[mr chaz]

Being exciting doesn't mean it ain't bollucks! I'll enjoy watching the various 'road to gold' blog videos ahead of Paris in which Ondra picks a number from a hat and says voila!

[gme]

If this builds from here it will have as much to do with the climbing we talk about as what chris hoy did going round in circles on a bike has in common with you going for a ride on the weekend.

The winners in the future will have no interest in outdoor climbing. I dont think a lot of them do now.

[teestub]

My suggestion that there should be separate medals for speed, boulder an lead then a separate combined including all three, not two. This will be like athletics and there will be people who specialize in the combined who are not the best at each individual component, just like decathlon.

With the current scoring format, if you specialise in combined, so you come upper mid table in everything, you will not get a medal!

[Yossarian]

GME - who are these kids whose opinions you have so quickly canvassed?! I watched the speed with a 10-year-old comp climber who admittedly found it quite entertaining to watch, but who wrinkled her nose at the prospect of actually training for it. Kids climb at bouldering walls. We're certainly not going to drive to London to climb on a (currently non-existent) speed wall. And before you also write off their outdoor aspirations, I discovered the other day that, yet again, she's been telling her coaches that though she likes getting on podiums, she is much more interested in doing hard things outside.

[Ru]

Really exciting event, but pretty random results. They should go the whole hog and add a tombola round. 

[SA Chris]

Selection by Ip Dip Sky Blue would be better than a tombola.

[petekitso]

I am behind the times here (had to pause mid way through Schubert when work intruded) but that was an amazing finale. If he  had dropped it three moves earlier medals I think medals would be completely different. We will all have to learn to live with the  speed scoring.

I really  enjoyed it - thought the setting was brilliant today. I even enjoyed the speed (although glad that won't be part of the  same event in future).  My resident 'kids' were fairly non-plussed by the speed element, on the other hand it's the only aspect of climbing that has even slightly interested my mum . . .

[gme]

My suggestion that there should be separate medals for speed, boulder an lead then a separate combined including all three, not two. This will be like athletics and there will be people who specialize in the combined who are not the best at each individual component, just like decathlon.

With the current scoring format, if you specialise in combined, so you come upper mid table in everything, you will not get a medal!

How is that any different from the decathlon/heptathlon, which i, and many other love. Not one perosn whos ever won that is world leading in an individual event.

Im talking about it as a separate event that people will specialise in with individual medals for each event.

My personal opinion is that speed and boulder have more in common for larger body types with large amounts of strength and power than boulder and lead, and as the sports grow these specializations will become more prevalent. Why should Mickeal Mawem or his like not have a combination event to try and win.

[gme]

GME - who are these kids whose opinions you have so quickly canvassed?! I watched the speed with a 10-year-old comp climber who admittedly found it quite entertaining to watch, but who wrinkled her nose at the prospect of actually training for it. Kids climb at bouldering walls. We're certainly not going to drive to London to climb on a (currently non-existent) speed wall. And before you also write off their outdoor aspirations, I discovered the other day that, yet again, she's been telling her coaches that though she likes getting on podiums, she is much more interested in doing hard things outside.

And you have canvased one. Plenty of kids who dont have any aspirations of going out side and my, admittedly non climbing, kids and their mates think the speed looks like the best thing in the event, i would guess it would be the first thing they wanted a go of if they went to a wall.

[Teaboy]

I have never thought they were trying to find the best climber just the best at this event. The whole best climber thing is something for UKC forums.

Well I'm arguing from the perspective of climber, sure if you are just after another event to fill out TV schedules that is appealing to a wide audience then you should replace the bouldering round with egg and spoon.

Tomoa was possibly favorite but would he be the best climber if he had won? surely Ondra and megos are miles better than him.

I think that's my point, I'd want the best climber (i.e. the gold medal winner) in a combined event to be down from bouldering and lead, in any event Tomoa would be in the reckoning

My suggestion that there should be separate medals for speed, boulder an lead then a separate combined including all three, not two. This will be like athletics and there will be people who specialize in the combined who are not the best at each individual component, just like decathlon.

Kids will train speed it if there is a reason to do so.

I still don't see why you need speed at all, apart from moving in the same direction using the same limbs it has very little to do with the rest of the sport. It is a test of a single skill (speed) that is barely required in the other two disciplines. I reckon (warning: made up opinions being used to back up argument ahead) an Olympic level sprinter or gymnast could become a better speed climber than the most of today's finalists within 6 months, they would get nowhere in lead or bouldering because its a different sport altogether.

I also recking 50 monkeys could beat a polar bear in a fight.

[gme]

With three separate medals you can actually get the best person of each category winning the event and make it more entertaining. As soon as you combine any of them you end up with a weakened final with boulderers falling low in lead comps and lead not getting a top in boulder stood falling off some running jump for 4 mins.

If someone wants to prove they are the best at each event they can, if they want to prove they are the best at all of them they can try to win each individual or if someone wants to prove tha, whilst not the best at any they are the best allrounder they can.

That seems the solution to me.

To use the analogy of heptathlon again, surely speed climbing has more in common with boulder and lead than the shot put has with 100m hurdles or 1500m. But it works.

[Yossarian]

Exactly! It's clip n'climb with a good PR agency!

[teestub]

Sorry gme, to be clear, I was talking about your proposed combined specialists: with the current scoring system, someone who is a specialist in one of the events and can therefore get a first place in 1/3 events, is more likely to win the combined than a Jack of all Trades who would place mid table in all and get a massive multiplied score as a result. I’m not sure how the scoring works for decathlon and heptathlon, and if the scoring works the same, whether having more events helps even out the massive swings.

[Yossarian]

To use the analogy of heptathlon again, surely speed climbing has more in common with boulder and lead than the shot put has with 100m hurdles or 1500m. But it works.

Thats the answer - add speed climbing to modern pentathlon (along with the egg and spoon race).

[gme]

I have never thought they were trying to find the best climber just the best at this event. The whole best climber thing is something for UKC forums.

Well I'm arguing from the perspective of climber, sure if you are just after another event to fill out TV schedules that is appealing to a wide audience then you should replace the bouldering round with egg and spoon.

Tomoa was possibly favorite but would he be the best climber if he had won? surely Ondra and megos are miles better than him.

I think that's my point, I'd want the best climber (i.e. the gold medal winner) in a combined event to be down from bouldering and lead, in any event Tomoa would be in the reckoning

Tomoa would not even make semis in a world cup lead comp with a full entrant list.

[Nutty]

My suggestion that there should be separate medals for speed, boulder an lead then a separate combined including all three, not two. This will be like athletics and there will be people who specialize in the combined who are not the best at each individual component, just like decathlon.

With the current scoring format, if you specialise in combined, so you come upper mid table in everything, you will not get a medal!

How is that any different from the decathlon/heptathlon, which i, and many other love. Not one perosn whos ever won that is world leading in an individual event.

Im talking about it as a separate event that people will specialise in with individual medals for each event.

My personal opinion is that speed and boulder have more in common for larger body types with large amounts of strength and power than boulder and lead, and as the sports grow these specializations will become more prevalent. Why should Mickeal Mawem or his like not have a combination event to try and win.

I think you've missed a "not" there gme! teestub is arguing that if you are a solid competitor across all three events, you won't medal in the combined: you're better to be world-beating (or lucky in the case of head-to-head speed) in one, average in another and poor in a third.

I've no issue with there being a combined event, it's just the scoring needs sorting out. Have speed based on time and give people points on their performance relative to the winner of each discipline. At the moment there's no differentiation between smashing the field in an event or just squeaking the win, or conversely losing a tight contest or having a complete stinker. Heptathlon, Decathlon and Modern Pentathlon have solid scoring mechanisms, not multiplication of placings across events.

[teestub]

Tomoa would not even make semis in a world cup lead comp with a full entrant list.

https://www.ifsc-climbing.org/index.php?option=com_ifsc&task=athlete.display&id=2276

Some pretty decent results against packed fields here

[gme]

My suggestion that there should be separate medals for speed, boulder an lead then a separate combined including all three, not two. This will be like athletics and there will be people who specialize in the combined who are not the best at each individual component, just like decathlon.

With the current scoring format, if you specialise in combined, so you come upper mid table in everything, you will not get a medal!

How is that any different from the decathlon/heptathlon, which i, and many other love. Not one perosn whos ever won that is world leading in an individual event.

Im talking about it as a separate event that people will specialise in with individual medals for each event.

My personal opinion is that speed and boulder have more in common for larger body types with large amounts of strength and power than boulder and lead, and as the sports grow these specializations will become more prevalent. Why should Mickeal Mawem or his like not have a combination event to try and win.

I think you've missed a "not" there gme! teestub is arguing that if you are a solid competitor across all three events, you won't medal in the combined: you're better to be world-beating (or lucky in the case of head-to-head speed) in one, average in another and poor in a third.

I've no issue with there being a combined event, it's just the scoring needs sorting out. Have speed based on time and give people points on their performance relative to the winner of each discipline. At the moment there's no differentiation between smashing the field in an event or just squeaking the win, or conversely losing a tight contest or having a complete stinker. Heptathlon, Decathlon and Modern Pentathlon have solid scoring mechanisms, not multiplication of placings across events.

I was about to say the same. Its the scoring system that needs work not the event.

[gme]

Tomoa would not even make semis in a world cup lead comp with a full entrant list.

https://www.ifsc-climbing.org/index.php?option=com_ifsc&task=athlete.display&id=2276

Some pretty decent results against packed fields here

I have not got time to look but happy to reign my comment in to he would struggle to get to a FINAL with a full entry list.

[36chambers]

It all makes me a bit worried about tomorrow. I do hope there's no combination of events that could see Miroslaw with a medal.

Everyone who came first in an event today got a medal (and, not only that, the gold winner was the person who came first in speed...)

[SA Chris]

Was looking at how Erin qualified and looked like there were only 8 competitors total in the African Championship (7 RSA, 1 UGA) competing for the one spot, they seemed to all compete in qualifiers then all progress to finals. Looks like Graeme was the official there so maybe can shed more light. Wonder if there was a pre-qualification comp or if Covid prevented travelling competition (event I looked at was in December 2020)

https://www.ifsc-climbing.org/index.php/component/ifsc/?view=event&WetId=1168

Outside of RSA I'm not sure there are any / many walls in Africa, and I think they might have the only certified speed wall, but Graeme may be able to confirm. Agree that having regional qualifiers may not represent a level playing field of competitors, but the same holds true for any major "world" event (Football WC, Rugby WC).

[gme]

He probaably would get in a WC speed final though.

[Teaboy]

With three separate medals you can actually get the best person of each category winning the event and make it more entertaining. As soon as you combine any of them you end up with a weakened final with boulderers falling low in lead comps and lead not getting a top in boulder stood falling off some running jump for 4 mins.

If someone wants to prove they are the best at each event they can, if they want to prove they are the best at all of them they can try to win each individual or if someone wants to prove tha, whilst not the best at any they are the best allrounder they can.

That seems the solution to me.

Well there's not too much to argue with there but I was replying your comment "I really hope all the naysayers eat there words as that was amazing", you were using todays excitement as vindication for the current set up not some fantasy alternative with 4 separate competitions. I've not heard any naysayers to that proposal (apart from the IOC themselves).

[36chambers]

Tomoa would not even make semis in a world cup lead comp with a full entrant list.

https://www.ifsc-climbing.org/index.php?option=com_ifsc&task=athlete.display&id=2276

Some pretty decent results against packed fields here

I have not got time to look but happy to reign my comment in to he would struggle to get to a FINAL with a full entry list.

I got you. In 2019, he came 3rd and 4th in lead against a lot of people.

[gme]

Tomoa would not even make semis in a world cup lead comp with a full entrant list.

https://www.ifsc-climbing.org/index.php?option=com_ifsc&task=athlete.display&id=2276

Some pretty decent results against packed fields here

I have not got time to look but happy to reign my comment in to he would struggle to get to a FINAL with a full entry list.

I got you. In 2019, he came 3rd and 4th in lead against a lot of people.

Bollocks. The 6th in Villars was the only event where there was a relatively full field. The events in China dont count at all.