[Adam Lincoln]

true dat.

That's an ace story! I guess you mean True North though? Pretty sure he never did Northern Lights.

yeah, was true north.
Wonderwall is such a good route. Hard boulder off the deck and then just relentless. The middle shield was always a little friable and footholds were scrittly and I pulled a sidepull edge off that you do a long pull off, going to this cauliflower thing. We stuck it back on and after NIk had swung about on it I pulled it off again and we just never went back.
The edge then sat in my loose change bowl for about 8 years, till I got burglarised and they took my bowl, edge and all!
Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, may I present the accused - Ibbo!
Dunno if a replacement has subsequently been manufactured? or perhaps an alternate sequence found? I'd love to see footage of the ascent as the moves were ace.
felt a full grade harder than something like Unjustified to me.
Very glad Josh has done it. What a weapon! 

Loose change jar isnt as cool as a vase on the mantelpiece.

A hold got added last year to replace the one that was lost.

[andy popp]

A hold got added last year to replace the one that was lost.

How does that work?

[shark]

A hold got added last year to replace the one that was lost.

How does that work?

Don’t know about that one but in other instances an equivalent size and shaped piece of rock is glued on and maybe the filler/glue is moulded to help shape it.

[Will Hunt]

I heard that Love Sculpture at the same crag is named for the glued-on indoor climbing hold which has been shrouded in resin to make it look like real rock...

[ali k]

I heard that Love Sculpture at the same crag is named for the glued-on indoor climbing hold which has been shrouded in resin to make it look like real rock...

Yep. Did a decent job of blending it in to the surrounding rock but it's a horrible hold to use - flares down and traps fingers inside. There's quite a few artificial holds at Yew it turns out.

[Will Hunt]

I heard that Love Sculpture at the same crag is named for the glued-on indoor climbing hold which has been shrouded in resin to make it look like real rock...

Yep. Did a decent job of blending it in to the surrounding rock but it's a horrible hold to use - flares down and traps fingers inside. There's quite a few artificial holds at Yew it turns out.

I'm always quite surprised at just how many frigs there are on limestone when compared to grit. Artificial holds, drilled holds, drilled threads, pre-clipped runners etc etc etc.

[remus]

I'm always quite surprised at just how many frigs there are on limestone when compared to grit. Artificial holds, drilled holds, drilled threads, pre-clipped runners etc etc etc.

Im not sure there's so much difference. Grit has it's fair share of eroded holds, stabilised holds, over-brushing, pegs, weird historic aid bolts, padded vs unpadded ascents.

[Will Hunt]

I'm always quite surprised at just how many frigs there are on limestone when compared to grit. Artificial holds, drilled holds, drilled threads, pre-clipped runners etc etc etc.

Im not sure there's so much difference. Grit has it's fair share of eroded holds, stabilised holds, over-brushing, pegs, weird historic aid bolts, padded vs unpadded ascents.

I don't think there's an equivalence. I'm specifically thinking of intentional interventions/devious practices that seek to change the nature of the climbing but aren't commonly known about or discussed. The stuff highlighted in bold is accidental or chronic. Padded ascents are rarely dressed up as something they're not. The majority of historic aid bolts must now be so old as to be mere decoration. Pegs, I'll grant you, but they're not concealed are they?

[shark]

I'm specifically thinking of intentional interventions/devious practices that seek to change the nature of the climbing but aren't commonly known about or discussed.

It’s precisely the opposite. Glueing an equivalent hold back on seeks to preserve the nature of the climbing

[Will Hunt]

I'm specifically thinking of intentional interventions/devious practices that seek to change the nature of the climbing but aren't commonly known about or discussed.

It’s precisely the opposite. Glueing an equivalent hold back on seeks to preserve the nature of the climbing

I wasn't thinking of the Wonderwall glueing.

And tbf you could debate whether reaffixing holds or trying to recreate holds that have lost a fair fight is a frig (it depends what your view on "the nature of the climbing" is). I'm not suggesting we should - it would be very boring beyond stating the obvious that it's a grey area.

[shark]

WTF does “a fair fight” mean in this context apart from rhetoric.

Think some differentiation between re-affixing and recreating is in order too.

If a route has been attempted or done initially with a hold that comes off it is well established and generally accepted practice to stick it back on. Even on grit.

Recreating an equivalent hold is somewhat greyer but still well accepted practice on limestone to preserve the nature and challenge of a route.

[Bonjoy]

Maybe there's a parallel universe in which no glue is ever employed on limestone and loose holds only get removed when pulled off during ascents. I'm glad I don't live there.

[Will Hunt]

WTF does “a fair fight” mean in this context apart from rhetoric.

Think some differentiation between re-affixing and recreating is in order too.

If a route has been attempted or done initially with a hold that comes off it is well established and generally accepted practice to stick it back on. Even on grit.

Recreating an equivalent hold is somewhat greyer but still well accepted practice on limestone to preserve the nature and challenge of a route.

Maybe there's a parallel universe in which no glue is ever employed on limestone and loose holds only get removed when pulled off during ascents. I'm glad I don't live there.

I think we're talking at cross-purposes. I didn't mention glueing holds back on until you brought it up - I was thinking of Love Sculpture and I suspect you were thinking of Wonderwall.

[shark]

What is the score with the Love Sculpture hold? Was it added where there wasn’t one before rather than a recreation of a hold that came off?

[petejh]

And tbf you could debate whether reaffixing holds or trying to recreate holds that have lost a fair fight is a frig (it depends what your view on "the nature of the climbing" is). I'm not suggesting we should - it would be very boring beyond stating the obvious that it's a grey area.

Actually, some epoxy acrylates are more of a green-brown colour, while some old polyester resins were more reddish.
So it’s more of a grey-green-brown-sometimes even reddish-but sometimes camouflaged with rock dust area.
HTH 


And what Bonjoy said.

[Doylo]

Maybe there's a parallel universe in which no glue is ever employed on limestone and loose holds only get removed when pulled off during ascents. I'm glad I don't live there.

There’s the real world then the internet universe which is best kept out of such matters.

[Will Hunt]

I don't disagree with Bonjoy at all 

[Bonjoy]

I get the distinction you're drawing.
I was responding to to the phrasing:

I'm specifically thinking of intentional interventions/devious practices that seek to change the nature of the climbing but aren't commonly known about or discussed

The '/' suggested 'intentional interventions' were typically equivalent to 'devious practices', and that the lack of common knowledge might potentially be a contrivance by developers to cover up that fact.
There's obviously a lot of shades of grey but typically 'intentional interventions' involve removing or stabilising rock which is going to rip off. Inherently this is changing the nature of the climbing and intentionally so, it's also pragmatically unavoidable and generally considered beneficial by people who climb on lime (and occasionally rip off holds, or experience climbs which are substantially spoiled by hold loss).
Regards common knowledge. I think it's reasonable to say that developers generally don't go out of their way to advertise cleaning and gluing, for a variety of reasons. That's not to say there is an intention to hide or cover up, just that it's a complex and grey area and prone to requiring long winded explanations; it's probably something landowners are best remaining ignorant of; and is perhaps best kept low key to avoid copying by ham fisted punters.

I know you know all that and probably/possibly agree with it. I'm just filling out the small print for anyone reading this who may not understand,.

[northern yob]

I’m bored (school holidays innit)
Interesting thread, very grey area with no real right or wrong! My view is that when developing things need cleaning and stabilising. Using various tactics including glue and hold manufacture etc.
Once the route is climbed, I think sticking things back on to preserve the character/ grade is log. I realise this isn’t a widely held view but I think when holds come off an established route they should stay off. I realise some routes would be lost, but it kinda feels wrong! The less we mess with the rock the better..... trying to freeze a route in time by repairing it just doesn’t quite sit right with me! I realise this isn’t a very coherent or sound argument. Genuinely interested in what other people think, whilst not really being bothered what people do!

[abarro81]

I think it depends on the circumstances...
If it makes the route much less good to climb then consider fixing (though it may still be better to leave it). If it's still just as good, or even better, then don't glue it back on even if the new version is significantly harder/easier.

[northern yob]

I think it depends on the circumstances...
If it makes the route much less good to climb then consider fixing (though it may still be better to leave it). If it's still just as good, or even better, then don't glue it back on even if the new version is significantly harder/easier.

i think that’s probably an even harder  view to justify than mine (at least to me)! Although probably a very popular one.

Someone’s subjective view of if it makes for a better route or not.....  it could certainly be used as justification to do lots of dodgy stuff. It’s not a very black and white subject.

[User deactivated.]

Only climbers will know or care that a hold has been glued, so if a route loses a hold and becomes unclimbable, stick it back on and get back to climbing. No one benefits from leaving it unclimbable

[northern yob]

Only climbers will know or care that a hold has been glued, so if a route loses a hold and becomes unclimbable, stick it back on and get back to climbing. No one benefits from leaving it unclimbable

Who determines what’s possible? History tells us climbers aren’t very good at that! Our ego’s get in the way. Literally 1000’s of routes deemed impossible by people have been climbed by the next generations.

I know exactly what your saying, I’m just playing devil’s advocate.

[abarro81]

Yeah, I have no good rationale for my thinking on this one!

[remus]

I think it depends on the circumstances...
If it makes the route much less good to climb then consider fixing (though it may still be better to leave it). If it's still just as good, or even better, then don't glue it back on even if the new version is significantly harder/easier.

While it might be hard to come up with a logical argument for it I reckon this is probably pretty close to what happens in practice. 99% of the time no one's bothered if another hold comes off a gibson classic and the hold just turns in to more gravel on the floor. The other 1% of the time someone cares enough about the route to glue the hold back on.