[Adam Lincoln]

true dat.

That's an ace story! I guess you mean True North though? Pretty sure he never did Northern Lights.

yeah, was true north.
Wonderwall is such a good route. Hard boulder off the deck and then just relentless. The middle shield was always a little friable and footholds were scrittly and I pulled a sidepull edge off that you do a long pull off, going to this cauliflower thing. We stuck it back on and after NIk had swung about on it I pulled it off again and we just never went back.
The edge then sat in my loose change bowl for about 8 years, till I got burglarised and they took my bowl, edge and all!
Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, may I present the accused - Ibbo!
Dunno if a replacement has subsequently been manufactured? or perhaps an alternate sequence found? I'd love to see footage of the ascent as the moves were ace.
felt a full grade harder than something like Unjustified to me.
Very glad Josh has done it. What a weapon! 

Loose change jar isnt as cool as a vase on the mantelpiece.

A hold got added last year to replace the one that was lost.

[andy popp]

A hold got added last year to replace the one that was lost.

How does that work?

[shark]

A hold got added last year to replace the one that was lost.

How does that work?

Don’t know about that one but in other instances an equivalent size and shaped piece of rock is glued on and maybe the filler/glue is moulded to help shape it.

[Will Hunt]

I heard that Love Sculpture at the same crag is named for the glued-on indoor climbing hold which has been shrouded in resin to make it look like real rock...

[ali k]

I heard that Love Sculpture at the same crag is named for the glued-on indoor climbing hold which has been shrouded in resin to make it look like real rock...

Yep. Did a decent job of blending it in to the surrounding rock but it's a horrible hold to use - flares down and traps fingers inside. There's quite a few artificial holds at Yew it turns out.

[Will Hunt]

I heard that Love Sculpture at the same crag is named for the glued-on indoor climbing hold which has been shrouded in resin to make it look like real rock...

Yep. Did a decent job of blending it in to the surrounding rock but it's a horrible hold to use - flares down and traps fingers inside. There's quite a few artificial holds at Yew it turns out.

I'm always quite surprised at just how many frigs there are on limestone when compared to grit. Artificial holds, drilled holds, drilled threads, pre-clipped runners etc etc etc.

[remus]

I'm always quite surprised at just how many frigs there are on limestone when compared to grit. Artificial holds, drilled holds, drilled threads, pre-clipped runners etc etc etc.

Im not sure there's so much difference. Grit has it's fair share of eroded holds, stabilised holds, over-brushing, pegs, weird historic aid bolts, padded vs unpadded ascents.

[Will Hunt]

I'm always quite surprised at just how many frigs there are on limestone when compared to grit. Artificial holds, drilled holds, drilled threads, pre-clipped runners etc etc etc.

Im not sure there's so much difference. Grit has it's fair share of eroded holds, stabilised holds, over-brushing, pegs, weird historic aid bolts, padded vs unpadded ascents.

I don't think there's an equivalence. I'm specifically thinking of intentional interventions/devious practices that seek to change the nature of the climbing but aren't commonly known about or discussed. The stuff highlighted in bold is accidental or chronic. Padded ascents are rarely dressed up as something they're not. The majority of historic aid bolts must now be so old as to be mere decoration. Pegs, I'll grant you, but they're not concealed are they?

[shark]

I'm specifically thinking of intentional interventions/devious practices that seek to change the nature of the climbing but aren't commonly known about or discussed.

It’s precisely the opposite. Glueing an equivalent hold back on seeks to preserve the nature of the climbing

[Will Hunt]

I'm specifically thinking of intentional interventions/devious practices that seek to change the nature of the climbing but aren't commonly known about or discussed.

It’s precisely the opposite. Glueing an equivalent hold back on seeks to preserve the nature of the climbing

I wasn't thinking of the Wonderwall glueing.

And tbf you could debate whether reaffixing holds or trying to recreate holds that have lost a fair fight is a frig (it depends what your view on "the nature of the climbing" is). I'm not suggesting we should - it would be very boring beyond stating the obvious that it's a grey area.

[shark]

WTF does “a fair fight” mean in this context apart from rhetoric.

Think some differentiation between re-affixing and recreating is in order too.

If a route has been attempted or done initially with a hold that comes off it is well established and generally accepted practice to stick it back on. Even on grit.

Recreating an equivalent hold is somewhat greyer but still well accepted practice on limestone to preserve the nature and challenge of a route.

[Bonjoy]

Maybe there's a parallel universe in which no glue is ever employed on limestone and loose holds only get removed when pulled off during ascents. I'm glad I don't live there.

[Will Hunt]

WTF does “a fair fight” mean in this context apart from rhetoric.

Think some differentiation between re-affixing and recreating is in order too.

If a route has been attempted or done initially with a hold that comes off it is well established and generally accepted practice to stick it back on. Even on grit.

Recreating an equivalent hold is somewhat greyer but still well accepted practice on limestone to preserve the nature and challenge of a route.

Maybe there's a parallel universe in which no glue is ever employed on limestone and loose holds only get removed when pulled off during ascents. I'm glad I don't live there.

I think we're talking at cross-purposes. I didn't mention glueing holds back on until you brought it up - I was thinking of Love Sculpture and I suspect you were thinking of Wonderwall.

[shark]

What is the score with the Love Sculpture hold? Was it added where there wasn’t one before rather than a recreation of a hold that came off?

[petejh]

And tbf you could debate whether reaffixing holds or trying to recreate holds that have lost a fair fight is a frig (it depends what your view on "the nature of the climbing" is). I'm not suggesting we should - it would be very boring beyond stating the obvious that it's a grey area.

Actually, some epoxy acrylates are more of a green-brown colour, while some old polyester resins were more reddish.
So it’s more of a grey-green-brown-sometimes even reddish-but sometimes camouflaged with rock dust area.
HTH 


And what Bonjoy said.

[Doylo]

Maybe there's a parallel universe in which no glue is ever employed on limestone and loose holds only get removed when pulled off during ascents. I'm glad I don't live there.

There’s the real world then the internet universe which is best kept out of such matters.

[Will Hunt]

I don't disagree with Bonjoy at all 

[Bonjoy]

I get the distinction you're drawing.
I was responding to to the phrasing:

I'm specifically thinking of intentional interventions/devious practices that seek to change the nature of the climbing but aren't commonly known about or discussed

The '/' suggested 'intentional interventions' were typically equivalent to 'devious practices', and that the lack of common knowledge might potentially be a contrivance by developers to cover up that fact.
There's obviously a lot of shades of grey but typically 'intentional interventions' involve removing or stabilising rock which is going to rip off. Inherently this is changing the nature of the climbing and intentionally so, it's also pragmatically unavoidable and generally considered beneficial by people who climb on lime (and occasionally rip off holds, or experience climbs which are substantially spoiled by hold loss).
Regards common knowledge. I think it's reasonable to say that developers generally don't go out of their way to advertise cleaning and gluing, for a variety of reasons. That's not to say there is an intention to hide or cover up, just that it's a complex and grey area and prone to requiring long winded explanations; it's probably something landowners are best remaining ignorant of; and is perhaps best kept low key to avoid copying by ham fisted punters.

I know you know all that and probably/possibly agree with it. I'm just filling out the small print for anyone reading this who may not understand,.

[northern yob]

I’m bored (school holidays innit)
Interesting thread, very grey area with no real right or wrong! My view is that when developing things need cleaning and stabilising. Using various tactics including glue and hold manufacture etc.
Once the route is climbed, I think sticking things back on to preserve the character/ grade is log. I realise this isn’t a widely held view but I think when holds come off an established route they should stay off. I realise some routes would be lost, but it kinda feels wrong! The less we mess with the rock the better..... trying to freeze a route in time by repairing it just doesn’t quite sit right with me! I realise this isn’t a very coherent or sound argument. Genuinely interested in what other people think, whilst not really being bothered what people do!

[abarro81]

I think it depends on the circumstances...
If it makes the route much less good to climb then consider fixing (though it may still be better to leave it). If it's still just as good, or even better, then don't glue it back on even if the new version is significantly harder/easier.

[northern yob]

I think it depends on the circumstances...
If it makes the route much less good to climb then consider fixing (though it may still be better to leave it). If it's still just as good, or even better, then don't glue it back on even if the new version is significantly harder/easier.

i think that’s probably an even harder  view to justify than mine (at least to me)! Although probably a very popular one.

Someone’s subjective view of if it makes for a better route or not.....  it could certainly be used as justification to do lots of dodgy stuff. It’s not a very black and white subject.

[User deactivated.]

Only climbers will know or care that a hold has been glued, so if a route loses a hold and becomes unclimbable, stick it back on and get back to climbing. No one benefits from leaving it unclimbable

[northern yob]

Only climbers will know or care that a hold has been glued, so if a route loses a hold and becomes unclimbable, stick it back on and get back to climbing. No one benefits from leaving it unclimbable

Who determines what’s possible? History tells us climbers aren’t very good at that! Our ego’s get in the way. Literally 1000’s of routes deemed impossible by people have been climbed by the next generations.

I know exactly what your saying, I’m just playing devil’s advocate.

[abarro81]

Yeah, I have no good rationale for my thinking on this one!

[remus]

I think it depends on the circumstances...
If it makes the route much less good to climb then consider fixing (though it may still be better to leave it). If it's still just as good, or even better, then don't glue it back on even if the new version is significantly harder/easier.

While it might be hard to come up with a logical argument for it I reckon this is probably pretty close to what happens in practice. 99% of the time no one's bothered if another hold comes off a gibson classic and the hold just turns in to more gravel on the floor. The other 1% of the time someone cares enough about the route to glue the hold back on.

[Bonjoy]

The difficulty (illustrated by points above) of what to do about post-ascent hold loss is one of the main reasons I prefer that developers try their utmost to remove looseness prior to the FA and pre-emptively glue whatever remains which looks likely to become loose in time.

That said if the above fails and a 40m classic is rendered unclimbable* by a hold loss it seems insane to me to leave it forevermore unclimbable 'on principle'. In part because I don't understand what principle it fulfils. If you accept that lime needs any cleaning/gluing pre-ascent then surely you have already violated the principle. And if you accept this makes sense on a 40m classic then you have to ask why it would not apply on a climb of lesser stature, or at what point it ceases to apply.

To my mind the most logically consistent first guiding principle is to maintain climbs in an enjoyable/usable condition. Obviously other principles moderate how far this is taken, but to me it is the best course of action where there isn't a compelling reason to do otherwise.

* sometimes (not always) it really is clear cut that something is totally unclimbable

[teestub]

Bonjoy what’s your view on the work that went in with Mecca? That seemed to be a step above ‘hold replacement’ with the volume requiring sticking back on, and I remember that it was climbable without the block, albeit harder.

[SA Chris]

with the volume requiring sticking back on

Sticking artificial holds is in some cases just about acceptable, but sticking a volume on is taking the piss

[Bonjoy]

Bonjoy what’s your view on the work that went in with Mecca? That seemed to be a step above ‘hold replacement’ with the volume requiring sticking back on, and I remember that it was climbable without the block, albeit harder.

I think at the time I argued against it on UKB, partly because it seemed a bit OTT, but possibly also because it was the route I was most sick of in the Peak by then. On reflection I think Kris did a good restoration job and the outcome is satisfactory. It's hard to know if the climb as it would have been (and all the extensions) would have been a net gain for Peak climbing, as only Steve had done the holdless version and he seems more ming tolerant than most. It was definitely on the far end of the hold repair spectrum, but perhaps the history and nature of the route justified it.

[northern yob]

[quote

* sometimes (not always) it really is clear cut that something is totally unclimbable
[/quote]

Agreed, but sometimes not always people get it wrong, in my tiny mind the logical way to remove that is to have no grey area that’s open to interpretation. As I said above I know this doesn’t make sense, but glueing things back on just feels wrong to me. I can completely relate to what your saying. I think in general we do pretty well ,and the status quo works most of the time, I just can’t shake the slightly wrong feeling.

[nik at work]

Can’t claim to have any especially strong feeling on this one, certainly not in the middle grey area, beyond letting those close to the coal face sort it out (potential suitors, people who like fixing holds, first ascentionists(?)).
However in this particular case I am slightly curious about what was stuck in place. The hold came off several years ago and was subsequently stolen. I’m sure Adam said that the replacement hold was stuck on last year. Just wondering who stuck it on? And how did they know what to stick on? To be clear this is curiosity not suggesting some has just slapped a whopper jug on the wall (unless someone has stuck a whopper jug on the wall??).

[teestub]

Nik on this topic your sterling work at Mytholm is still going strong!

[kc]

Bonjoy what’s your view on the work that went in with Mecca? That seemed to be a step above ‘hold replacement’ with the volume requiring sticking back on, and I remember that it was climbable without the block, albeit harder.

When Steve prised the Mecca block to the ground and subsequently repeated the route with ease, he I suspect and many others would have agreed that his opinion of the difficulty was somewhat jaded. He was regular running laps up Mecca at the time so even doing 10 pull ups with a rucksack full of bricks on the starting holds prior wasn't going to make it feel a lot harder.
It wasn't just put back on without consultation though. I had already done the route 5 Years previously so had no vested interest but I remember belaying Stu L on the new boulder problem start. He certainly didn't mind the idea of it being harder and udging the grade. He proceeded to dispatch the moves without much difficulty but thought it was a bit shit and ming ruining the flow.
My motivation was more technical. I sat back quietly for a few weeks listening to the debates and methods. Loads of people came up with ridiculous ideas and the old guard should be bought together to solve the issue but I knew exactly how to proceed so said nothing.
With the help of Keith we got it back on stronger than ever and with the advent of the Knee pad it had dropped a grade and become a trade route.

[Fiend]

So what's ruined Mecca more, gluing the starting blocks back on, or using kneepads?? 

[nik at work]

Nik on this topic your sterling work at Mytholm is still going strong!

Glad to hear it 

[Adam Lincoln]

Can’t claim to have any especially strong feeling on this one, certainly not in the middle grey area, beyond letting those close to the coal face sort it out (potential suitors, people who like fixing holds, first ascentionists(?)).
However in this particular case I am slightly curious about what was stuck in place. The hold came off several years ago and was subsequently stolen. I’m sure Adam said that the replacement hold was stuck on last year. Just wondering who stuck it on? And how did they know what to stick on? To be clear this is curiosity not suggesting some has just slapped a whopper jug on the wall (unless someone has stuck a whopper jug on the wall??).

By talking in depth with Ian. Will that do?

[Rob F]

I'm staying well out of this one.

A few years ago I pulled an undercut about the size of a lemon off the top traverse on Statement.

I wouldn't like to think that my failure to glue the hold back on at that time would contribute in any way to future aspirants having a prolonged seige.



Will put the hold on eBay if anyone thinks this necessary???

[shark]

The difficulty (illustrated by points above) of what to do about post-ascent hold loss is one of the main reasons I prefer that developers try their utmost to remove looseness prior to the FA and pre-emptively glue whatever remains which looks likely to become loose in time.

Nice illustration of somebody doing this at 5.50

[Fiend]

Well tested at 7:20 as well!

[edshakey]

9:41, he shows off the latest in high performance technology for harnesses. Surprised none of the Olympic athletes chose one of these for the lead routes.

[SA Chris]

Such a nice guy, and useful to have nearby if you have an accident and end up damaging yourself, as a mate of mine can testify to.

[mrjonathanr]

Lovely film. 8a+ and full time anaesthetist. Impressive!

[SA Chris]

Randomly bumped into him at the local climbing wall a few years back when he was doing locum work at the local hospital.

I said hi.