[Yossarian]

Have been enjoying the weaknesses thread, but have decided that I agree with Doylo and I want to get better at the things I like. In the past I've been quite good at oomphy climbing - locks, and big moves on good holds, etc. Currently that sort of thing feels quite hard because I'm too fat and have got too much crappy life stuff going on to consistently do anything about that. So my logic now is to get stronger instead, and then when I do get skinnier I'll feel doubly awesome...

I did quite a lot of assisted 1-armers, isometric one arm hangs at 90 and 120deg, weighted pull-ups, etc through the autumn lockdown and felt fairly weapons grade when I got back to the wall last December (this is starting to sound like one of Gresh's Instagram posts). I think I did a 150kg pull-up in Nov iirc.

But now I'm back at the wall 3ish times a week I've barely managed to fit any of that in because I need at least a day or two recovery at the moment. I realise that doing a mnml board session could be followed with a day doing that strength stuff at home, but it's a 2hr round trip to the wall, and I've not got the self-control to resist shiny new problems.

I've been doing an hour or so of 40deg board every session, and that does seem to be working a bit. Especially since I've been adding some juggier powerful stuff as well as the crimpier / smaller move stuff that is my comfort zone. I guess what I'm thinking is that there are perhaps exercises or specific single move problems that would have a similar effect to doing hard pull-ups etc whilst being a lot more specific. Like cutting loose on every move, or holding lock positions on bad feet, etc.

Does anyone do any of this sort of thing? I'll admit that it does sound very much like a Ldnclmbr training question...

[mrjonathanr]

I got into campusing a few years ago. A couple of times a week for 2 or 3 months. God I felt snappy with the contact strength to use it. This immediately preceded about 3 years barely climbing with dreadful golfers in first one, then the other elbow.

So if you do get involved in plyometrics, my advice would be highly focused very short sessions with massive amounts of rest/adaptation time.

Not sure how helpful that is, but injury is always worth avoiding!

[Yossarian]

I was thinking this. My issue with campusing recently is that if I have any residual forearm fatigue (I get this lingering tenderness if I overdo things at the moment) it totally exacerbates it. But the answer is obvs to try not to end up with that fatigue by not overdoing it…

[Fiend]

Good topic. And top advice from mrjr.

In my vast experience, moonboard definitely seems to have that on FFH problems - big moves between big holds. Footholds are usually good on FFH so less about body tension and more about burl and catching holds. The same could apply to your current board of choice with the right problems.

Depending what you like doing at the wall, I think a bit of boarding could be fitted into a normal session. Use the wall to warm up well, board until you're bored, then back on the wall BUT carefully stick to problems that even if challenging are techy / knacky / fiddly / a lot less steep. You should still have some energy left for that and the different terrain shouldn't overfatigue you. (N.B. this is guesswork but has worked for me before).

The other, and blindingly obvious, thing, is to just do more seriously burly problems at the wall. Seek out the steepness specifically. Even modern blob wrestles can have some damn burly moves, albeit usually between volumes. And maybe get some multi-session projects up in that terrain?? I.e. if you're working hard at stuff you can't do, it's probably going to stimulate the sort of muscular usage you're after.

[Yossarian]

Ta Fiend. I did a bit of campusing last night during the board part of the session and it didn't feel very nice. I think I need to be completely fresh for it. I did some campusing on steep problems and it felt better. I generally try to avoid this as I don't want to be mistaken for a musclebound gym exile (though they're usually easy to spot - backwards cap, long tube socks, hire shoes, golds gym vest and loud grunting) but I think it's probably quite effective, especially if you slow it down and lock and reach, rather than swinging like a chimp. It does knacker skin quit fast though...

[Fiend]

(though they're usually easy to spot - backwards cap, long tube socks, hire shoes, golds gym vest and loud grunting)

Oi! It's usually a Gorgoroth or Deathchant Records vest...

BTW by mid-session boarding, I meant just Moonboard or similar woodie, not campusboarding or fingerboarding. It feels to me like the former fits in more naturally with a bouldering session.

[User deactivated.]

In the past I've been quite good at oomphy climbing - locks

If you want to double down on this strength, have a go at slowly repping the transition point on ring muscle ups (from the top of the pull up to bottom of the dip). If/when you can do more than 5 reps add weight or switch to a bar which is significantly harder. It was extremely effective for me for deep lock offs!

[Yossarian]

(though they're usually easy to spot - backwards cap, long tube socks, hire shoes, golds gym vest and loud grunting)

Oi! It's usually a Gorgoroth or Deathchant Records vest...

BTW by mid-session boarding, I meant just Moonboard or similar woodie, not campusboarding or fingerboarding. It feels to me like the former fits in more naturally with a bouldering session.

Ahh, I get you. Actually, I've been doing the board every session pretty much for the last month or so. For various reasons, but mainly because when I do eventually haul my arse outside again I think it'll have made more difference than getting sucked into blob caressing with the other dads.

Liam - that's an interesting idea. I've not used the rings for ages. I might try that.

In an ideal world I think what I'd do would start the week with a shorter FB session at home followed by a strict board session at the wall (very gradual warm up, then an hour of board max), and then do something the following day (fun bloqques or pull-ups / locks at home), but at the moment I just end up doing more on Monday night then spend the next 2 days recovering.

[mrjonathanr]

Ta Fiend. I did a bit of campusing last night during the board part of the session and it didn't feel very nice. I think I need to be completely fresh for it.

I’d say so. Climbing and campusing in different sessions, beyond warming up.

[jwi]

Ta Fiend. I did a bit of campusing last night during the board part of the session and it didn't feel very nice. I think I need to be completely fresh for it.

I’d say so. Climbing and campusing in different sessions, beyond warming up.

After all these years, I am still surprised how little campusing I can do at the beginning of a session and still render the fingers useless for hard bouldering later in the session or even later in the day. The same goes for fingerboarding.

[DAVETHOMAS90]

Interesting, this.

I went to my local boulder last night. Lamp session on the concrete 

Cool enough to pull on a four year old project, but wanted to try the moves with a 5kg weight belt.

I've often found a good session on the Campus board - always at the beginning of a session after a brief warm-up - a great way of transferring a much higher intensity of effort onto the bouldering wall, for a short session on that after.

Just bouldering, I think it's far too easy to languish in the middle ground, not warming up for max efforts, but actually just getting relatively fatigued/ground down/poss even injured instead.

Warming down last night with a couple of short circuits, I noticed the same - a much better level of recruitment - and it made me think that we can mistake a feeling of general fatigue, and inability to pull any more, for having had a good session.

I think the campus board can help us understand the level of intensity we can operate/train at, but often miss.

I've also found that training at a higher intensity generally leads to less injury - if you're not rested sufficiently to pull hard enough, you simply won't be able to move.
That said, I have seen people working on the Campus board, as though they're "trying a problem", rather than emphasising output.

Last nights session was really illuminating. I had two torches.
Relatively short session, but feel worked today.

[Climbing in a pair of Mr JR's cast off Scarpas so following the resoles thread too]

[Yossarian]

In my (much more modest) experience I agree with that. Actually, over the last couple of years, my best board sessions have generally followed doing max hangs (gradual warm up and then 5x 5-7 seconds of proper bulging eyes) before driving to the wall. When I was a bit lighter I used to mix campus into a board session, probably in the middle third, and that seemed to work quite well.

I guess the definition of oomph is slightly fuzzy too. My concept is having a surplus of power, but also having the ability to casually lock and static moves on steep / juggy routes like Empire and Comedy. After doing a load of very low rep isometrics and assisted 1 arms, etc, I felt that I had way more of that sort of strength than I'd ever had before.

Which is why I'm wondering if people use 1-2 move problems on boards to create these v high intensity positions to generate the sort of response Dave is talking about, vs doing longer stuff plus generally burly problems, which get you strong but perhaps in a different way? I guess it's the same principle behind some people believing in training with a weight vest. Alex Lemel seems to wear a weight vest on everything, and it doesn't seem to have done him any harm. (I have been trying to stay optimistic and have been trying to treat my excess flab as a 20kg weight vest for the past few months).

[DAVETHOMAS90]

"In my (much more modest) experience".. I'm not sure I understand that bit 

In my experience, having a somewhat inflated sense of one's own ability can have a really positive effect.

There's some truth in that though, wrt what you're willing to try/get on.

A few thoughts.
It's important to think about what you're training/working on, when heavy or wearing a belt. Where are you going to notice the difference when you remove it?
Trying moves - or training on the Campus board smaller rungs etc - requiring good contact strength (more about that myth later) while wearing a belt, is in my opinion going to help develop a very useful transferable strength.

Perhaps it will help you transfer your already existing strength on longer moves, to harder routes/climbing? - as in, it's not just a case of enjoying our strengths "in themselves", but working on where we can apply them.

The project I was referring to "is just two moves; that's it"  - long throw from a pinch to a crimp, then long throw to a sloper. It's a thing of beauty.



On a good day, I've been able to do the top move seven times, and the first, six, but not stick it. Having stronger contact will make a big difference, hence getting on it the other night with a weight belt.

[mrjonathanr]

Lacking a bit of definition there, Dave 

[Yossarian]

"In my (much more modest) experience".. I'm not sure I understand that bit 

In my experience, having a somewhat inflated sense of one's own ability can have a really positive effect.

There's some truth in that though, wrt what you're willing to try/get on.

Apologies for the delayed reply to that post Dave. After lengthy soul-searching, I eventually decided to take the obvious approach and lose weight and get stronger.

Last night I managed to keep my board session to about 45 mins with a little play on a single crimpy problem elsewhere at the wall and left feeling quite strong still, which makes a change. After a lighter week last week (including some time outside in N Wales) I felt the best I'd been for a while on the board and still feel ok to try attempting a one arm / weighted pull-up session tonight. If that goes ok, I think I'll add a little campus to Thursday along with the board (which worked before) and then a longer / more varied wall session on Saturday.

[AMorris]

Last night I managed to keep my board session to about 45 mins with a little play on a single crimpy problem elsewhere at the wall and left feeling quite strong still, which makes a change. After a lighter week last week (including some time outside in N Wales) I felt the best I'd been for a while on the board and still feel ok to try attempting a one arm / weighted pull-up session tonight. If that goes ok, I think I'll add a little campus to Thursday along with the board (which worked before) and then a longer / more varied wall session on Saturday.

I like this post a great deal, since I have been trying to work out the riddle that is the finger that has been plaguing me for almost a year now (and completely torpedoing my ambitions and psyche, but more on that never). I have come to the conclusion that I tend to feel better after shorter sessions, even though I have been used to long'uns (3+ hours) in the past. Is it general consensus that sub 90 minute ish sessions and leaving feeling strong but no longer at max is the way to go for longevity and consistent improvements?

[Yossarian]

Our Saturday sessions are 3hrs because of daughter's squad so it's easy to overdo it, especially if I do some board first thing, and then get sucked into other stuff afterwards. Recently I've had horrible forearm tenderness from overcooking it, and sometimes that ruins the whole of the next week. I think for me that, if I do anything more then a brief play on the board, I have to be very careful about the volume of intense stuff I do afterwards.

Everything feels good at the moment, so am going to try to increase sessions but reduce the volume of each.

[Wellsy]

Training oomph is something relevant to my interests...

I'm definitely way better at climbing statically than dynamically. It's a real weakness. Well, I say weakness, maybe it's just that I have static grindy strength out of proportion to everything else. But anyway; I've been trying to train myself on these problems, but also trying to ensure that I can keep my feet on as I go, deadpointing moves I can't static. It's a hard space to find, but I think it is quite useful to get the head in the place of moving dynamically.

Indoors these days I basically use the board when I want to try hard, and the circuits for when I don't. Which usually translates to 1-2 board sessions a week.

[Yossarian]

Yeah, I am the same and quite slow too. I think the feeling of oomph for me (on a board) is not crazy long dynamic moves on really shit feet. Which involves mainly positive edges / good crimps for the hands at the moment. I think the oomph sensation comes from pulling quite powerfully, but with the whole core and connection to the feet feeling as one. I think campusing probably trains the upper portion the best, and maybe deadlifting the rest, but in the absence of those, that sort of thing seems to work. Ironically, I think when you're oomph levels are high it's very easy to find yourself doing things statically again...

[Wellsy]

Agreed. I do some deadlifting as it is, I think it is useful for being able to drive your feet as well as posterior chain engagement. I also think that campusing probably trains the explosive power generation ability of one's arms, and a few of my experienced friends have suggested it could be useful from watching me, but the cognoscenti of UKB have suggested otherwise and not without good reason. The board seems to be a happy medium in a sense; trains keeping the core tension and your feet on while doing deadpointing and dynamic moves.

Basically what I need to learn is doing the kind of clever flicks and deadpointing that people who are less strong do in order to easily do things that I use strength to do, because then when applying that with strength to harder stuff will pay dividends. Although this is very much not me working at a strength but rather working on a weakess. Which is fine; I like working weaknesses.

[User deactivated.]

Basically what I need to learn is doing the kind of clever flicks and deadpointing that people who are less strong do in order to easily do things that I use strength to do

People who are less strong. Nail on head. The point of moving dynamically is to use less strength/energy and it is mainly technique. Yoss, your post screams technique too (getting the body moving as a unit). Climbing on the new comp style boulders and some routine mobility training might help? Combined with a conscious effort to move well during your regular climbing.

I've also noticed climbers who use the full crimp a lot tend to move statically. This was me, and despite having the strength to do all sorts of calisthenic feats of strength, my climbing was stiff and static. I think this grip tends to lock the wrist and limits movement.

[Wellsy]

I very rarely full crimp but I generally half crimp including the pinky very enthusiastically. I do climb dead statically though. I will learn the technique of flicky business

[Yossarian]

Basically what I need to learn is doing the kind of clever flicks and deadpointing that people who are less strong do in order to easily do things that I use strength to do

People who are less strong. Nail on head. The point of moving dynamically is to use less strength/energy and it is mainly technique. Yoss, your post screams technique too (getting the body moving as a unit). Climbing on the new comp style boulders and some routine mobility training might help? Combined with a conscious effort to move well during your regular climbing.

I've also noticed climbers who use the full crimp a lot tend to move statically. This was me, and despite having the strength to do all sorts of calisthenic feats of strength, my climbing was stiff and static. I think this grip tends to lock the wrist and limits movement.

You're definitely right. I think it's a technique I lack anyway, but at the moment my dynamic movement feels heavily restricted as a result of feeling too heavy. Hence initially trying to cheat that but then becoming resigned to dealing with it properly. Re movement - I always avoid party trick dynes for example, so perhaps I should embrace these?!

I've thought about nthgat sort of movement a lot since watching daughter (10) who was very static and her coaches have paired her up with a little technical wizard who's a bit older but shorter. He ability to fire himself from his feet is quite amazing, and I started to (try to) change how I climb as soon as I first saw it.

[DAVETHOMAS90]

Everything feels good at the moment, so am going to try to increase sessions but reduce the volume of each.

This.

Some great posts.

For me, 90 minutes is a long session, if I'm training by myself. Lots of little sessions seem to work really well.

Re: "Oomph" - you have to actively go searching for it 
Recruitment is key. A lot can be said about tradeoffs between strength and technique, and the illusion that they are as independent as they seem. My technique is impeccable when I'm feeling strong 

My sessions at the local boulder can be as short as 30 mins. Unless I'm working out the positions/movement required on a new problem, I try to focus on quality of output. That doesn't mean counting the times I latch a given hold on a project, but prioritising how "engaged" I feel.

It's a bit like DIY. It's the incremental little bits on the way that make the difference, but which you never seem to feel the benefit of at the time. Putting off chasing the payoff seems key.

A word of caution re the above.
One thing I learned from running, was that doing recovery runs at an easy pace didn't mean therefore running a long distance instead. It means easy pace and short distance.

Always Be Conditioning 


Good thread this BTW.

[User deactivated.]

I agree with Dave on short sessions, particularly for being explosive.

When i'm properly stuck into a project, I tend to let training take a back seat and visit the boulder every other day, usually climbing until i'm totally spent, with perhaps a bit of fingerboarding on some off-days. Over this period, i'm usually moving well on rock, but volume is high and so fatigue accumulates, joints tend to start aching, skin gets trashed, and power inevitably goes down. If I manage to get the project done and then back off the volume, returning to regular training, it takes me around 3 weeks just to reach previous strength levels.

During periods of no rock climbing (lockdown 1, and another 2 month break this year), I religiously stick to the training plan and make massive gains. As I work from home, I'll sometimes train 2-3 times a day, every day, but with very low volume. E.g. on my lunch break I'll do 3 sets of one armers on each arm, at 5pm I might pull on to the board 10 times, and around 9pm perhaps some handstand presses. Everything is very high intensity, but I rarely go to failure and therefore don't tend to accumulate much fatigue. Usually I'm very slow to get recruited, but I'm ALWAYS recruited in this phase and feel very explosive.

Returning to rock, there's a learning time before 'board strength' translates, so regular rock climbing is important for me, but the difficulty is keeping these sessions short as I live 40 min from rock and quickly get obsessed with a boulder (don't we all!)