searching when trying to stick the E grade on. The Uk tech grade is useless. Just give it fr8b+ R/X and we all know where we are.

Yeah. Although instead of the R/X weirdness we could just give it an overall grade that sums up the challenge including boldness. Maybe E11 or something?? And he's already suggested fr8b+ E11, maybe just stick a little extra hint of what the crux is and put it in a logical order, say E11 7a (8b+). 

I thought it was pretty interesting actually.

Me too. Good to see the amount of detail behind it. Although if moose doesn't like the Ondra performance machine, God knows what he'll make of this. The main conclusions I took from it were that having good supportive people around you (paid or otherwise) and having good mental health were both pretty fucking critical 

Am I being overly cynical to think preserving E grades is good for the British ego in a world where 8b+ just isn't very hard any more and is being climbed on scary / run out routes abroad relatively commonly without much fuss?

Yes. It's a grading system that has been around, and refined, for many decades and is exactly what almost all the target audience (and probably likely interested parties) are familiar with - and yes it does seem to work for a grubby 40' bit of rock in Derbyshire and a grubby 40' bit of rock in Cumbria (if a climber can grasp that there's a difference between a 1 move Font 7C and a 10 move Font 7C but both deserve the grade for different reasons, they can hopefully grasp the same with E-whatever). It's useful and interesting information in the context that it's used in, and I'm not sure there's a need to bring ego in as most Brits are hopefully aware of hard trad things being done abroad, nor a need for a drastic switch to 8b+ R/X given that covid has stifled incoming burners-off the last two years and no doubt Greta will stifle them in coming years.

[Bradders]

Why do people refer to 'credit card sized holds'?! Even on a slab a hold that small is too small to use for either hands or feet.

Glad it's not just me that wondered. Although I thought it might be something like the holds are credit card sized in terms of the length of the edge, not the depth?

If he is referring to depth though then it's clearly nonsense.

[Ross Barker]

"Hyperbole"

Exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally.

[duncan]

... the Impact day wall is about 40ft high on the side of a bit of a gully. ... I just thought it was deeply underwhelming, Scafell it ain't.

The meat of the hard routes on East Buttress is mostly quite short too: Welcome to the Cruel World and Another Lonely Day have 40' or so of difficult climbing. I guess it’s hard to find rock with hard climbing that goes on for any length in the UK (there are some unclimbed examples in Pembroke...).

The main conclusions I took from it were that having good supportive people around you (paid or otherwise) and having good mental health were both pretty fucking critical 

The detail was interesting to a climbing nerd like me... and yet I couldn't help read it as a justification for employing a coach (like Neil for example!). I am a bad person.



I feel like this could be a poll but who do we think will nip in for the second ascent?

1. Steve Maclure, who will agree with everything Neil says.
2. Dave Macleod, who will praise the quality whilst subtly suggesting it’s two grades easier than Echo Wall.
3. Alex Megos, who will downgrade it to 8b R/X.
4. Sonnie Trotter flew over but was kicked out of the country before he could attempt it after being caught bivvying in the National Trust car park.
5. Cumberland Sausage

[SA Chris]

6. Caff (unless Cumberland Sausage is a nickname for Caff I'm unaware of).

[Fiend]

Top poll Duncan and ofc I'm voting for the sausage.

[petejh]

Franco Cookson, confirming H10.

[Nike Air]

I went up to Iron Crag last year to take a look at the new E10.
I didn't think the added finish to if six was nine really added that much. I flashed that section on top rope in Baltic conditions and thought it felt French 7a+. If you can get up if six was nine you won't be falling off this as there is a hands off knee bar between them.
ISWN seems to have changed since the two daves did it. In the middle there is now a good jug side pull to shake out on. Before according to the footage that was a slopey boss and didn't look restful at all. To me it seemed a block had fallen out to reveal a less sustained sequence.
The hype surrounding this new thing just didn't seem right and I'm gradually seeing a trend.

The climbing itself is very good but this designer danger seems hollow to me. I used to be well into it but as I've got older with a different perspective I can see it for what it is.
Gear in these routes is often not as bad as made out, "chop route" is mentioned in news reports but I can't help but thinking this is to create a wow.

Also comparing anything to equilibrium has issues, from what I remember it felt like a font 7C+ boulder problem that was condition dependant and knacky.

The grading scale might go a bit wonky if we all grade on what our mates think of routes they have done but without us repeating them ourselves. Especially neighboring routes on the same crag or in the area.

I'm confident that those in the know will appreciate the discovery of new lines and cool moves but it's the ones who are wowed that I feel sorry for, they get a warped perspective of difficulty, danger and who's in it together to make a buck out of climbing by using the media.

As mentioned the promo and hype seem to be a business model and in this day and age when climbing can be a job its going to just be this way.

[cheque]

Why do people refer to 'credit card sized holds'?! Even on a slab a hold that small is too small to use for either hands or feet.

Glad it's not just me that wondered. Although I thought it might be something like the holds are credit card sized in terms of the length of the edge, not the depth?

If the holds are 9cm x 6cm flatties I might have a go myself. 

Americans refer to “dime edges” which I always assumed meant about the thickness of a 50p. Only when I went over there did I discover a dime is even thinner than a 5p and realise it was more of a figure of speech. I guess “credit card sized” is more of an international version. I’ll let someone else make the obvious contactless joke. 

[Footwork]

I'm confident that those in the know will appreciate the discovery of new lines and cool moves but it's the ones who are wowed that I feel sorry for, they get a warped perspective of difficulty, danger and who's in it together to make a buck out of climbing by using the media.

As mentioned the promo and hype seem to be a business model and in this day and age when climbing can be a job its going to just be this way.

The article says "the trad climbing equivalent to an Olympic gold" - we all know what we thought about the Olympic medalling points system which was, well... errr  I do see the point he's trying to make (I think) which is achieving the mind set of I can't possibly lose. Because otherwise comparing a climb to an Olympic gold is stupid.

Never forget

To be the best, you must show the best, I am the best

Agree with trying to hype up the danger for those not in the know - comments like "We went for a single 8.5mm, the thinnest rope you can use with a Petzl GriGri+" Have you seen Conor's half rope, you're bolloxed if your belayer turns up with a PETZL GRI GRI PLUS. Might as well solo the route. Unless you have any other belay device for trad climbing.

Do I need to get an equipment consultant to pimp my rack too?

[dunnyg]

You would have to buy one first...

I found a green hex the other day on an unrecorded limestone crag, born from the finest Dales grey stuff, it will lead anyone who racks it to the headspace of Christiano Ronaldo, and let even your fine self onsight 2 grades harder than your best lime trad lead. Yours for only £50. I will chuck in the screwgate I found with it for free, if you name drop me on insta.

[Franco]

Fantastic effort but I don’t understand all the soul searching when trying to stick the E grade on. The Uk tech grade is useless. Just give it fr8b+ R/X and we all know where we are.

Am I being overly cynical to think preserving E grades is good for the British ego in a world where 8b+ just isn't very hard any more and is being climbed on scary / run out routes abroad relatively commonly without much fuss?

Have we learned nothing from Team America rinsing all the hardest grit routes in one season, or Babsi and the others ticking Pembroke in a few short weeks? 

I think people deliberately confuse pokey routes with very dangerous routes. There's a world of difference between an 8b with a bit of a slammy fall and a death 8b, especially if the climbing is really insecure. There really isn't much of the latter anywhere.

[grimer]

Good effort Neil.

Great comments everyone. Much crack.

[Fultonius]

Good effort Neil.

Great comments everyone. Much crack.

I reckon a podcast in the style of TAPS over on the Enormocast, with Caff, Fiend and Franco would be amazing....

[grimer]

go for it.

[Will Hunt]

Can we stage an intervention whereby Steve Mac and Gresh are allowed to continue new routing but aren't allowed to name the routes?
Fixation, Wall of GreatNess, fucking Lexicon. The hardest route in the Lakes (inevitable downgrade pending) is called fucking Lexicon.

[Bonjoy]

"Hyperbole"

Exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally.

Yes it's presumably hyperbole. It just seems incongruous in an otherwise very factual analytical piece of writing, to the point that a casual/non-climber reader might take it at face value.

[andy popp]

"Hyperbole"

Exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally.

Yes it's presumably hyperbole. It just seems incongruous in an otherwise very factual analytical piece of writing, to the point that a casual/non-climber reader might take it at face value.

For all the sheen of rationality and factuality, I found the whole piece just incredibly hyperbolic - and basically one long advertorial.

[Fultonius]

"Hyperbole"

Exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally.

Yes it's presumably hyperbole. It just seems incongruous in an otherwise very factual analytical piece of writing, to the point that a casual/non-climber reader might take it at face value.

For all the sheen of rationality and factuality, I found the whole piece just incredibly hyperbolic - and basically one long advertorial.

I didn't make it to the end, it was just one massive fucking ego wank with honourable mentions for his entourage/fluffers.

[ali k]

I think people deliberately confuse pokey routes with very dangerous routes. There's a world of difference between an 8b with a bit of a slammy fall and a death 8b, especially if the climbing is really insecure. There really isn't much of the latter anywhere.

Not sure people are deliberately confusing anything, and I’m not convinced there’s that much of a clear divide to be honest. A long slammy fall can go disastrously wrong. And a supposed ‘death’ route could have a lucky outcome. And there’s plenty of grey in between. I’ve done bolted ‘sport’ routes which are far more dangerous than a lot of hard(ish) trad. That’s not uncommon outside of the UK.

IIRC Dave Mac fell onto that RP on Rhapsody and almost broke it - which would have turned it from a long but safe fall into possible death. How can you grade precisely for something like that? Why even bother, if it takes so much effort and thought to try and pin it down - especially when history has shown so often that the next person will have a different experience on it? I guess the answer is simple - look at the comments on UKC and it’s mainly just fascination with the ‘E11’ badge.

[SA Chris]

Parthian Shot's fall was safe until it wasn't...

[ali k]

Parthian Shot's fall was safe until it wasn't...

Exactly. That went from “death on a stick” to “safe as houses” to…”oh shit the flake broke”.

[Yossarian]

Neil is obvs super keen and syked, but I agree about that article. I wonder if the One Show received a similarly worded press release?

It strikes me that a lot of us are of the age at which we remember new hard routes being talked about in hushed tones, maybe having heard a story about something outrageous that John Redhead had done, or someone had had talked to x and seen y trying something super hard and scary. The less you knew about it the more amazing it sounded. Moat of these things were like works of art - mysteries to gaze up at or dream about. And even when you had more detail, like Johnny's account of the Indian Face — that actually ramped up the awesomeness.

That article seemed to have almost nothing about feeling, and everything about doing. It was like getting a one-on-one with Francis Bacon to talk about Painting (1946) and getting a monologue about what brand of spoon he used to mix his paint with.