[Kingy]

Megos's thoughts on Stefano's downgrade of Bibliography. I thought this deserved its own thread.

Good to get an insight into the thought processes at this rarified level...

www.instagram.com/p/CTJn7gxKtkg/

[User deactivated.]

A case of relatively poor tactics then.

If I remember correctly, the rokpunkt film explained that he'd never really projected anything, so it's not surprising his tactics aren't a strong suit.

Not much experience at the highest level either, with 'only' a single 9b+?

[Kingy]

Yes, I get the impression Alex stuck with a method even if he knew deep down it probably wasn't the easiest. He is so frikkin strong it seemed like this worked in the end but left behind slightly easier possibilities waiting to be discovered.

I remember Alex saying in a lecture I went to once that changing beta in the middle of a RP campaign is often a mistake as it wastes time and you have to re-gain muscle memory and efficiency on the new method. I guess you have to weigh up whether the new method is easy enough to risk changing....

I can't remember where I heard it but Ste Mac apparently changed his Rainman beta and spent 6 more days getting a move further than his high point at the time. The final verdict was that he should have stuck with the original way...or something like that!

[jwi]

Alex Megos agrees with Ghisolfi's suggestion of 9b+

https://www.instagram.com/p/CTJn7gxKtkg/

[Bradders]

Yes, I get the impression Alex stuck with a method even if he knew deep down it probably wasn't the easiest. He is so frikkin strong it seemed like this worked in the end but left behind slightly easier possibilities waiting to be discovered.

I remember Alex saying in a lecture I went to once that changing beta in the middle of a RP campaign is often a mistake as it wastes time and you have to re-gain muscle memory and efficiency on the new method. I guess you have to weigh up whether the new method is easy enough to risk changing....

I can't remember where I heard it but Ste Mac apparently changed his Rainman beta and spent 6 more days getting a move further than his high point at the time. The final verdict was that he should have stuck with the original way...or something like that!

Interesting as I've heard the complete opposite from loads of top level climbers. Sure for example I've heard Jimmy Webb say you should always be looking for refinements and alternatives, Dave Mac too.

Loads of examples too of people changing beta and getting things done soon after.

With the greatest respect to him, maybe that's where Megos' lack of actual projecting experience has led him to a sub optimal approach? Seems to be roughly what he's saying in his post.

[Kingy]

Interesting as I've heard the complete opposite from loads of top level climbers. Sure for example I've heard Jimmy Webb say you should always be looking for refinements and alternatives, Dave Mac too.

Loads of examples too of people changing beta and getting things done soon after.

With the greatest respect to him, maybe that's where Megos' lack of actual projecting experience has led him to a sub optimal approach? Seems to be roughly what he's saying in his post.

Yes, definitely agree. I think Ethan Pringle's experience of hard projecting for example from his posts can be summed up by 'tried really hard for ages, changed one foot placement then sent next session'

I think you can go too far the other way and get sucked into a trap of never sticking with anything which in climbing, as in life, rarely bears fruit 

[moose]

"Fail fast, fail often".

[36chambers]

Didn't Megos once say "There is no too short, too tall, too heavy, too warm, too wet, or too humid. There is just one excuse: too weak." and then get all angry because he couldn't do an 8b+ an appalling connies?

If he's foolish enough to ignore God's wind, I'm not surprised his general tactics aren't all that great.

[petejh]

Yep he said something along those lines. He must have been 'too weak' to flash Statement of Youth when he visited LPT in 2013. It had nothing to do with the cliff being soaking wet...

[Fiend]

Megos's thoughts on Stefano's downgrade of Bibliography. I thought this deserved its own thread.

Good to get an insight into the thought processes at this rarified level...

www.instagram.com/p/CTJn7gxKtkg/

It's all alarmingly gentle, sensible and civilised 

Still, megos's complete bollox about "no such thing as bad conditions" always was and always will be complete bollox.

[SA Chris]

That's ego writing cheques the body can't cash.

[Paul B]

Still, megos's complete bollox about "no such thing as bad conditions" always was and always will be complete bollox.

Unclesomebody once told me the same bollocks based on the fact that some uberwad had climbed Gecko Assis in the summer.

[duncan]

Nine potential 9cs (Desnivel, auto-translated).  We get the post-olympic bump this winter, right?

[Wellsy]

I always thought Megos' comment on conditions was a wry joke, made even better by that clipped German accent.

[DAVETHOMAS90]

Megos's thoughts on Stefano's downgrade of Bibliography. I thought this deserved its own thread.

Good to get an insight into the thought processes at this rarified level...

I spat out my beans 

[tomrainbow]

Is that a euphemism Dave?

[DAVETHOMAS90]

Is that a euphemism Dave?

No, it's a meme, Jase 

I did very nearly spit out my beans though.

Ghisolfi's vid gives a good perspective on the beans required.

[Hyomin]

I made this point once, but I don`t see it made very often. Megos doesn`t really seem keen on repeating too many 9b and harder routes out there. I could maybe see his argument if he thought silence was too cruxy with its foot first jamming, or had too many knee bars or whatever the excuse really is. But he hasn´t really bothered to create much of a pyramid of grades up to announcing his 9c FA of bibliographie. I don`t want to say he has a chip on his shoulder or he`s too proud to try Ondras routes but it does kind of seem like he avoids Ondras test pieces. Meanwhile, Ondra seems at least up for trying Perfecto Mundo even though he admits its not his style, ie he's not afraid to fail whereas Megos seems like he avoids being measured with the same stick as Ondra at all costs.

[remus]

I made this point once, but I don`t see it made very often. Megos doesn`t really seem keen on repeating too many 9b and harder routes out there. I could maybe see his argument if he thought silence was too cruxy with its foot first jamming, or had too many knee bars or whatever the excuse really is. But he hasn´t really bothered to create much of a pyramid of grades up to announcing his 9c FA of bibliographie. I don`t want to say he has a chip on his shoulder or he`s too proud to try Ondras routes but it does kind of seem like he avoids Ondras test pieces. Meanwhile, Ondra seems at least up for trying Perfecto Mundo even though he admits its not his style, ie he's not afraid to fail whereas Megos seems like he avoids being measured with the same stick as Ondra at all costs.

While I think there may be a little truth in this Megos does have experience at the top level. Perfecto Mundo seems pretty settled at 9b+, so you can see why he gave bibliographie a grade harder if he found it substantially harder (similar style to perfecto mundo).

[Wood FT]

I made this point once, but I don`t see it made very often. Megos doesn`t really seem keen on repeating too many 9b and harder routes out there. I could maybe see his argument if he thought silence was too cruxy with its foot first jamming, or had too many knee bars or whatever the excuse really is. But he hasn´t really bothered to create much of a pyramid of grades up to announcing his 9c FA of bibliographie. I don`t want to say he has a chip on his shoulder or he`s too proud to try Ondras routes but it does kind of seem like he avoids Ondras test pieces. Meanwhile, Ondra seems at least up for trying Perfecto Mundo even though he admits its not his style, ie he's not afraid to fail whereas Megos seems like he avoids being measured with the same stick as Ondra at all costs.

While I think there may be a little truth in this Megos does have experience at the top level. Perfecto Mundo seems pretty settled at 9b+, so you can see why he gave bibliographie a grade harder if he found it substantially harder (similar style to perfecto mundo).

Definite Ondra beef. Absolutely love
It. Antoine soloed Revelations off the back of rivalry, Leach etc can chat about it otherwise but c’mon, what a burn off.

Megos loves the burn off, that ‘brush-point’ thing he did on a rival Jura clan’s 8c was such a burn.

Great leaps in progress can be made from a desire to burn one’s mate off. Is it an authentic desire? Probably not, but it makes great fodder for the post-magazine climbing culture.

[teestub]

While I think there may be a little truth in this Megos does have experience at the top level. Perfecto Mundo seems pretty settled at 9b+, so you can see why he gave bibliographie a grade harder if he found it substantially harder (similar style to perfecto mundo).

https://climbing-history.org/climber/472/alex-megos

So First Round is the only 9b he’s climbed that’s not an (unrepeated?) FA or something he’s suggested a slashy for. On Perfecto I guess he had a route with a dyno off a mono at the crux, so somewhat playing to his Frankenstrengths!

Pretty slim pyramid compared to Schubert, Ondra and Ghisolfi I guess.

[moose]

Obviously can't claim any knowledge of his motivations and tastes but I can see a rationale for not repeating the hardest routes by Ondra etc.  There are three outcomes and two of them are bad (to paraphrase a NFL truism about passing).  If he repeats rapidly, great.  Megos der wunderkind.  He can downgrade or act magnanimous and say the grade is true and imply he is great.  If he does the route after a struggle, while he has the tick, his glory is more second hand and he's indirectly burnishing the FA's vision / new routing effort.  If he doesn't do the route.... there's a suggestion he is unequal to the FA, even with the benefit of video beta etc. 

Re Ondra, I'm ambivalent - he's a one-man industry - always accompanied by physios, a film crew, and no end of hangers-on, which leaves me cold.  But he sometimes seems to do stuff for shits and giggles, and risking looking less than perfect.  E.g. grovelling up off-widths or his attempt on Dawn Wall, which while successful by any sane measure, seemed almost half-cooked.  I expected far more prep and recce work, months of getting to grips with the Yosemite style, before going for a really fast repeat; instead, he seemed to do a few routes with his Dad before having a go (serious Ondra / Yosemite watchers may dispute this, but that was my impression from the coverage).

[teestub]

E.g. grovelling up off-widths or his attempt on Dawn Wall, which while successful by any sane measure, seemed almost half-cooked.  I expected far more prep and recce work, months of getting to grips with the Yosemite style, before going for a really fast repeat; instead, he seemed to do a few routes with his Dad before having a go (serious Ondra / Yosemite watchers may dispute this, but that was my impression from the coverage).

I mean it sounds like he was in Yosemite for a bit over a month, for the first time, when he did the Dawn Wall over 8 days when it had taken Caldwell however many days on their ascent (and the years leading up to it). https://www.climbing.com/news/adam-ondra-completes-dawn-wall/

Your description seems pretty accurate of what he got up to, he didn’t spend ages getting used to the style, he got benighted with his dad, but still did the hardest route there in short order!

[Fiend]

Definite Ondra beef. Absolutely love
It. Antoine soloed Revelations off the back of rivalry, Leach etc can chat about it otherwise but c’mon, what a burn off.

Megos loves the burn off, that ‘brush-point’ thing he did on a rival Jura clan’s 8c was such a burn.

Great leaps in progress can be made from a desire to burn one’s mate off. Is it an authentic desire? Probably not, but it makes great fodder for the post-magazine climbing culture.

I'm struggling to see much beef tbh, sure there's a bit of rivalry but that's natural. Struggling to see much issue with slight over-grading of Bibliographie either. One grade out for reasons that are clearly explicated.

As for the Ondra marketing/training machine which has been deathly quiet since the Olympics debacle, I can see Moose's point but I'm pretty sure Ondra's genuine passion for climbing and progressing has come first, and the machine has come on the back of that - the dog is still wagging the tail for now. https://www.climbing.com/videos/video-adam-ondra-flashes-jade-v14/ - this psyche at 4:04 was memorable and that's the sort of thing I've always liked about AO.

[Bradders]

Third ascent by Sean Bailey. No comment on grade.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CUdFUn9J9t3/?utm_medium=copy_link

[Ged]

Who is Sean Bailey then?  I've never heard the name.  Does he have form for this sort of thing?  I find it amazing that only the 4th person to climb a possible 9c is so unheard of

[shark]

I had to look him up. On the US team and good track record in comps. Did Biographie 5 years ago

[abarro81]

He's hardly unknown - multiple hard things at Ceuse, Oliana.. multiple 8C+ IIRC.. world cup victories (in both lead and boulder I think?)...

[teestub]

Yeah two 8C+ boulders and several >9a routes between comp training. Goes by ‘Steezy’ a lot of the time it seems which may be why his name is unfamiliar.

One of the new US comp wad generation with Coleman, Raboutou, Grossman etc.

[jwi]

Yeah, he won the bouldering in Salt Lake and Chamonix and Villars in lead this year. Also got 2nd overall in the world cup in lead and 4th overall in bouldering. Not shit.

As HaeMeS pointed out in the Significant Repeats thread, the Pizzeria in Sigoyer already broke the news half a week ago...

Bibliographie by Sean Bailey:

https://www.facebook.com/310104132349325/posts/5061076433918714/

Will the grade survive a possible French repeat?

[remus]

Little bit of info on the man himself https://climbing-history.org/climber/980/sean-bailey

Interestingly nothing harder than 9a+ from what I can find (though he did suggest 9a+/b for Grand Illusion, a long boulder problem). Big old jump that!

[jwi]

And Miho Nonaka jumped from 7c+ to 8c+ 🤷🏼‍♂️

[remus]

And Miho Nonaka jumped from 7c+ to 8c+ 🤷🏼‍♂️

I bet she won't jump again to 9a+ though.

In other news, sounds like Seb is getting close. Great to see a hard route getting this much attention.

[SA Chris]

Seb Grieve?

[Wood FT]

Seb Grieve?

God loves a trier

[Bradders]

Remember when there was speculation as to which would get repeated first; Silence or Bibliography?

I'd be willing to bet that Bibliography will have ascents approaching double figures before Silence gets a repeat!

[Rocksteady]

Remember when there was speculation as to which would get repeated first; Silence or Bibliography?

I'd be willing to bet that Bibliography will have ascents approaching double figures before Silence gets a repeat!

I wouldn't bet against you!
Looking at Bibliographie of course it looks incredibly hard but it looks recognisable, it looks like climbing that I understand. Just at a much more rarified level. It looks good!
Silence is a whole different world, the body positions are crazy, horrendous positions where you're hanging most of your weight on shouldery gastons, weird footwork, leg positions Ondra had to use a physio to help him get into. I can't imagine what it would feel like to climb. It looks horrible!

[teestub]

It looks horrible!

Yep, also seems to finish at a somewhat arbitrary point in the cave whereas Bibliographie looks to take the full height of the cliff like Biographie.

[remus]

Horses for courses I guess. The climbing on silence looks way more fun to me.

[Bonjoy]

It's the hardest route in the world, it's not supposed to be fun

[honroid]

It's the hardest route in the world, it's not supposed to be fun

 ;