[abarro81]

Off topic, but Barrows I had a dream last night that you decked off a route trying to clip the 3rd or 4th bolt after skipping the first few. It was a nasty fall onto a steep rocky landing and I think you might have died. Can you confirm?

I can neither confirm nor deny that you had such a dream, but I can confirm that I own a very long clipstick and nowadays have a very low tolerance to being bold, making this seem unlikely in real life. Are you sure I didn't just say take, moan about hard clips being shit, moan about my fingers and then lower off and sulk for a while? Sounds more realistic...

Cheetham or Varian?

The former.

On grading

I get this but I can't help being a little cynical as to Neil's grading. See my previous comment.

... I'd have fewer qualms with [Neil's grading] if Neil didn't have a history of it: see Nike's comments (which have been echoed by others) and, e.g., https://www.frcc.co.uk/routes/fearless/

That's only off by 1 grade right? From my very limited experience of FAs I feel like being 1 grade off isn't a big deal, guessing how hard other people will find things is nails! From my experience of Gresh's sport grades - Freakshow he gave 8c, I thought bottom-end 8c but found an extra knee; Premonition he gave 8b+ and I thought middle of that grade; Kilnsey proj he guessed quite a bit harder than it turned out to be, but then its easy to miss a sequence swinging around on new terrain in a roof...

[Wellsy]

https://www.instagram.com/p/CT6wjIRoVYy/?utm_medium=copy_link

Dave Macleod is on it!!

Downgrade imminent??

  

I really hope Dave slags it. Don't let us down, Dave.

Show us on the fingerboard where Gresh hurt you, Will

[Tony]

On grading

I get this but I can't help being a little cynical as to Neil's grading. See my previous comment.

... I'd have fewer qualms with [Neil's grading] if Neil didn't have a history of it: see Nike's comments (which have been echoed by others) and, e.g., https://www.frcc.co.uk/routes/fearless/

That's only off by 1 grade right? From my very limited experience of FAs I feel like being 1 grade off isn't a big deal, guessing how hard other people will find things is nails! From my experience of Gresh's sport grades - Freakshow he gave 8c, I thought bottom-end 8c but found an extra knee; Premonition he gave 8b+ and I thought middle of that grade; Kilnsey proj he guessed quite a bit harder than it turned out to be, but then its easy to miss a sequence swinging around on new terrain in a roof...

That would be fine if your and my examples suggested random variation rather than systematic bias...

[Edited for readability]

[Bonjoy]

I think if you took an average of hard routes put up in the last 10-15 years, assuming no physical change (hold loss/gain), grades more often go down than up. This isn't surprising really, for all the obvious reasons - new beta/gear is found; theoretical danger factors become less theoretical (see Steve's fall of Lexicon and Seb's falls on Parthian); the FAer starts from a position of ignorance, the repeater starts from a position of knowledge; and the not insignificant fact that downgrades are quickly accepted, whereas confirmation and upgrade votes seem to count for less in the peanut gallery.
So it seems unfair to me to imply deliberate overgrading or even a poor ability to grade if an ascensionist's routes on average go down in grade. The alternative is to deliberately under-grade in expectation that you've missed some beta or whatever. I'd rather FAer just gave their honest best guess. It's pretty shit that as a community we treat downgrading someone else's climb as some sort of point scoring one-upmanship shit throwing exercise.

[remus]

I think if you took an average of hard routes put up in the last 10-15 years, assuming no physical change (hold loss/gain), grades more often go down than up. This isn't surprising really, for all the obvious reasons - new beta/gear is found; theoretical danger factors become less theoretical (see Steve's fall of Lexicon and Seb's falls on Parthian); the FAer starts from a position of ignorance, the repeater starts from a position of knowledge; and the not insignificant fact that downgrades are quickly accepted, whereas confirmation and upgrade votes seem to count for less in the peanut gallery.
So it seems unfair to me to imply deliberate overgrading or even a poor ability to grade if an ascensionist's routes on average go down in grade. The alternative is to deliberately under-grade in expectation that you've missed some beta or whatever. I'd rather FAer just gave their honest best guess. It's pretty shit that as a community we treat downgrading someone else's climb as some sort of point scoring one-upmanship shit throwing exercise.

Word.

[Tony]

In a word: bullshit.

Birkett and DaveMac and even, largely, John Dunne managed pretty well.

How about a thread on the demonisation of public critical review of well-known climbers' new routes...

[Bonjoy]

Are you calling deliberate overgrading, or just poor ability to grade?

[IanP]

An 'interesting' question from my perspective is around what hard trad grades mean. 

I tend to start from a fairly simplistic perspective aligning very well protected trad routes to a equivalent sport grade (and if your old enough to remember trad grades that were given sport grades, see Extreme Rock), starting from aroound 8a/8a+ for E7.  This would mean E9 covers 8c/+ and E10 9a/+ then E11 would be 9b/+.   Obviously the climbing isn't necessarily as hard on trad routes due to boldness/danger but if the grade means something then surely it must be a attempt to suggest some sort of way an equivalance between the physically hard and less hard but bolder.

Taking this position would mean that E10 is a pretty wide grade and matching in diffculty near to the very top end of UK climbing on the sport side with only 1 route in the UK and 2 climbers who have done anything harder.   This tends to make me feel that E11 is a pretty big number and it is ok to question it, while at the same time not wanting to take anything away from what looks to be an really impressive effort.   

[petejh]

The process of grading trad routes shouldn't be that difficult. Certainly not as hard you make it out Bonjoy. There are only really two important variables to consider:
sport grade - any regular climber should be should be able to accurately judge this to within 2 grades.
danger - given the four options below someone should be able to judge this to within 2 options. When climbs aren't getting put up onsight/ground-up then danger isn't *that* theoretical. Uncertainties around protection, fall distances, severity of falls and other oddities can be quite easily cleared up.

How is the below so complicated to use as a guide:

For averagely safe routes
5 - 5+  E1
6a-6a+ E2 
6b-6b+ E3
6c-6c+ E4
7a-7a+ E5
7b-7b+ E6
7c-7c+ E7
8a-8a+ E8
8b-8b+ E9
8c-8c+ E10
9a-9a+ E11
9b-9b+ E12

Bold/scary/long runouts but not exceptionally dangerous  +1 E-grade
Exceptionally dangerous  +2 E-grades
Exceptionally safe  -1 E-grade


Obviously in a fair-minded world no-one would be expected to get it right every time. But in a fair-minded world no-one would be expected to get it wrong very much either, especially someone who climbs *a lot* and in fact does it for a living. If someone *is* getting it wrong and is also incentivised to pump their achievements, because for e.g. they've chosen to make a business out of being well-known for climbing and training, then questions are naturally going to get asked. It shouldn't be surprising or seen as 'shit flinging'. See 'demonisation of public critical review'.
 

[abarro81]

For averagely safe routes
5 - 5+  E1
6a-6a+ E2 
6b-6b+ E3
6c-6c+ E4
7a-7a+ E5
7b-7b+ E6
7c-7c+ E7
8a-8a+ E8
8b-8b+ E9
8c-8c+ E10
9a-9a+ E11
9b-9b+ E12

Bold/scary/long runouts but not exceptionally dangerous  +1 E-grade
Exceptionally dangerous  +2 E-grades
Exceptionally safe  -1 E-grade

Is this actually consensus, or just your extrapolation to what you think the top end of the scale "should" mean? I've not got enough experience to know if it works at the top end (but it looks like plenty of classic E5s should prob be E4 from what I remember back when I used to trad climb more)

[Franco]

The process of grading trad routes shouldn't be that difficult. Certainly not as hard you make it out Bonjoy. There are only really two important variables to consider:
sport grade - any regular climber should be should be able to accurately judge this to within 2 grades.
danger - given the four options below someone should be able to judge this to within 2 options. When climbs aren't getting put up onsight/ground-up then danger isn't *that* theoretical. Uncertainties around protection, fall distances, severity of falls and other oddities can be quite easily cleared up.

How is the below so complicated to use as a guide:

For averagely safe routes
5 - 5+  E1
6a-6a+ E2 
6b-6b+ E3
6c-6c+ E4
7a-7a+ E5
7b-7b+ E6
7c-7c+ E7
8a-8a+ E8
8b-8b+ E9
8c-8c+ E10
9a-9a+ E11
9b-9b+ E12

Bold/scary/long runouts but not exceptionally dangerous  +1 E-grade
Exceptionally dangerous  +2 E-grades
Exceptionally safe  -1 E-grade


Obviously in a fair-minded world no-one would be expected to get it right every time. But in a fair-minded world no-one would be expected to get it wrong very much either, especially someone who climbs *a lot* and in fact does it for a living. If someone *is* getting it wrong and is also incentivised to pump their achievements, because for e.g. they've chosen to make a business out of being well-known for climbing and training, then questions are naturally going to get asked. It shouldn't be surprising or seen as 'shit flinging'. See 'demonisation of public critical review'.

I think you've got that roughly right for safe routes. I think there are extra E points for super extreme danger and short/blind/slippy routes also. Taking away protection from a safish F8a will make it harder than making it a higher French grade.

Ultimately the E grades should be Ground Up grades, with E8 being towards the top of what the best people can do, E9 being properly cutting edge and E10 being probably slightly beyond the possibilities of what's possible (i.e. close to F9a if it's really safe). E11 should be well near impossible for anyone to climb ground up and E12 beyond comprehension.

That's just my take on it. You can't have a system down the line where any 8c climber from limestone can just rock up, feeling a bit bold and ground up an E10 at Pembroke etc, where there are still loads of E8s that are nigh on impossible on outcrops or wherever. It's a subjective system, so as the size of the cohorts of people able to climb certain routes go up and down, so too will the grades of those routes.



 

[Paul B]

sport grade - any regular climber should be should be able to accurately judge this to within 2 grades.

Sport grades on trad routes confuse me in the fact that in many circumstances after reading about whatever grade trad route with a sport route attached, seeing ascensionists (and this isn't pointed at Neil btw) at a sport crag, you'd expect to be watching a snuff film in the making if the grades were accurate (i.e. if the route was 8b, I wouldn't be confident in them not falling off with bolts, let alone above horrendous gear). I'm aware that Kilnsey isn't exactly technical wall climbing and that plays a part but even so, when considering the margin in which I'd want to be 'above' the climbing when you're risking your legs (or worse) it often doesn't add up.

[petejh]

I think you've got that roughly right for safe routes. I think there are extra E points for super extreme danger and short/blind/slippy routes also. Taking away protection from a safish F8a will make it harder than making it a higher French grade. 

Am I the only one who can see this bit that I've bolded?:

Averagely safe routes
5 - 5+  E1
6a-6a+ E2
6b-6b+ E3
6c-6c+ E4
7a-7a+ E5
7b-7b+ E6
7c-7c+ E7
8a-8a+ E8
8b-8b+ E9
8c-8c+ E10
9a-9a+ E11
9b-9b+ E12

Bold/scary/long runouts but not exceptionally dangerous  +1 E-grade
Exceptionally dangerous  +2 E-grades
Exceptionally safe  -1 E-grade

[Franco]

No, i saw that. Just in the current age we live in where people are strong and scared, there's more than a couple of trad grades difference between a safish 8b and a death 8b. Maybe there's like 5 or 6 stages of danger? There are very few stage 6 (total death) routes.

[Fiend]

Taking this position would mean that E10 is a pretty wide grade and matching in diffculty near to the very top end of UK climbing on the sport side with only 1 route in the UK and 2 climbers who have done anything harder.   This tends to make me feel that E11 is a pretty big number and it is ok to question it, while at the same time not wanting to take anything away from what looks to be an really impressive effort.

Pretty sure it's 2 routes, Rhapsody and Echo Wall, and 3 climbers, DMac, SteMac, and Pearson. The other two contenders, Walk Of Life and Longhope Route got mercilessly downgraded ofc.
As for E10s, quite a few off the top of my head, Equlibrium, Sleepy Hollow, Chorozon,  that other thing in Pembroke, Rewind, To Hell And Back, Hold Fast Hold True, Parthian sans flake, etc. Not counting downgrades.

Rubbernecking the downgrades isn't necessarily as vindictive as Bonjoy implies. It's just a bit of fun to watch especially when climbers dance around the issue, trying to juggle maintaining their integrity, superiority, and social media credibility, no easy task. With something like Bibliographie it's a bit dull "Yeah more like hard 9b+ cos I used different beta" "Yeah he's probably right that it's not 9c, I hadn't fully refined my beta" blah blah the end. UK trad grade nitpicking is more fun.

Incidentally I'd like to reiterate my previous post in which I wasn't slagging off the UKC article, and by implication not slagging off Gresh's route nor his effort putting it up. I still stand by slagging off  this useless trendy self-hating "british trad has a relatively low sport grade equivalent so let's all be ashamed both our punterdom AND grading system" bollox tho.

[Will Hunt]

How is the below so complicated to use as a guide:

For averagely safe routes
5 - 5+  E1
6a-6a+ E2 
6b-6b+ E3
6c-6c+ E4
7a-7a+ E5
7b-7b+ E6
7c-7c+ E7
8a-8a+ E8
8b-8b+ E9
8c-8c+ E10
9a-9a+ E11
9b-9b+ E12

Bold/scary/long runouts but not exceptionally dangerous  +1 E-grade
Exceptionally dangerous  +2 E-grades
Exceptionally safe  -1 E-grade

Totally niche question but does this work on Yorkshire limestone? A lot of the trad E6s are now 7c after bolting but I'm not sure how safe they were. Depends how many pegs/fixed slings there were, I suppose - but a lot of that information you'll only get from speaking to the people who were there.
I think part of the reason the area has suffered as a trad venue is that some of the grades were horrible. Oedipus was recently retrobolted. That was E3 and feels 7a to me now. I think that gear-wise there was hard moves off the deck to decent kit (peg, I think, and pumpy to place the back-up), then a fairly sustained upper section with maybe one or two good runners?

[abarro81]

Fiend - Ian was meaning 1 route harder than 9a+ and 2 brits who've climbed harder than 9a+...

[ali k]

As for E10s, quite a few off the top of my head, Equlibrium, Sleepy Hollow, Chorozon, that other thing in Pembroke, Rewind, To Hell And Back, Hold Fast Hold True, Parthian sans flake, etc. Not counting downgrades.

Olympiad. Rewind was suggested as E9 by Wojciech so might be off the list.

[Franco]

Taking this position would mean that E10 is a pretty wide grade and matching in diffculty near to the very top end of UK climbing on the sport side with only 1 route in the UK and 2 climbers who have done anything harder.   This tends to make me feel that E11 is a pretty big number and it is ok to question it, while at the same time not wanting to take anything away from what looks to be an really impressive effort.

Pretty sure it's 2 routes, Rhapsody and Echo Wall, and 3 climbers, DMac, SteMac, and Pearson. The other two contenders, Walk Of Life and Longhope Route got mercilessly downgraded ofc.
As for E10s, quite a few off the top of my head, Equlibrium, Sleepy Hollow, Chorozon,  that other thing in Pembroke, Rewind, To Hell And Back, Hold Fast Hold True, Parthian sans flake, etc. Not counting downgrades.

Rubbernecking the downgrades isn't necessarily as vindictive as Bonjoy implies. It's just a bit of fun to watch especially when climbers dance around the issue, trying to juggle maintaining their integrity, superiority, and social media credibility, no easy task. With something like Bibliographie it's a bit dull "Yeah more like hard 9b+ cos I used different beta" "Yeah he's probably right that it's not 9c, I hadn't fully refined my beta" blah blah the end. UK trad grade nitpicking is more fun.

Incidentally I'd like to reiterate my previous post in which I wasn't slagging off the UKC article, and by implication not slagging off Gresh's route nor his effort putting it up. I still stand by slagging off  this useless trendy self-hating "british trad has a relatively low sport grade equivalent so let's all be ashamed both our punterdom AND grading system" bollox tho.

The NE has two routes graded harder than E10.

[petejh]

As for E10s, quite a few off the top of my head, Equlibrium, Sleepy Hollow, Chorozon, that other thing in Pembroke, Rewind, To Hell And Back, Hold Fast Hold True, Parthian sans flake, etc. Not counting downgrades.

Olympiad. Rewind was suggested as E9 by Wojciech so might be off the list.

Also Prisoners of the Sun, James Taylor's E10 at Rhoscolyn. 8b, reportedly sketchy to fall from crux.
https://www.ukclimbing.com/news/2021/06/prisoners_of_the_sun_-_e10_7a_fa_by_james_taylor-72796

[ali k]

I can neither confirm nor deny that you had such a dream, but I can confirm that I own a very long clipstick and nowadays have a very low tolerance to being bold, making this seem unlikely in real life. Are you sure I didn't just say take, moan about hard clips being shit, moan about my fingers and then lower off and sulk for a while? Sounds more realistic...

No you definitely decked - I was stood right underneath you, but might have moved out of your way. P.s. Can't believe Dunc has puntered me for dreaming about you! Doesn't everyone?

[remus]

Olympiad. Rewind was suggested as E9 by Wojciech so might be off the list.

Olympiad is 8b and safe as a DWS, therefore benchmark E9. Climbing it with the tide out is just poor tactics 

[ali k]

Olympiad is 8b and safe as a DWS, therefore benchmark E9. Climbing it with the tide out is just poor tactics 

I was gonna say similar but didn't want to confuse matters 

[Fiend]

Fiend - Ian was meaning 1 route harder than 9a+ and 2 brits who've climbed harder than 9a+...

ooops which I'd know if I'd bothered to read the post properly instead of skimming over.

Equally shameful that I forgot Prisoners Of The Sun given I walked past the damn thing a couple of weeks ago and even downloaded the new topo for that wall in the vain hope someone had found a loose but pleasant F6b(R-) that I could dabble in 

Anyway I think the point is....ummm what was the point?? Something about the top end of Pete's grade table not actually working linearly in it's common application. Yes that's the one.

[Bonjoy]

The process of grading trad routes shouldn't be that difficult. Certainly not as hard you make it out Bonjoy. There are only really two important variables to consider:
sport grade - any regular climber should be should be able to accurately judge this to within 2 grades.
danger - given the four options below someone should be able to judge this to within 2 options. When climbs aren't getting put up onsight/ground-up then danger isn't *that* theoretical.

I think you misundertood my thesis. I'm not saying grading is desperately difficult, just that assuming no dishonesty, if you get it wrong it's more likely you'll have overgraded than undergraded. In most cases this is because of new beta (including gear). This is a one way bias, routes never gain grades by losing beta. Nobody unerringly finds the best beta on every single ascent and everyone is working within subtly different physiological limits anyway, hence the most efficient beta may not even work for the FAer. The outcome we see is more top end routes shedding grades than gaining them (with most staying at the given grade obvs).