[wasbeen]

I think Malc's point is similar, an elite athlete making absolute strength gains in their late 40s/50s has either massively underperformed to an inexplicable degree for 30 years... or they're on gear. If one thinks that can be done naturally without gear... no.

I'm not entirely clear how much of this conversation is merely hypothetical and how much of it relates to Gresham in particular, but if the latter - is he "elite" in strength terms? As he says in the IG post below, things that represent major milestones for him are the sorts of things "the youth" warm up on....

https://www.instagram.com/p/CTHcr27DAO_/?utm_medium=share_sheet

He's way better and way stronger than me and all that, so this is absolutely not intending to do down his abilities - but there's "making strength gains as an elite athlete in your 50s" and there's "getting to hang the bm2k slot one armed", and I honestly have no idea whether the latter is still in the realm of elite performance that means it is subject to biological constraints in the way the former is.

I think in Neil's case, much of the improvement has come from getting lighter rather than from getting stronger.

[Wellsy]

I think Malc's point is similar, an elite athlete making absolute strength gains in their late 40s/50s has either massively underperformed to an inexplicable degree for 30 years... or they're on gear. If one thinks that can be done naturally without gear... no.

I'm not entirely clear how much of this conversation is merely hypothetical and how much of it relates to Gresham in particular, but if the latter - is he "elite" in strength terms? As he says in the IG post below, things that represent major milestones for him are the sorts of things "the youth" warm up on....

https://www.instagram.com/p/CTHcr27DAO_/?utm_medium=share_sheet

He's way better and way stronger than me and all that, so this is absolutely not intending to do down his abilities - but there's "making strength gains as an elite athlete in your 50s" and there's "getting to hang the bm2k slot one armed", and I honestly have no idea whether the latter is still in the realm of elite performance that means it is subject to biological constraints in the way the former is.

Relative though isn't it. Strength now compared to strength then. I think Malc's point is;

1) Climbed and trained since he was a teenager.

2) Climbed and trained professionally for like, 30 years.

3) Had made personal strength all time PBs in his 50s

How could that happen? Either he's been training really badly for all that time, like incomprehensible so, or he's been training well and is dedicated (and he totally is, this is Neil Gresham) and is superhumanly gifted in his hormones, or he's found a way to make absolute strength gains in later life after decades of his job to literally be training hard. And there is only one known way to do that.

Incidentally the argument of "teenagers learn to do this as a warm up" to me says well there is only one known way to give you the hormones of a teenager when you are 50.

[Fiend]

"Go on a radical and potentially harmful diet and climb E11" is a strong message for the kids of today 

I wonder if Malc will cave in and ask the direct question: "Neil Gresham, did you take any steroids or similar performance enhancing substances as part of your recent training to do Lexicon??". And then can get a simple yes / no answer....

[36chambers]

https://www.instagram.com/p/CTHcr27DAO_/?utm_medium=share_sheet

Looks like Inspector Malc already had his suspicions when that clip was posted. From the comments: 

"That’s crazy, most guys max out about 30! You’re continuing to get stronger towards 50! What’s the secret?"

[jakk]

I think Malc's point is similar, an elite athlete making absolute strength gains in their late 40s/50s has either massively underperformed to an inexplicable degree for 30 years... or they're on gear. If one thinks that can be done naturally without gear... no.

I'm not entirely clear how much of this conversation is merely hypothetical and how much of it relates to Gresham in particular, but if the latter - is he "elite" in strength terms? As he says in the IG post below, things that represent major milestones for him are the sorts of things "the youth" warm up on....

https://www.instagram.com/p/CTHcr27DAO_/?utm_medium=share_sheet

He's way better and way stronger than me and all that, so this is absolutely not intending to do down his abilities - but there's "making strength gains as an elite athlete in your 50s" and there's "getting to hang the bm2k slot one armed", and I honestly have no idea whether the latter is still in the realm of elite performance that means it is subject to biological constraints in the way the former is.

I think in Neil's case, much of the improvement has come from getting lighter rather than from getting stronger.

I climbed with him quite a bit about 6ish years ago before he moved up north, and I think his approach to nutrition has improved massively in the last few years.
I feel like until recently his sport climbing tactics were still a bit back in the 90s, which makes sense since he basically took a 15 year break to do trad and ice.

So specifically, back then he was still doing the 90s diet (stop eating totally before a trip to drop 5kg) which made him light, but doesn't really make you sustainably strong. Nowadays he has found a diet that he can periodise in and out of, and lets him be both light and strong in those performance periods, then back out of for training.

As for strength, his job has always been to make others strong, but again, he himself was a trad climber, he basically took a long break from training strength for sport of bouldering, so it's not like he hit his genetic potential at 30. So he knows how, but never really hit his peak until the last few years.

Also, this is ~8b+ trad, so easier moves than his 8c+ a couple of years ago. The hardest part here is obviously combining it with the headgame, especially when you consider his history of nasty trad falls and now being 50 with kids.

I feel like the ukc post actually explains pretty well how all these factors came together, with lots of small things adding up, and lots of help from a wide range of other people to focus on each discrete piece necessary for the send.

[Johnny Brown]

but there's "making strength gains as an elite athlete in your 50s"

I think a lot of the cynicism stems not from doubt of the above, but the reality of translating that into performance on rock, especially facing a >20m fall at your limit in your 50's, and then grading based on a not that similar route you did 20 years ago and remembering it feeling easier, despite the fact that back then you did a lot more actual climbing and a lot less seeking marginal training gains.

Malc's comment seems to be more of a reflection of his own preoccupations. Neil wrote the same stuff about his Malham 8c+ a few years back, he has a training business to promote and if you take Xeno's example you can make marginal gains forever without actually getting anywhere.

[roddersm]

"Go on a radical and potentially harmful diet and climb E11" is a strong message for the kids of today 

I wonder if Malc will cave in and ask the direct question: "Neil Gresham, did you take any steroids or similar performance enhancing substances as part of your recent training to do Lexicon??". And then can get a simple yes / no answer....

He more or less has in this thread - https://www.instagram.com/p/CUCjto8oZ6K/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

If you’re not highly trained then you can improve whatever your age. If you’ve been training since the 1980’s and expect improvements into your 50’s then you may need to resort to keto dieting, recruitment training, or more realisticaly steroid/ growth hormones

[Wellsy]

A better question would be if he is, do we really care that much.

[Danny]

A lot of this 'roid speculation comes across as yet more mud slinging.

Gresham's strength gains are hardly outlandishly elite. He's been training for 30 years, but these one armed max hangs haven't been around for nearly so long as a training staple. Anyone who does them regularly will know how a few kg can make all the difference, and weight is pretty easy to manipulate if you're keen, even in your 50s.

At the end of the day, one arming a 20 mm edge ain't that hard in the grand scheme of elites. And it's not like Lexicon is cutting edge sport grade wise, even for a trad route, even compared to Gresham's own PB. Eric Horst recently one armed the lattice rung for the first time, and he's been training since the Neolithic. I'm not saying it's out of the realms of possiblity that Gresham is on PEDs, but equally, you could well believe that someone who has loads of time to focus on training—as he does—could make some quite modest gains while on a specific mission to climb a project. A project which many on here seem to think is a bit wank and likely overgraded.

[User deactivated.]

Nibile: Usyk KO 11 for my money.

Regarding strength improvements in later years, has anyone considered prescribed TRT rather than outright steroid use? That's one way to get back 21 year old T levels whilst remaining legal!

I have a couple of friends involved in boxing at a high level and they reckon everyone is maxing out TRT doses to the limit of what is permissible, using non synthetic testosterone so they don't even need a script and TUE.

Disclaimer: none of this is related towards gresh or any climber in particular.

[roddersm]

Nibile: Usyk KO 11 for my money.

Regarding strength improvements in later years, has anyone considered prescribed TRT rather than outright steroid use? That's one way to get back 21 year old T levels whilst remaining legal!

I have a couple of friends involved in boxing at a high level and they reckon everyone is maxing out TRT doses to the limit of what is permissible, using non synthetic testosterone so they don't even need a script and TUE.

Disclaimer: none of this is related towards gresh or any climber in particular.

But that is the crux of the issue, no? If someone is using synthetic testosterone, unless due to some medical condition, it is pretty disingenuous to promote their performance gains /longevity and then attribute them entirely to improved training methods and diet...
 

[webbo]

So climber A climbs a new 9B which is then repeated by climber B. Climber A then admits to using PED’s in order get up the route. Who is credited with the first ascent.
In other sports records are removed if an athlete is using PED’s.

[User deactivated.]

Nibile: Usyk KO 11 for my money.

Regarding strength improvements in later years, has anyone considered prescribed TRT rather than outright steroid use? That's one way to get back 21 year old T levels whilst remaining legal!

I have a couple of friends involved in boxing at a high level and they reckon everyone is maxing out TRT doses to the limit of what is permissible, using non synthetic testosterone so they don't even need a script and TUE.

Disclaimer: none of this is related towards gresh or any climber in particular.

But that is the crux of the issue, no? If someone is using synthetic testosterone, unless due to some medical condition, it is pretty disingenuous to promote their performance gains /longevity and then attribute them entirely to improved training methods and diet...
 

I agree, but even if it is for a medical reason it could still explain someone improving like a 21 year old in their 50's.

[Banana finger]

I love the idea of Gresham having to post a picture of his cock and balls with todays newspaper and an egg for scale

[roddersm]

So climber A climbs a new 9B which is then repeated by climber B. Climber A then admits to using PED’s in order get up the route. Who is credited with the first ascent.
In other sports records are removed if an athlete is using PED’s.

Well imo Climber A is still the first ascensionist but I guess sponsors/climbing community/media etc. can form their opinion on what was the most impressive performance.

I don't see how it is much different to other aspects that factor into making an ascent like tactics, there is an expectation that people are being honest..   

[Neil F]

My seconds were out of sight, and way down the wall as I look the ropes in, and I was amazed to see the middle marker just as the rope came tight.  Yep, the massive 37m 2nd pitch of Redshift is actually 25m…

Neil

Sure they're not 60s?

Yep - definitely a pair of 50s (the same pair I've been climbing on for the last few years)

This does remind me that what has been missing from the coverage of this route is the sort of sober analysis and depth of context we used to get in Rock Notes.

  

[petejh]

https://www.instagram.com/p/CTHcr27DAO_/?utm_medium=share_sheet

Looks like Inspector Malc already had his suspicions when that clip was posted. From the comments: 

"That’s crazy, most guys max out about 30! You’re continuing to get stronger towards 50! What’s the secret?"

Haven’t caught up on the rest of thread so apologies if already mentioned.
But on this clip ^ …  I don’t get the fuss? Why is Malc picking up on this as an example of anything remarkable? I can do a one armer on the bm2k slot - for 5 secs not 10 as per Gresh in that clip. I’m 46. I’m not elite.  Unless I’m mistaken and I’m brilliant. Which I’m not.

As far as suggesting steroid use it’s a poor example as finger strength isn’t much to do with ‘being strong’ in the traditional sense of packing on muscle. Finger tendons get strong very slowly and it’s entirely unremarkable for someone in their late 40s / early 50s to be able to do what Gresham is in that clip.

[Bonjoy]

This does rather come across as something of a social media ducking stool. The route must be wildly overgraded, or Gresh must be on roids. Either way burn the witch.

[petejh]

It seems that way.

When the route was originally reported with the typical Gresham media machine fanfare and hyperbole I admit I instinctively rolled my eyes and my first thought was that someone who actually *is* an elite climber - come off it Gresham isn’t, he’s an elite self promoter - to eventually repeat the route and proclaim it soft or a downgrade.

But the shit being flung about potential steroid use seems pretty off to me. Going to have to come up with some far more concrete justification than doing a one-armer or looking lean and ripped in mid-life. Poor show.

[Fiend]

He more or less has in this thread - https://www.instagram.com/p/CUCjto8oZ6K/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

Yup that's exactly my point, he HASN'T asked directly.

Witchhunt, smitchhunt, willhunt, whatever. Another climber has publicly dropped pretty strong hints, that's what this all stems from. The speculation and rubbernecking on here is actually errring towards the side that such hints are unjustified and baseless, ergo no hunt to be had. And with that jolly jaunt on the go we've all forgotten about potential overgrading (which seemed to be limited to a few bah humbugs anyway)...

[AJM]

Relative though isn't it. Strength now compared to strength then. I think Malc's point is;

1) Climbed and trained since he was a teenager.

2) Climbed and trained professionally for like, 30 years.

3) Had made personal strength all time PBs in his 50s

How could that happen? Either he's been training really badly for all that time, like incomprehensible so, or he's been training well and is dedicated (and he totally is, this is Neil Gresham) and is superhumanly gifted in his hormones, or he's found a way to make absolute strength gains in later life after decades of his job to literally be training hard. And there is only one known way to do that.

Incidentally the argument of "teenagers learn to do this as a warm up" to me says well there is only one known way to give you the hormones of a teenager when you are 50.

I really don't think it's as simple as saying "it's all relative". There's some element of absolute to it. If nothing else, doesn't your argument imply that McClure (9b p.b. at c47?) is probably using? That's the most immediate example I can think of but if we're saying that anyone whose been training for a while and is still getting stronger after 35 or 40 is probably taking steroids then that must be tarring hundreds if not thousands of climbers?

It feels far simpler and more likely that there's a lot of people who got quite good at climbing by climbing lots and not by ever getting that brute strong and whilst carrying various inefficiencies in training or diet (as others with direct experience have noted w.r.t the latter) that mean that they never really maxed out their strength when younger and therefore have more potential to make strength improvements as they get older. To be fair, anyone who wasn't solely training as a boulderer when younger probably had inefficient training from the perspective of maximising brute strength gains since they were "wasting" time getting fit.

Anyway, as others are saying, this is coming across as a bit of a bullshit witch-hunt. I don't know if Malc has personal history with Gresham, or whether his background in being extremely strong means he's looking at this through a very specific pure strength focused lens (when you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail and all that), but this feels like pretty weak stuff.

[Wellsy]

I can totally see where you are coming from. There is a spectrum from "entirely clean" to "Olympic Weightlifting" in terms of how juiced a sport is. I assume every single competitive weightlifter who isn't 100% shit is doping. Same with cycling. Bit less with running but still like yeah probably. I'm not sure where I sit with climbing.

There's a few reasons why Neil Gresham could be posting raw feats of strength PBs at his age. Malc thinks it's cos he's juicing. I'm not saying he is but if it turns out he was I'd not be that surprised.

Anyway I don't want to witch hunt him. If he is i don't care and it doesn't invalidate his success imo.

[roddersm]

[Anyway, as others are saying, this is coming across as a bit of a bullshit witch-hunt. I don't know if Malc has personal history with Gresham, or whether his background in being extremely strong means he's looking at this through a very specific pure strength focused lens (when you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail and all that), but this feels like pretty weak stuff.

I agree, although I think the point about use of PEDs/TRT and the ethics around it in climbing is valid, if he has something specific on Gresham he should share it, otherwise it comes across petty and bit nasty to single him out publicly like this....

[Will Hunt]

He more or less has in this thread - https://www.instagram.com/p/CUCjto8oZ6K/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

Yup that's exactly my point, he HASN'T asked directly.

Witchhunt, smitchhunt, willhunt, whatever. Another climber has publicly dropped pretty strong hints, that's what this all stems from. The speculation and rubbernecking on here is actually errring towards the side that such hints are unjustified and baseless, ergo no hunt to be had. And with that jolly jaunt on the go we've all forgotten about potential overgrading (which seemed to be limited to a few bah humbugs anyway)...

Don't bring me into this! Malc was slagging some bloke for doing something at Dumby wrong wasn't he? He just sounds a bit bitter. Perhaps he's bought too much into the coaching business' marketing of "Neil's been training like a bastard for 30 years" which probably ought to be caveated to say that he went off to be a trad dad for 15 of those.

[Rocksteady]

Malc is famous for being strong (the strongest?) and isn't as strong as he used to be.

Gresh is famous for...what? In terms of climbing it's probably being early repeater of Indian Face? And Equilibrium? Main requirement for those is headgame not steel fingers.
Then otherwise it seems to me Gresh is the first person I'm aware of who figured out how to make a living from climbing without being a cutting edge climber. I.e. coach, magazine articles on training, big publicity of his ascents in climbing media, focus on winter routes because there's more equipment needed so better sponsorship potential etc. etc.
I can see how that creates a lot of jealousy and vitriol from people who are a lot stronger with more significant climbing achievements but don't have the following or make the same money from it. So also creates motivation for hacking Gresh down.

In terms of Gresh's coaching, in the past it's always been heavily movement based. I'm sure he's done a lot of fingerboarding but the training programmes now are massively different even from when I started climbing in 2007-2008. The idea that you do everything on 20mm edge half-crimps is pretty new I think, maybe only since the evidence from Eva Lopez on training effect being better from larger holds with weights than training on smaller holds, repeaters etc? And has taken a while to crossover into effective programmes.

Anyway that's a really long way of saying that to my mind Gresh's finger strength improvements are eminently feasible without roids. Simplest explanation is he's got better at that sort of specific training. And that helps maintain a reasonable level of climbing ability, especially with the extreme levels of preparation he's clearly done to climb this route.